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New Year's Honours


Choir Man

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James O'Donnell has been appointed as Lieutenant of The Royal Victorian Order upon his retiremnt from Westminster Abbey. This honour is the personal gift of the Monarch so he wasn't mentioned on any of the government lists.

Scanning through the full honours list I found 28 other ciations for music, but I don't think any went to organists.

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Yet just look at the list of recently-retired senior civil servants and military officers, among others in the public sector.  They get K's and lesser awards automatically, the actual award depending on the pay grade they retired at.  It's the surest way for someone previously outside the public sector to get an honour - so former captains of industry queue up in middle age to get short-term appointments in the civil service and 10 years later retire with a K provided they didn't blot their copy book too badly.

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The LVO was the very least that JO'D might have been awarded and in view of his long period of service and with the Royal Family in and out of the Abbey for hatch, match and dispatch quite frequently during that time, I'm disappointed it wasn't a CVO. There is no comparison with the other walks of life as Colin surmises. The other thing is that retiring senior church musicians were frequently - (pretty much, de facto) - given a DMus by Lambeth, but the present Archbishop seems to have put a stop to all that. Aberdeen gave JO'D a DMus about ten years ago, but shame on the universities around London who dole out honorary doctorates to so-called celebs but seem to forget the serious people in music who have not thought of him and others. Cambridge, his alma mater, as I understand it, has a policy of NOT awarding honorary doctorates to its alumni. 

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I won't be the only one here who writhes around on the carpet foaming at the mouth at the mention of honorary doctorates doled out to the vacuous undeserving, being one of the mere oiks who spent over three years getting mine (not in music but it doesn't affect the argument) by doing research and then defending it at examination.

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I will admit to feeling uneasy about honours being awarded to people for just being good at their job.  Surely we should all be striving to do that? 
An award for services beyond the call of duty I can live with.

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2 hours ago, Colin Pykett said:

"...mere oiks..."

In these curious days of woke and political correctness, I am delighted to see that oik is still current. It is a long time since I heard the term and never before in connection with Doctorates. It is a nice point whether Doctorates have become déclassé or oiks are now upwardly mobile. I believe that the Royal Family can now boast a couple of oiks.

Mr Thomas Colmer (1891-1970), organ builder, Lewis & Co Ltd 1904-1919, Henry Willis & Sons Ltd  1919-1964, a man to whom I owe much, had the single derogatory term sewer-box, accompanied if the subject was a motorist by the imprecation, “…hope your wheel comes off”.

My grandmother (1887-1965) would have called oiksyahoos’, a general term for the many who earned her disapprobation, regardless of class. My Father (1902-1980) would have used scoundrel, a term he mostly used for any politician of any colour. There was a hint, I think, in scoundrel of an education that went no lower than Stowe. As with most military men, he could not abide Civil Servants (no longer civil, no longer servants) whom he termed ‘stripey-arsed bastards from Woking’. Bottom of the scale comes rascal, which I think is the basis of Liverpool’s scally. The educational inference of rascal is no higher than Stowe.

I am obliged to say it is entirely possible that in the fifty and more years since the time of which I write, Stowe, like oik, has risen in the public estimation.

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On 03/01/2023 at 11:53, Bruce Buchanan said:

I am obliged to say it is entirely possible that in the fifty and more years since the time of which I write, Stowe, like oik, has risen in the public estimation.

I doubt it but would like to think so, if only to confound those who know me probably confirming that it still fits.  When I was the said oik, toiling over my PhD research, it was indeed c. 55 years ago.  So your timescale fits as well.  How fascinating in terms of social history.

But as to Stowe I do not knowe, so cannot natter 'bout the matter.

On 03/01/2023 at 11:53, Bruce Buchanan said:

Mr Thomas Colmer (1891-1970), organ builder, Lewis & Co Ltd 1904-1919, Henry Willis & Sons Ltd  1919-1964, a man to whom I owe much, had the single derogatory term sewer-box

This is also an interesting throwback.  I'm not sure what a sewer-box might have been, other than a particularly unsatisfactory swell box perhaps in terms of the sounds which emanated from it, but your reminiscence reminded me of a letter W T Best wrote in 1895 (I can't immediately recall to whom) about the Hope-Jones organ then under construction in Worcester cathedral:

protest shd be made regarding that impudent charlatan's doings at Worcester; as you know, he has only been a kind of sewer-maker between 'pipe' and 'key'

So here we have another reference to sewage in the organ world from around the same time.  Perhaps an early manifestation of British lavatory humour?  It's fair to say, however, that one whom I'm sure we both respect was unhappy about the term 'charlatan'.  He wrote:

whatever else he might have been, he was certainly no charlatan

(W C (Billy) Jones, voicer employed by H-J, no relation)

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8 hours ago, Colin Pykett said:

I won't be the only one here who writhes around on the carpet foaming at the mouth at the mention of honorary doctorates doled out to the vacuous undeserving, being one of the mere oiks who spent over three years getting mine (not in music but it doesn't affect the argument) by doing research and then defending it at examination.

You and me both!!!

There used to be a Cathedral organist who styled himself Dr. ........................... He had an Hon D, Mus. and hadn't even been through the mill at a half decent University!! In truth he wasn't much of a player either!

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William McKie - knighthood

Douglas Guest - CVO

Simon Preston - CBE

Martin Neary - LVO

James O'Donnell - LVO

 

It seems that being the Abbey's organist has gradually reduced in honours-worthiness over the last century.  McKie, of course, provided the Queen's coronation.  But then James O'Donnell has provided her funeral (amongst several other big occasions).  Times change it seems - although it could be argued that the latest incumbent has provided a large contribution to national music/life over the last 20 years or so.

 

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Of the above, Simon Preston’s CBE is the exception, a Civil List honour, I believe.  As Choir Man explained above, Honours of the Royal Victorian Order are in the Sovereign’s personal gift for distinguished personal service to the Sovereign.  Martin Neary’s LVO was for the music at the funeral of Diana, Princess of Wales.  At St Paul’s Christopher Dearnley and John Scott were similarly honoured - royal weddings and possibly other royal events.  Douglas Guest’s was indeed a higher rank at CVO.  Sir William McKie was an MVO as well as his Knighthood, awarded respectively for the music at our late Queen’s wedding in 1947 and Coronation in 1953.  Christopher Robinson is CVO and Sidney Campbell was MVO, both, I assume, for their service at St George’s Chapel Windsor.  So there are some variations among these.

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I think it's overseeing the music at a Coronation which is by convention the crucial thing as far as knighthoods for Abbey organists go. And there's nothing to stop James O'Donnell receiving another honour at a later stage-  but I'd be surprised if he's all that bothered, to be honest.

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20 hours ago, Rowland Wateridge said:

Sir William McKie was an MVO as well as his Knighthood, awarded respectively for the music at our late Queen’s wedding in 1947 and Coronation in 1953.  Christopher Robinson is CVO and Sidney Campbell was MVO, both, I assume, for their service at St George’s Chapel Windsor.  So there are some variations among these.

Until 1985, the post-nominal 'MVO' was used for both MVO (fourth class) and MVO (fifth class). Both McKie and Campbell were appointed MVO (fourth class) - in other words, what is today an LVO. Christopher Robinson was appointed LVO in 1986 before being promoted to CVO on his move from Windsor to Cambridge. For a church musician at the royal peculiars/St Paul's/W Abbey, such a promotion within the Order as Dr Robinson's is rare.

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When Harry Gabb (Master of the Music at the Chapel Royal, and Sub-organist of St Paul's, in the days when the two jobs  could be combined) received his MVO in ? 1961?   some of us choristers at St Paul's (including Martin Cooke's big brother Richard) demanded to know what these initials stood for.  We were not familiar with them.  He told us (with a twinkle in his eye) ...."Merely  Very Old"

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Apologies for missing Harry Gabb from the list as I do remember him, but as a very occasional member of the congregation in my case, at Sunday 6.30 pm Evensong, and it would have been around that time as I started work in the City in 1960.  Richard Popplewell was the other organist I remember at that service, and having just checked, he was LVO!  

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5 hours ago, S_L said:

There used to be a Cathedral organist who styled himself Dr. ........................... He had an Hon D, Mus. and hadn't even been through the mill at a half decent University!! In truth he wasn't much of a player either!

I don't really understand this. If he was offered and accepted an honorary doctorate why wouldn't he call himself Doctor?

If you're saying that he shouldn't have been given the doctorate - or should have refused it - that's a rather different issue, I think.

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36 minutes ago, Rowland Wateridge said:

Apologies for missing Harry Gabb from the list as I do remember him, but as a very occasional member of the congregation in my case, at Sunday 6.30 pm Evensong, and it would have been around that time as I started work in the City in 1960.  Richard Popplewell was the other organist I remember at that service, and having just checked, he was LVO!  

No need to apologise, Rowland. I wasn't trying to trip you up by listing people you hadn't mentioned!   You will have seen me there!!

I just wanted to point out how modest Harry (and his contemporaries) were about such things.  Harry got an LVO when he eventually retired from the Chapel Royal some years later.

The 6.30pm (second) Evensong at St Paul's  was an "interesting event".  It was sung by 20 (out of 30) Cathedral Choristers, supported by volunteer altos, tenors and basses of the "Special Service Choir".  There was a rota, and we had two weeks "ON" and one week "OFF".  Probationers were rostered to sing with the choristers.  Being "on" was a bit of a pain because it precluded us going out with our parents for tea after the first evensong, and only those who were "Off" were allowed to change out of their Eton Suits after the first evensong. As we had already sung three services, we were allowed to leave before the sermon, but we still missed part of the time allocated for watching television!! 

At about the time you are talking about, Harry handed over the special service choir to Richard, who was the no 3 organist.  He had a windmill styles of conducting, but was extremely vulnerable to catching the striplight on the conductor's music stand with his surplice (no slits in the sleeves in those days), whereupon the light would rotate and light up his feet.  No giggling was allowed! 

Richard succeeded Harry at the Chapel Royal, and got his LVO when he retired from that post.  Richard passed the Special Service Choir baton on to Minor Canon Cecil Cochrane, BMus(Cantab) who was a talented former Director of Music at Christs' Hospital, but whose liking for "the bottle" had rather got the better of him.   I'll stop there!!

 

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I have vivid memories of that service and the ‘Willis on Wheels’ as discussed on earlier threads.  I mentioned that I remembered both organists wearing long surplices with full sleeves.  I’m clear in my recollection that they also wore wing collars and a white (evening) bow tie.  Do you think there is any possibility that they continued to wear these after officiating at the Chapel Royal?  

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3 hours ago, sbarber49 said:

I don't really understand this. If he was offered and accepted an honorary doctorate why wouldn't he call himself Doctor?

If you're saying that he shouldn't have been given the doctorate - or should have refused it - that's a rather different issue, I think.

I suspect that the original concern, with which I wholeheartedly relate, possibly arose from a perceived unfairness of having attained an award from academic diligence and toil but subsequently having that effort effectively devalued by the same award being conferred upon another substantially less deserving, often for quasi-political reasons. This is such a pity for it is entirely "meet and proper" for there to be public recognition of notable achievement, particularly where there is demonstrable public benefit - it seems a growing number of gongs is being metered out to the increasingly undeserving.

I'm inclined to think that should my name be put forward for anything like this, I would have the honesty to decline on the basis that the whole honours system has become debased and that my self regard substantially would be diminished in finding myself in the company of the pop-celebrity which now seems a prerequisite for such things.

I know he's not one of us but perhaps Sir Andras Schiff should be included in the alumni. I do like his Bach.

 

 

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12 hours ago, sbarber49 said:

I don't really understand this. If he was offered and accepted an honorary doctorate why wouldn't he call himself Doctor?

If you're saying that he shouldn't have been given the doctorate - or should have refused it - that's a rather different issue, I think.

What i am saying, and what I think Dr. Colin Pykett is saying, is that those of us who spent years and years working and eventually defending our Doctorates should be entitled to be addressed as Dr. Merely being given one for doing a job, albeit for a rather long time, rather downgrades our efforts!

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Fair enough. I understand that. I was just not sure why this particular cathedral organist was described as having "styled himself Dr. ............".

If he was given an Honorary Doctorate he wasn't doing anything wrong or deceitful by doing so and was entitled to be addressed as Dr. Whether or not he should have been given the honour or, indeed, if there should be such things as honorary doctorates is a different issue and I have sympathy with your views on that.

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16 hours ago, Robert Bowles said:

[...] Harry got an LVO when he eventually retired from the Chapel Royal some years later.

Harry was appointed MVO (fourth class) - now known as LVO - in the 1961 Birthday Honours and promoted to CVO in the 1974 New Year Honours on his retirement. 

16 hours ago, Robert Bowles said:

[...] Richard succeeded Harry at the Chapel Royal, and got his LVO when he retired from that post. 

 

Richard was promoted to LVO on his retirement having been appointed MVO in the 1990 Birthday Honours.

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