Warrington Parr Hall Cavaillé-Coll

[DHM]

It was announced yesterday that the Cavaillé-Coll organ in Parr Hall, Warrington has been sampled for a well-known "virtual pipe organ" software program.
I hope this might raise the profile of this apparently neglected organ and re-awaken interest in it.
The sample-set producer said:
"The organ has 3 manuals and some 45 speaking stops, including a 32' in pedal, but it is still a chamber organ, voiced originally to fit a small private room.
I must confess that I have never heard such tender and refined voicing before.
This sample set will be a true revelation, because it is so special among other Cavaillé-Coll's production, and also because the organ is today somewhat forgotten, almost unused for any public performance. The sample-set is due for release in about two months."

[Peter Allison]

about b***** time. People like Christine Jose Rigby have been trying to keep the CC organ at the forefront, but greatly let down by the Warrington Borough Council, who just want it to rot, then can bin it (imho)

[Nic DAVIDSON PORTER]

Excellent news indeed! 

I am afraid that every time the name Warrington pops up, I am reminded of the Peter Sellers sketch involving the past-it thespian trying to cash a cheque... 

[Nic DAVIDSON PORTER]

On a more serious note, is it known yet if the sample set will be "pure" C-C, or will it have the HW additions &c.? 

[pwhodges]

That supplier typically offers both possibilities (and even if there are any additions, the original will be untouched and fully documented so you can restrict yourself to it, as is true with any sample seta for that software).

Of course, some additional options are part of the software, and cannot be omitted - but they typically have a separate interface from the sample set's console (an example is that the software allows any manuals to be coupled).

Paul

[sbarber49]

More info here:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/660405240701596/posts/7965402740201773/?refid=18&paipv=0&eav=AfYrOZZtxr8p1LWpEVTxxMBuIMFFSOb65_R6nAq1Fmtf0V3wP9BPQopkfnl--FhF2XM

[Nic DAVIDSON PORTER]

Thank you both very much for replies/info/links. 

I DO hope most fervently that the authorities don't see the "Hauptwerk ing" of this glorious instrument as an opportunity to... ahem... wash their hands... 

[Colin Pykett]

If you want to hear the real thing, the late Roger Fisher issued an enjoyable CD recorded from sessions in 1984 and 2011.  Wealden Studios WS 221.  Their website suggests that it's still available.  The Wikipedia article about the organ says that other recordings were also made but I don't know about their availability, nor have I heard them.

[pwhodges]

The (self-published?) CD on the late Roger Fisher's website is made up from the Wealden Studios recordings and later ones; Wealden Studios themselves vanished sometime later in the 1980s.

I hope his family are keeping the sales of his recordings going.

Paul

[Peter Allison]

13 hours ago, Nic DAVIDSON PORTER said:

Thank you both very much for replies/info/links. 

I DO hope most fervently that the authorities don't see the "Hauptwerk ing" of this glorious instrument as an opportunity to... ahem... wash their hands... 

Too late I reckon. After the late lamented Sheffield comings and goings, am sure they just want rid, and to hell with any public outcry from a few. I would have thought that quite a high percentage of the general public in that area don't really care, especially at this time of high personal bills etc.

[John Furse]

Being a Bear of Little Brain, there are several aspects of this sorry state of affairs I find puzzling. (I have not scrolled through any previous threads.)

This is an historic and, presumably, fine-sounding (if not much, much better) instrument. I can find no recordings to which to listen online. If I have missed any, please point me in their direction.

Attempts to restore the organ in situ (the most desirable solution in many ways), or move it into a nearby location, seem to have failed. Have serious efforts been made, therefore, to sell it to a worthy buyer, who would treasure it ? If they want rid of it, do the local authorities not wish for the funds this would provide for the benefit of their council tax-payers ?

If it is not wanted locally, its preservation and restoration is of the utmost importance. Has no other venue (sacred or secular) expressed an interest ? With the sale of (possibly) much less historic organs overseas, this seems incredible.

[Colin Pykett]

1 hour ago, Peter Allison said:

Too late I reckon. After the late lamented Sheffield comings and goings, am sure they just want rid, and to hell with any public outcry from a few. I would have thought that quite a high percentage of the general public in that area don't really care, especially at this time of high personal bills etc.

I was simultaneously amused and impressed by the link below describing an AGO event designed to promote deliberately the 'scary and spooky' image of the pipe organ:

https://www.ctpublic.org/news/2021-10-27/why-is-the-pipe-organ-so-scary

What an excellent idea!  I wonder whether there might be mileage in putting on something similar at Warrington to showcase the instrument and bring it closer to public awareness in the area?  The idea came to mind last night while I was listening to Roger Fisher's CD of the instrument which I mentioned above.  At the time I was listening to Franck's Fantaisie in A, a solid 14 minutes' worth of music that might well be described as scary (or gloomy or boring?) by some listeners, regardless of what we organ nuts might think about it.

I've said previously that, if we want to sell the organ to the public, we shouldn't make the mistake of thinking that we are selling it to ourselves.  It's no good preaching to the choir.  The public out there should be regarded as customers for a product, who need to be attracted by presenting it in ways which we ourselves might well find surprising and possibly distasteful.

In the Warrington context, and particularly in the context of this topic, perhaps a battle-of-the-organs type of event could be staged when the new sample set becomes available, in which the electronic and real versions of the instrument are compared and contrasted.  One can envisage some sort of competition in which the audience (or those among them who want to participate) are either blindfolded or asked to turn round while pieces are played on both instruments.  They then assign marks which are later totted up and announced as the 'winner'.  It's been done before of course, and it usually goes down well and in some cases has attracted news media attention.  Of course, I guess the problem with this idea would arise if the winner was the electronic version ...

[Peter Allison]

On 19/03/2023 at 08:02, John Furse said:

Being a Bear of Little Brain, there are several aspects of this sorry state of affairs I find puzzling. (I have not scrolled through any previous threads.)

This is an historic and, presumably, fine-sounding (if not much, much better) instrument. I can find no recordings to which to listen online. If I have missed any, please point me in their direction.

Attempts to restore the organ in situ (the most desirable solution in many ways), or move it into a nearby location, seem to have failed. Have serious efforts been made, therefore, to sell it to a worthy buyer, who would treasure it ? If they want rid of it, do the local authorities not wish for the funds this would provide for the benefit of their council tax-payers ?

If it is not wanted locally, its preservation and restoration is of the utmost importance. Has no other venue (sacred or secular) expressed an interest ? With the sale of (possibly) much less historic organs overseas, this seems incredible.

John, from what I have gleaned from the Warrington CC situation, there are some people (organists/pro builders and non professionals alike) that there is a concerted effort been made to do something positive, but sadly (from the Facebook page) its falling on deaf ears of the halls owners ( WBC) If anyone wanted to purchase it, they would have to find an extreme amount of money (North of a million £, so am told) then restore it. As for any concerts on it, think I went to the last one a few years ago

[John Furse]

Thank you, Peter.

I skimmed that Facebook page, too, and was surprised that such a worthy collection of knowledgeable folk could not 'make inroads' with the local authority.

It does not quite make sense that they seem prepared to allow such a sum of money go to waste, as it were. Nonetheless, a million quid is not necessarily an absurd amount, when one thinks of what would be purchased. OK, another very large amount would be necessary for relocation and restoration. However, I feel sure that possibilities exist - sadly, these may not be in the UK.

If this seeming lack of concern, nay disregard, for an historic treasure persists, I wonder whether it merits an approach to The Local Government and Social Care Ombudsman.

[John Furse]

I failed to acknowledge Colin's contribution. (Yesterday was rather frenetic.)

Anything and everything should be done to save this instrument (which I still haven't heard in any way) from the skip.

[SomeChap]

I am lucky enough to have played this organ back in the 90s.   I can confirm she has superstar qualities,

Actually I wonder (idly) if she's the sort of organ who could do with a name - like the Collins in Orford, which I understand has been christened Anna Magdalena?  Marie-Claire perhaps?  Or Dame Gillian?  Every little helps, as they say!

[Nic DAVIDSON PORTER]

Marie-Claire is a BRILLIANT idea!! 

[Adnosad]

On 17/03/2023 at 08:00, Peter Allison said:

about b***** time. People like Christine Jose Rigby have been trying to keep the CC organ at the forefront, but greatly let down by the Warrington Borough Council, who just want it to rot, then can bin it (imho)

In tandem with the thread issued by H& H the timing of this is interesting.

Yes, CJR has done magnificent work over the years in attempting to keep this instrument going . It all comes down to those nasty economics again.   Warrington Council are very limited in what financial provisions they can make to " keep it going " they have to balance the books and their are other more important considerations at stake within the Warrington region.

The Council have a double edged problem with the instrument; they obviously cannot afford the running costs and neither can they afford the costs involved with scrapping either.

The ideal relocation for this instrument if it were possible at all, would be at Gorton just down the road- but the cost!!!

I think we need to remove our rose tinted specs and dreamy romantic visions re` heritage generally.  We bang on endlessly about  " preserving our heritage".  and  " national treasures " whilst in reality we are spending loads of money on future nightmares for a  generation to inherit, which in all honesty couldn`t really care less. Why should they care? It is all " old stuff " to them.

The only way forward is, like it or not, digital. I am glad that the sound of this magnificent instrument is being preserved for the future in this format.    One only has to look on the Johanus site and to see the fantastic recreation they have made of the instrument in the Oude Kirke,  complete with replica consul.

In Liverpool a magnificent state of the art auditorium has been opened on  The University campus. I believe that plans are currently being mooted for the installation of an organ .   Space will be limited so an equally state of the art instrument  should be installed.

I will depart before  " The toaster "  brigade start whinging.

 

[Peter Allison]

21 hours ago, Adnosad said:

In tandem with the thread issued by H& H the timing of this is interesting.

Yes, CJR has done magnificent work over the years in attempting to keep this instrument going . It all comes down to those nasty economics again.   Warrington Council are very limited in what financial provisions they can make to " keep it going " they have to balance the books and their are other more important considerations at stake within the Warrington region.

The Council have a double edged problem with the instrument; they obviously cannot afford the running costs and neither can they afford the costs involved with scrapping either.

The ideal relocation for this instrument if it were possible at all, would be at Gorton just down the road- but the cost!!!

I think we need to remove our rose tinted specs and dreamy romantic visions re` heritage generally.  We bang on endlessly about  " preserving our heritage".  and  " national treasures " whilst in reality we are spending loads of money on future nightmares for a  generation to inherit, which in all honesty couldn`t really care less. Why should they care? It is all " old stuff " to them.

The only way forward is, like it or not, digital. I am glad that the sound of this magnificent instrument is being preserved for the future in this format.    One only has to look on the Johanus site and to see the fantastic recreation they have made of the instrument in the Oude Kirke,  complete with replica consul.

In Liverpool a magnificent state of the art auditorium has been opened on  The University campus. I believe that plans are currently being mooted for the installation of an organ .   Space will be limited so an equally state of the art instrument  should be installed.

I will depart before  " The toaster "  brigade start whinging.

Yes, digital is the only way forward as you say, its a shame, but in the financial straits of 2023 etc..., lets face it, only a handful of people seem to be talk about preserving what we have now, and walk the walk, and when we are dead, who is going to really give a hoot😏

 

 

[Martin Cooke]

On 01/04/2023 at 10:06, Adnosad said:

The only way forward is, like it or not, digital. I am glad that the sound of this magnificent instrument is being preserved for the future in this format.    One only has to look on the Johanus site and to see the fantastic recreation they have made of the instrument in the Oude Kirke,  complete with replica consul.

 

I fear there is a certain inevitability about what Adnosad says here, but the trick, as it were, with pipe organs and preservation is surely to try to discourage everyone from wanting to preserve every last pipe organ regardless of inherent quality. In a way, organs like this one in Warrington Parr Hall are under threat because the sheep are in with the goats. Somehow or other, a way has to be found that preserves the finest instruments at the expense, if necessary of those of less satisfactory quality and provenance. To some extent this is happening and we quite frequently read of transplants - without thinking too deeply, I can think of the Nicholson job in York, we had Orford more recently, and St John's Cambridge is coming up. So that's great. But we must be prepared to acknowledge that not every pipe organ is equally worthy of more time, energy and money being spent on it. 

[Nic DAVIDSON PORTER]

10 hours ago, Martin Cooke said:

I fear there is a certain inevitability about what Adnosad says here, but the trick, as it were, with pipe organs and preservation is surely to try to discourage everyone from wanting to preserve every last pipe organ regardless of inherent quality. In a way, organs like this one in Warrington Parr Hall are under threat because the sheep are in with the goats. Somehow or other, a way has to be found that preserves the finest instruments at the expense, if necessary of those of less satisfactory quality and provenance. To some extent this is happening and we quite frequently read of transplants - without thinking too deeply, I can think of the Nicholson job in York, we had Orford more recently, and St John's Cambridge is coming up. So that's great. But we must be prepared to acknowledge that not every pipe organ is equally worthy of more time, energy and money being spent on it. 

Agreed with you both. I don't play myself, but can appreciate that a digital organ at home must've been a lifeline for many, both students AND professionals, during covid. Also, if you live in a flat/terrace/semi, a few flutes and strings to practice trio playing is quiet. Accoustic pianos are percussive... Admittedly, headphones can be used (for digital pianos as well), but I appreciate that not everyone may be inclined. 

I have a central heating system WITH PIPES!! At times, a little noisy and certainly NOT worthy of a HOC... 

[DHM]

The "virtual" version of this organ has now been released and is available for sale.

[Christine Jose Rigby]

Théodore Dubois: Prelude and Fugue in D minor/ D major

Played by Pieter Leebeek with the aid of the hauptwerk set by Sonus Paradisi of the 1870 Cavaillé-Coll organ in the Parr Hall, Warrington, Cheshire, England.

https://youtu.be/cmnVlX9bfQg?si=01tiK6Yhm3o1N59f

https://www.sonusparadisi.cz/en/organs/england/warrington-cavaille-coll-sample-set.html?fbclid=IwAR3_ONBXvRC4a_d83zlUrSOhfNqiLHqk-b1v84LzbqKnIm5KZcOrhGxfQnQ

 

[Christine Jose Rigby]

CD REVIEW IN CHOIR & ORGAN MAGAZINE (Published April, 2016)

Roger Fisher Plays the Cavaillé-coll organ, Parr Hall, Warrington

Wealdon Studios PHWCD 1 [81:26]

'This is an obviously home-made release featuring recordings of Roger Fisher, the distinguished emeritus organist of Chester Cathedral, playing the 1870 Cavaillé-Coll in Warrington. The recordings are a mixture of a ‘studio’ session captured in 1984 and a live concert, for an obviously enthusiastic audience, in 2011.

The repertoire is standard French romantic and 20th-century fare: Guilmant, Franck (Choral III, Pastorale), Saint-Saëns E flat Fantaisie, Duruflé ‘sur le nom’ et al. Understandably, the recorded sound is better in 2011, the playing more consistent and the organ clearly in slightly better shape in 1984. None of this matters a jot, however.

The CD has been released by the friends of this extraordinarily important organ to raise awareness of its near-farcical and seemingly endless plight. While rumours continue to circulate on internet forums as to its ultimate destination (Warrington Borough Council having stated their intention to let it go elsewhere already some eight years ago), the bald fact of this, a very substantial concert organ by the 19th century’s greatest organ builder, languishing in such poor condition for so long, shorn of its original mechanism but tonally intact, is hardly indicative of a national organ culture in good health. Buy this CD and support the wonderful people (including Roger Fisher himself) fighting against the odds for its future.'

 

On Friday, 17th June, 2011, we were able to celebrate the Bi-Centenary of the Birth of Aristide Cavaillé-Coll !!

Roger Fisher is the man who has done so much for me, with regard to his love of the Cavaillé-Coll organ in Warrington, since breaking a train journey in order to see the organ in the Parr Hall for the first time a number of years ago.

And as they say, the rest is history !!

He was to make the first recording of the instrument, which was an LP in 1984.

He gave me enormous support and encouragement when trying to promote the historic organ in this town, especially when he agreed we should try to celebrate the 2011 Bi-Centenary of the Birth of Aristide Cavaillé-Coll with a recital.

These were his words, after I asked him how I could arrange for a recital -

‘The way organ recitals are arranged varies so much that I couldn’t give any definite process, but rarely are they arranged through an agent.

I have played several times at the Parr Hall, and once or twice it was arranged by the Cavaillé-Coll Supporters Group, and once the request came from the hall manager, I think he was Nick Shaw.

So much seems to depend on meeting the right person at the right moment.

Most recital series are the result of drive from an organ enthusiast, who may not be professional, or even professionally involved, but who carries all before him or her, out of sheer enthusiasm.

This is not a very satisfactory basis on which to plan for the future, but that is the way it often goes.’

When Roger Fisher (Emeritus Organist, Chester Cathedral) took part in the Recital in 2011 - to commemorate the Bi-Centenary of the Birth of Aristide Cavaillé-Coll, it was one of the highlights of his career.

On that occasion he said of the 1870 Organ 'This organ has been known as the Bracewell Queen because it was made for Bracewell Hall, a little north of here.

Now this particular Queen is a very old lady indeed.

She has some health problems, and not every old lady does exactly what she's told first time - but never the less, she is an extremely distinguished old lady, and one that gives immense pleasure to the listener'.

After he had played for the recital, he graciously pointed to the organ whilst the audience showed their appreciation.

Photo: Roger Fisher at the console of the Warrington Cavaillé-Coll Organ reproduced by kind permission of Cheshire Life magazine.

THE ORGAN IS OWNED AND MANAGED BY THE WARRINGTON BOROUGH COUNCIL.

Roger died on 3rd June, 2021 aged 84.

https://rfisher.me/recordings-page/organ/roger-fisher-play-the-cavaille-coll-organ-parr-hall-warrington/