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Quint 5.1/3


Guest Andrew Butler

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Guest Andrew Butler

Despite many yeras experience, and playing very many organs in the process, i have never played, or knowingly heard, one with a Quint 5.1/3 as part of the Great chorus. What effect does it have, and when would it be used please?

 

I see that the new Phoenix organ in Sheffield Cathedral has one on the Choir Organ, which strikes me as unusual.

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Despite many yeras experience, and playing very many organs in the process, i have never played, or knowingly heard, one with a Quint 5.1/3 as part of the Great chorus. What effect does it have, and when would it be used please?

 

I see that the new Phoenix organ in Sheffield Cathedral has one on the Choir Organ, which strikes me as unusual.

 

Hi

 

Obviously, a lot depends on voicing. If the chorus is 16ft based, then there's no issue. But a Quint in an 8ft chorus is a little puzzling. Interestingly, last week I was able to play Colin Pykett's experimental computer-based system, and one of the available stop lists is Neue Kirche, Arnstadt, Thuringia (Wender, 1703) which has a QUint on the Hauptwerk. To my surprise, it was quite effective in small doses, adding a "growl" and a touch of 16ft resultants to the sound. See http://www.pykett.org.uk/re-creating_vanished_organs.htm for more info on the system.

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

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Low pitched mutations and Mixtures are -momentarily- out of fashion.

But the ancient builders used it:

 

-In the baroque period: in Prinzipal choruses on Great and Pedal

 

-In the late-baroque French organ as the "Gros jeu de Tierce":

 

Bourdon 16'

Bourdon 8' and/ or second 8' Flute

Gros Nasard 5 1/3'

Flute 4'

Grosse Tierce 3 1/5'

 

-In the romantic period in order to re-inforce the foundation tone

 

Examples: Cavaillé-Coll at Notre-Dame Paris

Walcker often placed a kind of Pedal Jeu de Tierce (16' and even 32')

 

The tendancy to have high-pitched mutation ranks that stands apart from the

foundation stops is a modern one.

At first some post-romantic builders wanted them "to add sparkle" on whatever

kind of registration

Then the eclectic builders did the same (Gonzalez among others)

The neo-baroque period needed some years to abandon this post-romantic trait

and come back to the genuine chorus.

 

Pierre Lauwers

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Low pitched mutations and Mixtures are -momentarily- out of fashion.

But the ancient builders used it:

 

-In the baroque period: in Prinzipal choruses on Great and Pedal

 

-In the late-baroque French organ as the "Gros jeu de Tierce":

 

Bourdon 16'

Bourdon 8' and/ or second 8' Flute

Gros Nasard 5 1/3'

Flute 4'

Grosse Tierce 3 1/5'

 

-In the romantic period in order to re-inforce the foundation tone

 

Examples: Cavaillé-Coll at Notre-Dame Paris

                Walcker often placed a kind of Pedal Jeu de Tierce (16' and even 32')

 

The tendancy to have high-pitched mutation ranks that stands apart from the

foundation stops is a modern one.

At first some post-romantic builders wanted them "to add sparkle" on whatever

kind of registration

Then the eclectic builders did the same (Gonzalez among others)

The neo-baroque period needed some years to abandon this post-romantic trait

and come back to the genuine chorus.

 

Pierre Lauwers

 

 

===============================

 

 

I believe the famous (infamous?) V rks Schulze Mixture at Armley breaks back to include the 5.1/3rd rank.

 

MM

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===============================

I believe the famous (infamous?) V rks Schulze Mixture at Armley breaks back to include the 5.1/3rd rank.

 

MM

 

Like nearly all french Mixtures in the 18th century, even in many a small organ.

The craze of the 5 1/3'-less Mixtures dates back from...Marcel Dupré.

The St-Maximin du Var J-E Isnard Masterpiece ends in 10 2/3' in the treble

("Grosse Fourniture")

All this is explained by Dom Bédos.

 

Pierre

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Guest Nigel ALLCOAT
Despite many yeras experience, and playing very many organs in the process, i have never played, or knowingly heard, one with a Quint 5.1/3 as part of the Great chorus. What effect does it have, and when would it be used please?

 

I see that the new Phoenix organ in Sheffield Cathedral has one on the Choir Organ, which strikes me as unusual.

 

Andrew,

May I suggest that if you play an instrument that has been carefully scaled by the builder and there is such a Quint it is utterly necessary to draw it for a full chorus? It is designed as such and for that particular use on a 16' based design. For instance, here is such a stop list for a Gt that actually sounds odd without drawing it. Built in 1987:

 

Portunal 16

Montre 8

Gambe 8

Bourdon 8

Quinte 6

Octave 4

Flûte conique 4

Quinte 3

Doublette 2

Sexquialtera III

Mixture IV-VII

Cornet V

Basson 16

Trompette 8

 

What does not work is when a builder uses the stop as an extension of another. Then it sounds as consecutive fifths.

 

Best wishes,

NJA

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Low pitched mutations and Mixtures are -momentarily- out of fashion.

But the ancient builders used it:

 

-In the late-baroque French organ as the "Gros jeu de Tierce":

 

Bourdon 16'

Bourdon 8' and/ or second 8' Flute

Gros Nasard 5 1/3'

Flute 4'

Grosse Tierce 3 1/5'

 

Pierre Lauwers

 

In the 'Dom Bedos' organ at Ste. Croix Bordeaux this is a fabulous sound - for instance in a Couperin Duo or Trio it has all the bite of a a rather rustic Double Bass!

 

http://www.atelier-quoirin.com/Bordeaux.htm

 

http://www.store.yahoo.com/ohscatalog/maallicocoon.html

 

AJJ

 

PS The rest of it is pretty stupendous too - 32' GO chorus etc. - well worth a visit if you are down that way - and the case could fit into the 'work of art' category of another thread on this site.

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Despite many yeras experience, and playing very many organs in the process, i have never played, or knowingly heard, one with a Quint 5.1/3 as part of the Great chorus. What effect does it have, and when would it be used please?

 

I see that the new Phoenix organ in Sheffield Cathedral has one on the Choir Organ, which strikes me as unusual.

 

Try the Wurlitzer in the Tower Ballroom, Blackpool. A Tibia Quint 5.1/3 helps create the famous "Reginald Dixon Blackpool sound" but it needs a tremulant and might not go down too well in church!

 

FF :P

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Try the Wurlitzer in the Tower Ballroom, Blackpool. A Tibia Quint 5.1/3 helps create the famous "Reginald Dixon Blackpool sound" but it needs a tremulant and might not go down too well in church!

 

FF  :P

 

 

====================

 

I have to confess that I'm not quite sure how much the 5.1/3 Quint contributes to the Blackpool sound, but I believe the most important component is the inclusion of Tierce couplers, which devoid of the tremulants, sounds hideously out of tune.

 

I believe Robert Wolfe had them fitted to the ex-Paramount Wurlitzer at Thursford in Norfolk, with equally unpleasant side-effects.

 

With the tremulation, the effect is distinctly memorable, to say the least, and in small doses, has its uses. However, certain organists just use them all the time, and the effect is a bit of an insult to what Wurlitzer intended.

 

The same is true of tremulation generally on theatre organs, and English organists of to-day tend to use them most of the time. Listen to Sid Torch or Quentin Maclean, and it amazes me just how sparsely they used the wobble-effect, even in up-tempo numbers.

 

Of course, as Frank knows, setting up the tremulation on a theatre-organ is one of the most musically challenging tasks of any installation, and when they are set-up right, the effect of numerous tremulants interacting, produces the almost natural sounding, throbbing-vibrato heard in a string-orchestra, but that is so difficult to achieve without a lot of ranks and a lot of tender care.

 

A few people genuinely hate theatre organs, but most only "think" they hate them.

 

I say, let them listen to the masters, past and present; such as Quentin Maclean, Sidney Torch, Simon Gledhill, Johhny Seng (USA) and George Wright (USA) to name but a few; each with a unique style all their own. Most people usually end up tapping their feet to Sidney Torch, become spell-bound by the orchestral brilliance of Simon Gledhill or grin from ear-to-ear when the late George Wright created the most bizzare effects on his home studio-organ to the delight of a whole new generation.

 

I wonder if any of our German friends have heard that wonderful lady jazz-organist, who can make whoopy on a neo-classical cathedral organ to great effect?

 

If you haven't heard her "Rankett Rag" you haven't lived!

 

:P

 

MM

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Try the Wurlitzer in the Tower Ballroom, Blackpool. A Tibia Quint 5.1/3 helps create the famous "Reginald Dixon Blackpool sound" but it needs a tremulant and might not go down too well in church!

 

FF  :P

 

I always believed that if I challenged anyone to discuss Bernard Aubertin and Blackpool Tower in the same sentence, let alone adjacent posts in a very specific topic, I would surely draw a complete blank... now I know... maybe a rebuild of Blackpool Tower on French classical lines is on the cards? Or St-Antoine l'Abbaye with sleigh bells and swanee whistles?

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I always believed that if I challenged anyone to discuss Bernard Aubertin and Blackpool Tower in the same sentence, let alone adjacent posts in a very specific topic, I would surely draw a complete blank... now I know... maybe a rebuild of Blackpool Tower on French classical lines is on the cards?  Or St-Antoine l'Abbaye with sleigh bells and swanee whistles?

 

=======================

 

That's the difference between English, French and German organists.

 

The German organist will provide seven pages of detailed discourse and never deviate from the subject, the French organist will quote the same thing over an over again with harmonious but eloquent variety, whilst the English organist will quintessentially ramble down every possible highway and byeway.

 

What was the question again?

 

MM

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Guest Andrew Butler

Thanks for the replies. To return to my original question, which concerned the Great chorus, I should have also asked what on earth was the use of the Swell "Horn Quint 5.1/3" that used to be at Ely?

 

Oh - and a slight tangent: what does a "Pierced Gamba" sound like please anyone?

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Thanks for the replies. To return to my original question, which concerned the Great chorus, I should have also asked what on earth was the use of the Swell "Horn Quint 5.1/3" that used to be at Ely? 

 

Oh - and a slight tangent: what does a "Pierced Gamba" sound like please anyone?

 

 

The 'demo' CD by Thomas Murray of the big Yale organ on JAV has an example of the quint reed on that instrument being used as a sort of 'thickener' to the chorus - giving a darker feel to the whole. There are no odd consecutives etc. due to the subtle voicing. I found the same effect with a Quint 5-1/3 as part of a Great chorus.

 

AJJ

 

PS The only Pierced Gamba I have played sounded like an ordinary Great type Gamba!

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Guest Andrew Butler
I suggest "Ouch!"

 

I asked for that - it's exactly the answer I would have given if someone else had asked! :P

 

I have seen the name in printed specs, and I note that a new instrument on the Phoenix Organs website has one - I am guessing there must be some subtle difference in tone from an ordinary Gamba (if such an animal exists - eg, what a difference there is between between a swell Gamba and a great Gamba)

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I suggest "Ouch!"

 

====================

 

Nigel, you are not taking this seriously!

 

On that note, I would suggest the name of the reed should be Quintat Horn 5.1/3ft

 

Now doesn't that ridiculous machine at Atlantic City have Tierce reeds also?

 

I have a copy of the specification somewhere lurking on my hard-drive, but I'm not sure where I placed it. Finding it would be like discovering the whereabouts of the Choir Dulciana at Atlantic City.

 

I think I'll go sit in the garden with some fresh shallots and a flute of Cliquot.

 

:P

 

MM

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Guest Nigel ALLCOAT
====================

 

Nigel, you are not taking this seriously!

 

MM

 

Ha! Well - I take some things seriously but I all too often see the funny side of things especially when you take the Italian, translate and then add pierced!

 

 

NJA

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I say, let them listen to the masters, past and present; such as Quentin Maclean, Sidney Torch, Simon Gledhill, Johhny Seng (USA) and George Wright (USA) to name but a few; each with a unique style all their own. Most people usually end up tapping their feet to Sidney Torch, become spell-bound by the orchestral brilliance of Simon Gledhill or grin from ear-to-ear when the late George Wright created the most bizzare effects on his home studio-organ to the delight of a whole new generation.

 

Them ?

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One could understand this theatre organ off-topic like this:

All that goes beyond today's fashion= not about "true" organs.

As human beings we dream -of immortality-; so there are never

fashins, only Truths; nor does anything like Hit-parades exist in

organ music, only "repertoire".

 

(I should not read Kant again in the evening!)

 

Pierre

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Guest Lee Blick
Or St-Antoine l'Abbaye with sleigh bells and swanee whistles?

 

I think more church organs should have sounds like a 'zymbelstern' and a 'nightingale' and maybe a 'whistle' to subtely remind the preacher his sermon should be drawing to a close.

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One could understand this theatre organ off-topic like this:

All that goes beyond today's fashion= not about "true" organs.

As human beings we dream -of immortality-; so there are never

fashins, only Truths; nor does anything like Hit-parades exist in

organ music, only "repertoire".

 

(I should not read Kant again in the evening!)

 

Pierre

 

==================

 

I haven't the slightest idea what Pierre is talking about, but...... :D

 

I shall open up a new topic under "We've got rhythm?"

 

With a few delights, and a touch of immortality to consider!

 

MM

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I think more church organs should have sounds like a 'zymbelstern' and a 'nightingale' and maybe a 'whistle' to subtely remind the preacher his sermon should be drawing to a close.

 

I was involved with the design of this some years ago - the 'toy' stops are actually in the best possible taste!

 

http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch...ec_index=N07978

 

AJJ

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I was involved with the design of this some years ago - the 'toy' stops are actually in the best possible taste!

 

http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch...ec_index=N07978

 

AJJ

 

=============

 

The best unintentional "toy" register is to be found at Halifax Parish Church!

 

"Those in the know" know a little trick.

 

In the old days, when the organ was first built, it had one of those rather elegant blinds which drew across the ivory-keys, to protect them from sunlight.

 

The roll for the blind sat between two tiny toilet-roll-holder-type-things....brass-brackets by another name.

 

The brackets still exist.

 

The trick is to play, in F# major, "From out of the woods did a cuckoo fly" and then twang the brackets with the fingers.

 

As someone said, (It wasn't ME honest, Guv...... :D ) "That's the best pluckin' cuckoo in Yorkshire!"

 

:P

 

 

MM

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I think more church organs should have sounds like a 'zymbelstern' and a 'nightingale' and maybe a 'whistle' to subtely remind the preacher his sermon should be drawing to a close.

 

I have always wanted to have one stop connected to a trap door in the pulpit. Like many things in this life I never managed to do, this is one of them.

 

FF

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