En Chamade

[Vox Humana]

I know that, in organs terms, it refers to horizontal pipes, but since my French is less than fluent I'm wondering why such ranks are called "en chamade". What exactly is the concept imparted by these words? My French dictionary gives the following meanings for "chamade": "(battre la chamade), to sound a parley, to surrender"; and "(heart) to beat wildly". I'm having a bit of difficulty relating this to organ pipes. Is there another meaning?

[heva]

Yep, there is.

And it sounds what it looks like

[pcnd5584]

VH, it may be that the previous reply was not quite that which you had in mind....

 

Therefore, I offer the following, for what it may be worth:

 

The concept, in organ terms, is that of a rank of reed-pipes, the resonators of which are mounted horizontally (Cavaillé-Coll and others did occasionally fit the blocks and boots vertically) and often, although not always, on display. S. Sulpice has a Trompette en chamade on the Solo clavier - which is arguably bi-positional [i.e., it is neither one thing nor the other (!) ] in order to be a true chamade, the entire resonator should be disposed horizontally:

 

http://www.stsulpice.com/Images/stsulpice06.jpg

 

Pipes which are mitred or hooded are not the same thing at all - many British reed stops are treated thus, but do not qualify as being en chamade.

 

I suggest this link as a possible starting-point for an explanation:

 

http://www.organstops.org/c/Chamade.html

 

Here is a photograph of a true chamade:

 

http://www.culture.gouv.fr/culture/orgues/..._toulouse2.html

 

This one is slightly better:

 

http://www.xs4all.nl/~twomusic/discography...erninorgue.html

 

Or this one (scroll down a little):

 

http://www.uquebec.ca/musique/orgues/france/ndamep1.html

 

"To sound a parley", is probably about as close as you are going to get!

 

Examples in the UK are: St, John's College (Cambridge), Dunster Church, Wimborne Minster, Liverpool Metropolitan Cathedral, Ulster Hall (Belfast) and Cirencester Parish Church. There are a number of others - HN&B were particularly fond of inserting such stops in several of their instruments. Examples now not in place, include: Llandaff Cathedral, Lichfield Cathedral (the Tuba is now inside the case), St. Mary's (Usk) - however, insofar as the latter instrument is concerned, my memory is incomplete. I cannot recall whether this organ definitely had an en chamade rank or, for that matter, whether it still has one.

 

If you wish to hear an example of one, please let me know!

 

I hope that this helps.

[Vox Humana]

Thanks very much for that, pcnd. I don't know why I didn't think of looking at the organ stops link - I know it well enough! "Parley" it is then, I suppose, though I confess I'd hoped for a meaning a bit less tame.

 

I've very occasionally come across live examples. In fact, the (brass) Royal Trompette at St Michael's, Kingsteignton that I mentioned the other day is en chamade. Or at least the pipes are horizontal - I didn't actually check the boots. A fine sound it makes, anyway. And - a pure coincidence, I'm sure - in the console's previous home at Freshwater the Positive Trumpet was also en chamade.

[pcnd5584]

I've very occasionally come across live examples. In fact, the (brass) Royal Trompette at St Michael's, Kingsteignton that I mentioned the other day is en chamade. Or at least the pipes are horizontal - I didn't actually check the boots. A fine sound it makes, anyway. And - a pure coincidence, I'm sure - in the console's previous home at Freshwater the Positive Trumpet was also en chamade.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Freshwater Farm (IOW) ? So that is where that instrument went to - I had heard that the family of the late Arthur Starke were trying to sell the H&H after he died.

 

If this is the case, I assume that the rest of the Positive Organ was discarded (or was used in another instrument) - or, alternatively, that the NPOR is incorrect, since the specification which it conjures-up does not list a Positive Organ as being amongst its attributes.

 

If you have any further information concerning this matter, VH, I would be pleased to hear from you.

[Vox Humana]

Crumbs, Arthur always seemed so self-sufficient I can hardly imagine him having family!

 

His console definitely went to Kingsteignton, but I don't think any of the pipework did. At least, no mention was made of that when I was there. Did you see this thread? http://web16713.vs.netbenefit.co.uk/discus...p?showtopic=524

[pcnd5584]

Crumbs, Arthur always seemed so self-sufficient I can hardly imagine him having family!

 

His console definitely went to Kingsteignton, but I don't think any of the pipework did. At least, no mention was made of that when I was there. Did you see this thread? http://web16713.vs.netbenefit.co.uk/discus...p?showtopic=524

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thank you, VH.

 

I had read some of the posts in this thread - obviously I had overlooked the relevant portions!

[Pierre Lauwers]

The real stuff is to be find in Spain, where the Chamades were invented,

and always used as solo or detail stops, never as power tools.

 

Some Trumpets were "de batalla", tough. And their installation (or dis-installation) may resemble to preparation for something else, more Batalla than music:

 

http://www.grenzing.com/images/organ_big/SEC_dismantle.jpg

 

And here is the real-real stuff; a gem of an organ (Santanyi, by Jordi Bosch), absolutely splendid, worth a Schnitger, and where the chamades are at home:

 

http://www.grenzing.com/images/organ_big/SAN_Fachada.jpg

 

Pierre

[AJJ]

Examples in the UK are: St, John's College (Cambridge), Dunster Church, Wimborne Minster, Liverpool Metropolitan Cathedral, Ulster Hall (Belfast) and Cirencester Parish Church. There are a number of others - HN&B were particularly fond of inserting such stops in several of their instruments. Examples now not in place, include: Llandaff Cathedral, Lichfield Cathedral (the Tuba is now inside the case), St. Mary's (Usk) - however, insofar as the latter instrument is concerned, my memory is incomplete. I cannot recall whether this organ definitely had an en chamade rank or, for that matter, whether it still has one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Here is the G & D at Usk - Chamade still in place and all restored recently by Nicholson I believe. This is the organ that used to be at Llandaff.

 

http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch...ec_index=N09835

 

AJJ

 

PS Bradford Cathedral has one too - if diminutive - judging from the photo!!

 

http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/PSearch...dex=A00542&no=2

[pcnd5584]

Thank you, Alastair.

 

It looks quite impressive - have you any idea what the stop sounds like?

[AJJ]

Thank you, Alastair.

 

It looks quite impressive - have you any idea what the stop sounds like?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I've not heard it though would guess that the flue work would be quite tame so the contrast between the horizontal reed and the rest might be quite marked. The re opening day at St Annes Limehouse (older G & D but similar on paper at least except for the chamade) is coming up and it will be interesting to hear also how that has done after the recent Bill Drake restoration. Last time I played there - even in its then rather faded state the Great and Pedal reeds were absolutely incredible. No surprise perhaps that Thomas Trotter will be playing some Widor in the opening recital.

 

http://www.londonorgan.co.uk/stanneslimehouse.htm

 

http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch...ec_index=N16712

 

 

I've never heard the Bradford organ - it looks a little odd on paper at least. Maybe the Rev. Tony can enlighten us - I seem to remember some mention of it here before though.

 

AJJ

[heva]

Chamades

[Vox Humana]

Thanks, heva. Interesting history and some great photos. The Granada case is always worth looking at.

[Pierre Lauwers]

Chamades hebben na de tweede wereldoorlog vanaf de laat 50-er jaren ook in Nederland hun verschijning gemaakt. In veel nieuwere orgels, in? nee, op! of nog beter: aan! of is het tegen? ik denk dat het uit moet zijn. Of uitstekend? In elk geval, veel neo-barok orgels hebben ze

 

Ja, Ja,...Uitstekend!

 

(Quote)

 

And here is the point!

The chamades are present in many a modern organ....In? No:on. Even better,

added upon....Or against? Well, many neo-baroque organ have them.

Yes, fantastic! :angry:

 

Pierre

[Tony Newnham]

I've not heard it though would guess that the flue work would be quite tame so the contrast between the horizontal reed and the rest might be quite marked. The re opening day at St Annes Limehouse (older G & D but similar on paper at least except for the chamade) is coming up and it will be interesting to hear also how that has done after the recent  Bill Drake restoration. Last time I played there - even in its then rather faded state the Great and Pedal reeds were absolutely incredible. No surprise perhaps that Thomas Trotter will be playing some Widor in the opening recital.

 

http://www.londonorgan.co.uk/stanneslimehouse.htm

 

http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch...ec_index=N16712

I've never heard the Bradford organ - it looks a little odd on paper at least. Maybe the Rev. Tony can enlighten us - I seem to remember some mention of it here before though.

 

AJJ

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hi

 

The Bradford chamade is bright rather than very loa-ud - the solo Trumpet Major is louder and more rounded - but it's still a nice stop. The position at the top of the organ case (chancel chamber) facing South does, I suspect, limit how effective it is in the Nave compared to its previous position at the West End (which I never heard).

 

Another organ with chamades is St. Mary, Saffron Walden. They are deafenin in the South Aisle - and difficult to balance as the organist (on the screen) only hears the bounce from the West End (and that's a very long way away!) I've heard top-name recitalists come adrift here using the chamade in chords.

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

[MusingMuso]

Hi

 

The Bradford chamade is bright rather than very loa-ud - the solo Trumpet Major is louder and more rounded - but it's still a nice stop.  The position at the top of the organ case (chancel chamber) facing South does, I suspect, limit how effective it is in the Nave compared to its previous position at the West End (which I never heard).

 

 

Tony

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

=====================

 

The old Bradford Nave Organ was actually quite effective in leading congregational singing, but the "silly people" decided they could use the space, and the four stilts on which the organ stood obviously got in the way.

 

Now, they have some infernal electronic device at the rear, and the chamade Purcell Trumpet stitched onto the main-case.

 

They've proved to be especially effective at wasting money at Bradford Cathedral.

 

The Purcell Trumpet is, I presume, still on very low wind, like that at St.George's, Dunster, but it could hold its own at the rear due to the horizontal disposition. The only drawback, was the fact that it was seldom in tune.

 

MM

[pcnd5584]

Tony and MM - interesting information. Would I be correct in assuming that Bradford Cathedral has a fairly dry acoustic?

 

I had also forgotten about the chamades at Cirencester Parish Church; actually I do not thank that they are too bad - I have heard far worse.

 

My own chamade is on 200mm pressure and is fairly devastating in the South Aisle. It just about doubles the power of full organ and sounds best either in chords or filled-out with other stops, even the Principal and Cymbal - the latter for a Cochereau-esque solo, such as the upper pedal part to the JSB chorale prelude on De Profundis. I have always thought that, played with both parts on the pedals, this piece is very disappointing. I do it with my boss providing a third hand and playing the chorale melody in octaves on the chamades, with the Swell chorus coupled, Positive Principal and Cymbal, and with the Swell chorus coupled to the GO chorus plus 16p Quintatön. I also have both octave couplers drawn on the Swell and Pedal to 2p and Mixture, with the softer 16p reed.

 

Purists amongst you will probably raise your hands in horror and start muttering darkly about "One stop of each pitch" and "Octave couplers? Anathema!" - the simple fact is, it not only works on our organ in our building, but it sounds stunning; and, no the octave couplers do not obfuscate the counterpoint!

[pcnd5584]

The real stuff is to be find in Spain, where the Chamades were invented,

and always used as solo or detail stops, never as power tools.

 

Some Trumpets were "de batalla", tough. And their installation (or dis-installation) may resemble to preparation for something else, more Batalla than music:

 

http://www.grenzing.com/images/organ_big/SEC_dismantle.jpg

 

And here is the real-real stuff; a gem of an organ (Santanyi, by Jordi Bosch), absolutely splendid, worth a Schnitger, and where the chamades are at home:

 

http://www.grenzing.com/images/organ_big/SAN_Fachada.jpg

 

Pierre

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This is all well and good, Pierre - but all the Spanish chamades which I have heard are comparatively weedy! Personally I cannot see the point of them. Even Milan Cathedral (yes, I know that this is in Italy!) organ has a tutti which is mixture-dominated.

 

Obviously it is a matter of personal taste, but I greatly prefer French chamades to any of the Spanish ones which I have heard - admittedly not that many, but they did sound the same. However, I would agree that they look quite impressive.

 

If one is going to have a chamade, then it needs to be capable of stopping hearts at forty paces. Anything less and one might just as well spend the money on a really good case of port.

[pcnd5584]

Chamades hebben na de tweede wereldoorlog vanaf de laat 50-er jaren ook in Nederland hun verschijning gemaakt. In veel nieuwere orgels, in? nee, op! of nog beter: aan! of is het tegen? ik denk dat het uit moet zijn. Of uitstekend? In elk geval, veel neo-barok orgels hebben ze

 

Ja, Ja,...Uitstekend!

 

(Quote)

 

And here is the point!

The chamades are present in many a modern organ....In? No:on. Even better,

added upon....Or against? Well, many neo-baroque organ have them.

Yes, fantastic! :angry:

 

Pierre

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Pierre, please translate the first paragraph!

 

Thank you.

[Pierre Lauwers]

"The chamades have made their way in the Netherlands too during the 50 years

that followed WWII"

Pierre

[pcnd5584]

"The chamades have made their way in the Netherlands too during the 50 years

that followed WWII"

Pierre

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Thank you, Pierre!

[Pierre Lauwers]

....And indeed, the true chamades are NO tutti-machines....Neo- baroque

idea!

I am always surprised today "symphonic" people are fond of them, after Pierre Cochereau's example. But in reality, our conception of the chamade (outside Spain and Cavaillé-Coll's) is 100% an Orgelbewegt one.

Give me a good Tuba instead !

Pierre

[pcnd5584]

....And indeed, the true chamades are NO tutti-machines....Neo- baroque

idea!

I am always surprised today "symphonic" people are fond of them, after Pierre Cochereau's example. But in reality, our conception of the chamade (outside Spain and Cavaillé-Coll's) is 100% an Orgelbewegt one.

Give me a good Tuba instead !

Pierre

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I, in turn, am amazed that you could prefer something which is robbed of virtually all harmonic development* and is itself a true 'noise-machine'!

 

The deadening blanket of sound which is usually present when a tuba is inartistically coupled to the tutti I find oppressive and un-musical!

 

Quite different to the stunning effect of bright and harmonically-lively chamades.

 

I still cannot see the point of a chamade which just burbles politely, though....

 

:angry:

 

* Except for a few examples by Hill and Willis (Eton College Chapel, Chester, Exeter, St. Pauls [Chancel], etc) and I still do not like these!

[Goldsmith]

I, in turn, am amazed that you could prefer something which is robbed of virtually all harmonic development* and is itself a true 'noise-machine'!

 

The deadening blanket of sound which is usually present when a tuba is inartistically coupled to the tutti I find oppressive and un-musical!

 

Quite different to the stunning effect of bright and harmonically-lively chamades.

 

I still cannot see the point of a chamade which just burbles politely, though....

 

:angry:

 

* Except for a few examples by Hill and Willis (Eton College Chapel, Chester, Exeter, St. Pauls [Chancel], etc) and I still do not like these!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

But modern chamades often don't blend any better than tubas, do they? There are some very nasty examples tacked onto romantic English-sounding organs, sometimes a few hundred yards away from the rest of the instrument. At least the tuba is usually tonally/physically related to the rest of the instrument.

And it has some repertoire written for it...

[Pierre Lauwers]

But modern chamades often don't blend any better than tubas, do they? There are some very nasty examples tacked onto romantic English-sounding organs, sometimes a few hundred yards away from the rest of the instrument. At least the tuba is usually tonally/physically related to the rest of the instrument.

And it has some repertoire written for it...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

.....And like the true Chamades, Tubas are not intended to be added to the Tutti,

but pitted against it!

( For the Tutti we have the Trombas).

 

I researched the Web to find sound samples of a beautiful spanish Chamade

with its genuine music, but....In vain!

The spanish organists seem to prefer modern music....Will anybody there

put baroque spanish music on genuine ancient organs on line?

I have records of Santanyi here; if you hear that once, you cannot stand neo-baroque

versions any more.

Pierre