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The first few sound good, but why would I like the Wurlitzer one in St. Paul's, if I like French reeds - surely this is a dichotomy?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wurlitzer

 

I cannot immediately think of a French rank which sounds similar - not even the Boisseau (c.1970) chamades at Nôtre-Dame, Paris.

:P  :blink:

 

==============

 

Sorry....forgot the link:-

 

http://www.atos.org/Pages/Residences/Sanfi...Sanfilippo.html

 

MM

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The following has a number of illustrations of specific Wurlitzer ranks, as well as full pieces to be heard.

 

http://www.atos.org/Pages/Recordings/index.htm

 

1. For the specific ranks, scroll down to the Buddy Cole demonstration.

 

2. Excellent BRITISH theatre organ-playing at its' best, from Simon Gledhill (Try the Montmatre item)

 

3. Virgil Fox as composer? Try the "Princeton Loyalty" under the heading Tom Hazelton, who sadly died just a few weeks ago.

 

MM

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  • 1 year later...
The York Minster Tuba Mirabilis is eccentrically constructed, and I am sure that pcnd would not say that it qualifies as a chamade because the pipes do stand vertically on their chest. I can understand the description chamade being applied because after a run of quite a bit less than a metre, the resonators all turn 90 degrees and the remainder of each pipe virtually rests horizontally above the stone parapet. These pipes (or quite a few of them anyway) can be seen projecting horizontally at the bottom of the West case (i.e. the one that faces the Nave).

Would this be the stop in question?

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I know that, in organs terms, it refers to horizontal pipes, but since my French is less than fluent I'm wondering why such ranks are called "en chamade". What exactly is the concept imparted by these words? My French dictionary gives the following meanings for "chamade": "(battre la chamade), to sound a parley, to surrender"; and "(heart) to beat wildly". I'm having a bit of difficulty relating this to organ pipes. Is there another meaning?

 

I'm pretty sure the etymological trail leads back to Lat. clamare, to shout, proclaim.

 

JS

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There is an Pedal Ophicleide 16' mounted 'en Chamade' on the organ in Southampton which I play regularly. The pipes are laid horizontally on top of the Swell box, projecting their sound straight down the church - it is a West End Installation.

 

It is obsenely loud, and only useable with a VERY full organ!

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QUOTE(paul@trinitymusic.karoo.co.uk @ Jun 3 2006, 06:40 AM)

 

The York Minster Tuba Mirabilis is eccentrically constructed, and I am sure that pcnd would not say that it qualifies as a chamade because the pipes do stand vertically on their chest. I can understand the description chamade being applied because after a run of quite a bit less than a metre, the resonators all turn 90 degrees and the remainder of each pipe virtually rests horizontally above the stone parapet. These pipes (or quite a few of them anyway) can be seen projecting horizontally at the bottom of the West case (i.e. the one that faces the Nave).

 

 

This photograph shows why the stop in question may or may not be referred to as "En Chamade" ..

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/64649127@N00/452913306/ :(

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=======================

Half the fun of the York party-horn was playing the game,"Spot the notes that most resemble the Tubas of other instruments"

In the Cocker "Tuba Tune", it went something like:-

Hull City Hall (D), Southbank Wurlitzer (F#) Halifax PC (A) etc etc

Devoid of any musical use, it's the sort of rank of which Homer Simpson would have approved .

MM

At my niece's graduation in YM, it is alleged that 'The Simpsons' signature tune was indeed played (upon this stop, I assume).

:(

Ian

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I think Simon Preston's 'Tocatta' alludes to the Simpson's theme tune. Sarah Baldock might know. She has it in her repertoire.

 

Grateful to see the photos of the York TM. Would be even more grateful to hear it. Despite attending abt six Saturday Evensongs a year, its abt two years since I have heard it used in the voluntary. I thought that it might be used at the end of Elgar's Imperial March. But sadly not.

 

While chuntering on abt Saturday's Evensong at York, can anyone explain why choirs still sing 'Day in B flat'. The Mag is particularly wretched !

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I think Simon Preston's 'Tocatta' alludes to the Simpson's theme tune. Sarah Baldock might know. She has it in her repertoire.

 

Grateful to see the photos of the York TM. Would be even more grateful to hear it. Despite attending abt six Saturday Evensongs a year, its abt two years since I have heard it used in the voluntary. I thought that it might be used at the end of Elgar's Imperial March. But sadly not.

 

While chuntering on abt Saturday's Evensong at York, can anyone explain why choirs still sing 'Day in B flat'. The Mag is particularly wretched !

 

 

I suggest parsfan attends a larger Sunday service. The Tuba is much less likely to be used when the service is in the Quire since it faces in the opposite direction. Actually, his best bet might be to contact Richard McVeigh, member of this forum by e-mail! Actually, all the music staff are very friendly and I'm sure something can be arranged.

 

The York Minster Tuba is a sound unlike (virtually) any other. It is only border-line musical IMHO...but, as they say

'whatever turns you on!'

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I suggest parsfan attends a larger Sunday service. The Tuba is much less likely to be used when the service is in the Quire since it faces in the opposite direction. Actually, his best bet might be to contact Richard McVeigh, member of this forum by e-mail! Actually, all the music staff are very friendly and I'm sure something can be arranged.

 

The York Minster Tuba is a sound unlike (virtually) any other. It is only border-line musical IMHO...but, as they say

'whatever turns you on!'

 

Thanks. I have heard it. The last time was when JSW played Franck's 'Finale' And before that in some vulgar Cocherau piece before Christmas that quoted 'Jingle Bells'. I have some sympathy with those who think the York TM unmusical. Its not like the Chamade stops at St Paul's and St John the Divine. Or the Trompette Militaire at Liverpool. The tone is too loud, forceful and 'fat' to be used in pieces such as the Gigout.

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... And before that in some vulgar Cocherau piece before Christmas that quoted 'Jingle Bells'... .

 

This is news - are you certain that this was by Cochereau? I an familiar with many of his recorded improvisations*; I also possess copies of most of those which have been transcribed (not all of which are published). Aside from the fact that I would not personally describe any of his improvisations as 'vulgar', I do not recall that he quoted Jingle Bells in any of them.

 

* To the best of my knowledge this includes all which have been commercially released, either on LP or CD.

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This is news - are you certain that this was by Cochereau? I an familiar with many of his recorded improvisations*; I also possess copies of ,ost of those which have been transcribed (not all of which are published). Aside from the fact that I would not personally describe any of his improvisations as 'vulgar', I do not recall that he quited Jingle Bells in any of them.

 

* To the best of my knowledge, this includes all which have been commercially released, either in the form of an LP or a CD.

 

 

Yes, fairly certain that it was Cocherau, tho the theme quoted-tongue in cheek-might have been some other popular Christmas ditty. It was certainly gutsy. The TM was used and the piece finished on full organ. JSW will know. That, Haec Dies and the Symphony seem to be the PC works in JSW's repertoire.

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  • 3 months later...
I think Simon Preston's 'Tocatta' alludes to the Simpson's theme tune. Sarah Baldock might know. She has it in her repertoire.

 

Grateful to see the photos of the York TM. Would be even more grateful to hear it. Despite attending abt six Saturday Evensongs a year, its abt two years since I have heard it used in the voluntary. I thought that it might be used at the end of Elgar's Imperial March. But sadly not.

 

While chuntering on abt Saturday's Evensong at York, can anyone explain why choirs still sing 'Day in B flat'. The Mag is particularly wretched !

 

I do agree about the Day comment, York Minster has quite a varied repertoire.....! I can certainly unleash the Mirabilis to you after an Evensong one day if you want, Sunday Evenings are best. Its used quite a lot in big services, such as the ones around Christmas.

 

One must remember that when Harrison & Harrison installed the Tuba Mirabilis in 1916, the organ was generally all on a higher wind pressure. It becomes clear in a simple table:

 

Tuba Mirabilis 25", and still on 25"

Tuba 20", now on 15"

Great reeds 15", now on 7"

Great fluework 7", now on 4 1/4"

Pedal Ophicleide 25", now on 6"

 

Considering how notorious this stop has become, it is used very little in the day-to-day life of the Minster. It is inaudible in the Quire and is too loud when accompanying a choir in the nave. It is generally only used on a Sunday morning when the Eucharist is in the nave, and it is useful when used to play the melody during a loud hymn. Coupling it through and playing it on the Great (the last page of the Cocker for eg) would be crazy, thats not what it was designed for. It is merely used for single melody lines. You might also be interested to know that the Solo Octaves do not have any effect on the Mirabilis, but yet alter everything else.

 

Thanks. I have heard it. The last time was when JSW played Franck's 'Finale' And before that in some vulgar Cocherau piece before Christmas that quoted 'Jingle Bells'. I have some sympathy with those who think the York TM unmusical. Its not like the Chamade stops at St Paul's and St John the Divine. Or the Trompette Militaire at Liverpool. The tone is too loud, forceful and 'fat' to be used in pieces such as the Gigout.

 

Which service was this? The only Cocherau that John played around Christmas was the last movement of "Symphonie en Improvisation" which John has transcribed from a recorded improvisation. I can't say that I noticed the Jingle Bells tune however!

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I suggest parsfan attends a larger Sunday service. The Tuba is much less likely to be used when the service is in the Quire since it faces in the opposite direction. Actually, his best bet might be to contact Richard McVeigh, member of this forum by e-mail! Actually, all the music staff are very friendly and I'm sure something can be arranged.

 

The York Minster Tuba is a sound unlike (virtually) any other. It is only border-line musical IMHO...but, as they say

'whatever turns you on!'

 

Sorry I didn't get to talk to you on Monday at Francis' suprise recital, I was too busy trying to get autographs hehe!! But what a night - certainly one to remember. Do you like the musical efforts in the book? I think its a splendid volume, the Passacaglia by Carter is just brilliant. And John played admirably I thought, a huge achievment playing all that new repertoire don't you agree. I loved Francis' opening comment of his ad lib speach "Well, I wonder what you would do if you were in my position?"

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... Which service was this? The only Cocherau that John played around Christmas was the last movement of "Symphonie en Improvisation" which John has transcribed from a recorded improvisation. I can't say that I noticed the Jingle Bells tune however!

 

Do you happen to know whether John intends to submit this transcription for publication, please?

 

Incidentally, it is 'Cochereau' - just for the record.

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Do you happen to know whether John intends to submit this transcription for publication, please?

 

Incidentally, it is 'Cochereau' - just for the record.

 

 

Sorry about the typo, I find myself with too little time to check my spellings!

 

Yes it was published in 2006, under a label I have never heard of, and reads "Dr. J. Butz * Musikverlag - Éditions Chantraine" at the bottom of the front cover. He has recorded it on a newly to be realeased CD with Regent on the Minster organ, along with many other unknown ditties, including an alternative arrangement of Dupré's Cortege et Litaine, in which I played some notes in the first section!!

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Sorry about the typo, I find myself with too little time to check my spellings!

 

Yes it was published in 2006, under a label I have never heard of, and reads "Dr. J. Butz * Musikverlag - Éditions Chantraine" at the bottom of the front cover. He has recorded it on a newly to be realeased CD with Regent on the Minster organ, along with many other unknown ditties, including an alternative arrangement of Dupré's Cortege et Litaine, in which I played some notes in the first section!!

 

Richard, thank you for this information.

 

I used to deal with Éditions Chantraine a few years ago - but had thought that they had ceased trading. I am pleased to hear that this is not the case. However, I am not able to find any trace of this transcription on their website - I shall keep looking.

 

Please do not worry about the typographical error - I once described Cavaillé-Coll as having built a large four-clavier instrument a year after he had died. As you say, life is just too busy to notice everything.

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I'm pretty sure the etymological trail leads back to Lat. clamare, to shout, proclaim.

 

JS

 

Dear John,

I've just noticed that you posted the above etymological suggestion twice, but nobody seemed to hear you over the noise from the chamades. The on-line Trésor de la Langue Française supports your idea:

 

Empr. à l'ital. du nord ciamada (FEW, t. 2, p. 730; DEI; DAUZAT73; v. ROHLFS, t. 1, § 179 et 201) part. passé fém. du verbe ciamà « appeler » (DAUZAT73); ciamada correspond. au toscan chiamata « appel » part. passé fém. de chiamare « appeler », du lat. clamare (clamer). L'hyp. d'un empr. au port. chamada « id. » (DIEZ5, p. 542; REW3, no 1961) est moins satisfaisante du point de vue hist., étant donné le grand nombre des termes milit. empruntés par le fr. à l'italien.

 

Sorry about the abbreviations in French, roughly it states that the word chamade was borrowed by the French from the northern Italian word ciamada which is the feminine past participle of the verb ciamà (to call) and this comes from the Latin clamare. It then mentions the hypothesis that the word was borrowed from the Portuguese is less satisfying from an historical point of view, given the large number of military terms borrowed by the French from the Italians.

 

So perhaps a chamade is the musical equivalent of the exclamation mark!

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Sorry I didn't get to talk to you on Monday at Francis' suprise recital, I was too busy trying to get autographs hehe!! But what a night - certainly one to remember. Do you like the musical efforts in the book? I think its a splendid volume, the Passacaglia by Carter is just brilliant. And John played admirably I thought, a huge achievment playing all that new repertoire don't you agree. I loved Francis' opening comment of his ad lib speach "Well, I wonder what you would do if you were in my position?"

 

 

I wrote this up in another topic - the one anent 'FJ's Birthday'.

Yes, I think the volume is splendid and that whole enterprise was exceptionally successful.

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  • 2 months later...
The real stuff is to be find in Spain, where the Chamades were invented,

and always used as solo or detail stops, never as power tools.

 

Some Trumpets were "de batalla", tough. And their installation (or dis-installation) may resemble to preparation for something else, more Batalla than music:

 

http://www.grenzing.com/images/organ_big/SEC_dismantle.jpg

 

And here is the real-real stuff; a gem of an organ (Santanyi, by Jordi Bosch), absolutely splendid, worth a Schnitger, and where the chamades are at home:

 

http://www.grenzing.com/images/organ_big/SAN_Fachada.jpg

 

Pierre

 

Here's a god example of de batalla:

 

http://www.spaeth.ch/Mallen.htm

 

Peter

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Hi

 

The Bradford chamade is bright rather than very loa-ud - the solo Trumpet Major is louder and more rounded - but it's still a nice stop. The position at the top of the organ case (chancel chamber) facing South does, I suspect, limit how effective it is in the Nave compared to its previous position at the West End (which I never heard).

 

Another organ with chamades is St. Mary, Saffron Walden. They are deafenin in the South Aisle - and difficult to balance as the organist (on the screen) only hears the bounce from the West End (and that's a very long way away!) I've heard top-name recitalists come adrift here using the chamade in chords.

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

 

I'd concur with what Tony says about the Bradford organ. The Purcell Trumpet isn't especially loud in the nave, although it's fairly assertive at the console due to its bright sound. It was much more effective when it was at the west end. The sound of the whole organ at Bradford falls off rapidly as you move from the chancel down the nave to the west end, which of course was why the nave organ was built in the first place, in the 1960's as I recall. It was quite effective when the church was full. Such is progress...

 

R.

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Here's a pretty hair-raising example. Whilst there might be small boys out there who want to learn the organ because they have ambitions to play trios sonatas and tierces en tailles, this kind of thing is the reason I took it up!

 

Washington, Copland

 

.....By jove......Lord, have mercy upon us!!!!

 

Pierre

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