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Principaal 22 (alkmaar)


heva
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The Alkmaar Duyschot/Schnitger organ features a remarkable stop: the Principaal 22' on the pedals.

As far as I know it's a fourth below normal 16' - or in fact the second overtone of the not present 64' foot.

I've heard the stop at the console and found it to cause a lot of rumble but not more.

 

Does anybody here understand what it's good for other than just some sort of a late renaissance show of to neighbouring villages (until Haarlem came along)?

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The Alkmaar Duyschot/Schnitger organ features a remarkable stop: the Principaal 22' on the pedals.

As far as I know it's a fourth below normal 16' - or in fact the second overtone of the not present 64' foot.

I've heard the stop at the console and found it to cause a lot of rumble but not more.

 

Does anybody here understand what it's good for other than just some sort of a late renaissance show of to neighbouring villages (until Haarlem came along)?

 

Could it possibly be a short-compass 32'? - (Insufficient space/money for full length?)

 

John

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Could it possibly be a short-compass 32'? - (Insufficient space/money for full length?)

 

John

 

 

==========================

 

I think I can give the definitive answer on this one, but I have a small problem.

 

The very pretty book I bought at Alkmaar has every possible detail about the main Hagabeer/F C Schnitger organ, but it is written in Holland-speak, which makes it a bit of a slow read due to the quirky organistic terms.

 

I seem to recall it was something to do with the compass of the original instrument, but I will dig out the tome and confirm this.

 

The rank is, incidentally, a wooden one!

 

MM

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The Alkmaar Duyschot/Schnitger organ features a remarkable stop: the Principaal 22' on the pedals.

As far as I know it's a fourth below normal 16' - or in fact the second overtone of the not present 64' foot.

I've heard the stop at the console and found it to cause a lot of rumble but not more.

 

Does anybody here understand what it's good for other than just some sort of a late renaissance show of to neighbouring villages (until Haarlem came along)?

 

======================

 

Apologies to start with, when I suggested Hagabeer/Schnitger, when it should of course have been Duyschot/Schnitger; except that a lot of Hagabeer pipes have found their way into the organ as various people have restored it.

 

The reason for the 24ft Prestant (a metal rank in the case) is to do with the fact that it was part of the "Boven" manual; the lowest notes of which (in short octave form) were coupled to the Pedals as "contra-tonen". I'm not quite sure if these low-notes only applied to the 22ft and 12ft (sic) (Pitches which correspond to 21.2/3 and 10.2/3 ft to-day).

 

The Pedal Organ also had independent ranks, ratyher than just a coupler arrangement, but of course, in those days, the Pedals would be used essentially as a "Cantus Firmus" and the indpeendent registers consisted of 8ft and 4ft Prestants (Principals) and a single 8ft Trompet.

 

The "short octave" included only the notesF,G,A Bb and B, but the actual independent Pedal pipes operated from C-f'.

 

I am sure there are other who will understand this better than myself, for I am not an early-early-music specialist who knows much about short-octaves and things.

 

The point of departure came with subsequent changes to the organ, most notably when F C Schnitger "normalised" everything and greatly enlarged the organ; providing a fully independent pedal organ, which incorporated the lowest pipes of the original instrument.

 

However, in this instance, it seems that 21.2/3 ft was not the actual speaking-pitch (unless I've misunderstood the book....which is possible) , but simply an indication of the lowest note; the pedal organ now standardised as C-d' (Just over two octaves). Presumably, the pitch was 32ft, but just fizzled out below low G.

 

In a later "restoration", 7 new Bourdon pipes were added; situated within the organ; the remaining pipes being in the case. Thus, there was the unusual effect of a full compass 32ft consisting of the old metal case-pipes and 7 new wooden pipes. These would be C, C#, D, D#, E, plus the two "missing" notes of the old short-compass F# and G#.

 

Now, it may be that the F# and G# were metal pipes by F C Schnitger, and the other 5 wooden ones added later, but in any event, when I played the organ for the first time, I recall these big stopped wooden Bourdons as having been removed, and standing propped up against the west wall of the church on the way up to the console!

 

(They never throw anything away in Holland, and many is the time that an organ has been restored using original pipes found on top of the tone-cabinet, wrapped in paper!)

 

I believe, that in the latest thorough restoration, which takes the instrument back, as far as possoble, to the original Schnitger specification and sound, the 32ft remains as a 21/2/3 maximum lebgth, but at 32ft pitch as played; the Roerquint at 10.2/3 providing the gravitas for the lowest notes.

 

Far from being just a distant rumbling sound, the 32ft (21.2/3 ft) is actually very effective down the church, but of no great weight.

 

Setting the record straight, I must therefore withdraw the claim that the 32ft register (21.2/3) is a wooden rank. It is not, but it did once contain stopped-wooden pipes to complete the compass; hence the confusion.

 

It may be a lot more complicated than this, but as the Hollanders take their restoration deadly-seriously, the detail in the book is quite extraordinary and would take me a great deal of time to decipher, quite independently of the amount of translation required.

 

Of course, the organ has changed many times, with upperwork being removed, the re-instated using new pipes, but in addition, many ranks now include extensive number of historic pipes by Hagabeer.

 

That stated, the end result is just fabulous, as the recording on another current thread demonstrates to perfection.

 

Were I to choose a "top five", I think this organ would be well to the fore.

 

MM

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Silly me, I have a copy of the book too.

 

But: in the description of the current organ I read that the 1725 situation has been restored. That means (according to the book) that the biggest pipe in the middle tower sounds as G on pedalkey C (the 3rd overtone ot a 64'). In 1782 this was changed so the G sounded as the 32' G

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Silly me, I have a copy of the book too.

 

But: in the description of the current organ I read that the 1725 situation has been restored. That means (according to the book) that the biggest pipe in the middle tower sounds as G on pedalkey C (the 3rd overtone ot a 64'). In 1782 this was changed so the G sounded as the 32' G

 

=================

 

Mmmmmmmm!

 

I always struggle to read the book due to the layout of the history and the depth of detail, but I am not in the least surprised that the 21.2/3ft pitch is there and actually sounds as a sub-quint.

 

I think the netherlands radio recording, on the "Bach Fantasia in G" thread, actually demonstrates the sound of that register in combination, and it has a remarkable effect; providing an extraordinary gravity.

 

My ears told me that this was what I was hearing, but I couldn't work it out from the written script....hence my hesitation.

 

I was also trying to work out whether the 4th sounding rank is still in one of the Mixtures, which I think must be, because the last time I was there for a recital, I distinctly heard the effect which sounds rather like tubular-bells, and which I think is fairly unique to this instrument.

 

These quirks apart, the Alkmaar instrument is really in a class all its' own.

 

MM

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======================

 

Apologies to start with, when I suggested Hagabeer/Schnitger, when it should of course have been Duyschot/Schnitger; except that a lot of Hagabeer pipes have found their way into the organ as various people have restored it.

 

The reason for the 24ft Prestant  (a metal rank in the case) is to do with the fact that it was part of the "Boven" manual; the lowest notes of which (in short octave form) were coupled to the Pedals as "contra-tonen". I'm not quite sure if these low-notes only applied to the 22ft and 12ft (sic) (Pitches which correspond to 21.2/3 and 10.2/3 ft to-day).

 

The Pedal Organ also had independent ranks, ratyher than just a coupler arrangement, but of course, in those days, the Pedals would be used essentially as a "Cantus Firmus" and the indpeendent registers consisted of 8ft and 4ft Prestants (Principals) and a single 8ft Trompet.

 

The "short octave" included only the notesF,G,A Bb and B, but the actual independent Pedal pipes operated from C-f'.

 

I am sure there are other who will understand this better than myself, for I am not an early-early-music specialist who knows much about short-octaves and things.

 

The point of departure came with subsequent changes to the organ, most notably when F C Schnitger "normalised" everything and greatly enlarged the organ; providing a fully independent pedal organ, which incorporated the lowest pipes of the original instrument. 

 

However, in this instance, it seems that 21.2/3 ft was not the actual speaking-pitch (unless I've misunderstood the book....which is possible) , but simply an indication of the lowest note; the pedal organ now standardised as C-d' (Just over two octaves). Presumably, the pitch was 32ft, but just fizzled out below low G.

 

In a later "restoration", 7 new Bourdon pipes were added; situated within the organ; the remaining pipes being in the case. Thus, there was the unusual effect of a full compass 32ft consisting of the old metal case-pipes and 7 new wooden pipes. These would be C, C#, D, D#, E, plus the two "missing" notes of the old short-compass F# and G#.

 

Now, it may be that the F# and G# were metal pipes by F C Schnitger, and the other 5 wooden ones added later, but in any event, when I played the organ for the first time, I recall these big stopped wooden Bourdons as having been removed, and standing propped up against the west wall of the church on the way up to the console!

 

(They never throw anything away in Holland, and many is the time that an organ has been restored using original pipes found on top of the tone-cabinet, wrapped in paper!)

 

I believe, that in the latest thorough restoration, which takes the instrument back, as far as possoble, to the original Schnitger specification and sound, the 32ft remains as a 21/2/3 maximum lebgth, but at 32ft pitch as played; the Roerquint at 10.2/3 providing the gravitas for the lowest notes.

 

Far from being just a distant rumbling sound, the 32ft (21.2/3 ft) is actually very effective down the church, but of no great weight.

 

Setting the record straight, I must therefore withdraw the claim that the 32ft register (21.2/3) is a wooden rank. It is not, but it did once contain stopped-wooden pipes to complete the compass; hence the confusion.

 

It may be a lot more complicated than this, but as the Hollanders take their restoration deadly-seriously, the detail in the book is quite extraordinary and would take me a great deal of time to decipher, quite independently of the amount of translation required.

 

Of course, the organ has changed many times, with upperwork being removed, the re-instated using new pipes, but in addition, many ranks now include extensive number of historic pipes by Hagabeer.

 

That stated, the end result is just fabulous, as the recording on another current thread demonstrates to perfection.

 

Were I to choose a "top five", I think this organ would be well to the fore.

 

MM

I would agree - this organ would go in my top 5 - probably close or at the top of the list! The Choir organ would also get in as well - again, close to the top!

 

When I played it, the Praestant 24' was sounding at 21 1/3 pitch, adding a cavernous gravity to the ensemble, hinting at something huge. Its effect is very subtle and very clever but very effective - more so than a 32' would be, in my opinion.

 

I understand that this stop was at 32' pitch from 1782 to 1986 and I, too, noticed the stopped wooden pipes by the staircase to the organ loft at the back of the church. I was told these pipes were never very good but they've kept them just in case for the future...

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I would agree - this organ would go in my top 5 - probably close or at the top of the list! The Choir organ would also get in as well - again, close to the top!

 

When I played it, the Praestant 24' was sounding at 21 1/3 pitch, adding a cavernous gravity to the ensemble, hinting at something huge. Its effect is very subtle and very clever but very effective - more so than a 32' would be, in my opinion.

 

I understand that this stop was at 32' pitch from 1782 to 1986 and I, too, noticed the stopped wooden pipes by the staircase to the organ loft at the back of the church. I was told these pipes were never very good but they've kept them just in case for the future...

 

==================

 

Indeed!

 

I've ploughed through the Dutch-speak book about the restoration, and this is now the current disposition of the rank.

 

At risk of repetition, the following is the link I quoted on another thread, but which is SO GOOD it is worth a second visit.

 

I think it is possible to hear that 21.2/3ft sound in this archive recording.

 

http://www.ncrv.nl/ncrv?nav=xwnutCsHtGAgBxBEoE

 

Enjoy.

 

MM

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==================

 

 

 

I think it is possible to hear that 21.2/3ft sound in this archive recording.

 

http://www.ncrv.nl/ncrv?nav=xwnutCsHtGAgBxBEoE

 

 

MM

 

================

 

Oh b******s!

 

I made the same mistake with the link again.

 

Try this instead:-

 

http://orgelconcerten.ncrv.nl/ncrv?nav=cpqbuCsHtGAiBzBGFsBzB

 

 

MM

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