Donner

[John Robinson]

I have just discovered that it is intended to insert a stop by the name of 'Donner 64' at Altenberg Cathedral, Germany.

 

I have been informed by the builders (Klais) that this is to be a resultant derived from the (also prepared for) Contraposaune 32'.

 

I was rather astonished to hear this, as I thought it was not possible/effective to make a reed resultant. I think this must be a unique concept but, of course, I stand to be corrected.

 

John

[AJJ]

I have just discovered that it is intended to insert a stop by the name of 'Donner 64' at Altenberg Cathedral, Germany.

 

I have been informed by the builders (Klais) that this is to be a resultant derived from the (also prepared for) Contraposaune 32'.

 

I was rather astonished to hear this, as I thought it was not possible/effective to make a reed resultant.  I think this must be a unique concept but, of course, I stand to be corrected.

 

John

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Are we sure it isn't a Kebab?

 

AJJ

[heva]

Are we sure it isn't a Kebab?

 

AJJ

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What's next, some Vindaloo from the chamades?

 

 

@John: Cavaille-Coll used a quint-bombarde 10 2/3 in Orleans to create a 32' - but I haven't heard the stop live (on record I haven't really found it near something 32'ish - but maybe it just wasn't used).

 

Anyway, it must be a boring 1950-ish stop - just like a minister here in Holland with the same name and 'performance'.

[Vox Humana]

I thought it was not possible/effective to make a reed resultant.

The only attempt at a reed resultant I have encountered is the Bombarde Basse 64' at Washington Cathedral where (despite what the late, unlamented Mr Bournias insisted) I am positive only the lowest four or five notes were quinted. General opinion (not just mine) from the people travelling with me was that it really didn't work.

[AJJ]

The only attempt at a reed resultant I have encountered is the Bombarde Basse 64' at Washington Cathedral where (despite what the late, unlamented Mr Bournias insisted) I am positive only the lowest four or five notes were quinted. General opinion (not just mine) from the people travelling with me was that it really didn't work.

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Mind you - at the end of the improvised symphony from Gerre Hancock recorded there recently by JAV it comes over pretty impressively. I wonder whether they will keep it when the whole lot is 'rejigged' soon?

 

AJJ

 

PS The Hancock improvisation is very impessive too - everything from Marcel Dupre to quasi Star Wars!!

[Pierre Lauwers]

"just like a minister here in Holland with the same name and 'performance'."

(Quote)

 

Did he/she finish in jail like quite a lot of belgian "VIPs" these times?

Would make for thunderish prisons!

Pierre

[pcnd5584]

I have just discovered that it is intended to insert a stop by the name of 'Donner 64' at Altenberg Cathedral, Germany.

 

I have been informed by the builders (Klais) that this is to be a resultant derived from the (also prepared for) Contraposaune 32'.

 

I was rather astonished to hear this, as I thought it was not possible/effective to make a reed resultant.  I think this must be a unique concept but, of course, I stand to be corrected.

 

John

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By 'resultant', they may mean half-length, in the same way that Cavaillé-Coll used to refer to half-length basses as 'basses acoustiques' (c.f. Nôtre-Dame de Paris, Récit Bombarde 16p; the lowest octave or so of this rank was originally half-length).

 

There is also the example of the Quint Trombone (10 2/3p) on the Pedal Organ of the H&H at the RAH. THis stop apparently gives an impressive sense of gravitas to the pedal line - but in an entirely different manner to that which would be imparted by either of the full-length 32p reed ranks.

 

However, it is interesting to note that the Quint Trumpet (5 1/3p) originally on the Swell Organ at Ely Cathedral was not re-instated at the recent rebuild. I do not know of anyone who ever used it before it was discarded in 1974. Perhaps at this pitch, this stop simply had no real use.

[pcnd5584]

 

What's next, some Vindaloo from the chamades?

@John: Cavaille-Coll used a quint-bombarde 10 2/3 in Orleans to create a 32' - but I haven't heard the stop live (on record I haven't really found it near something 32'ish - but maybe it just wasn't used).

 

Anyway, it must be a boring 1950-ish stop - just like a minister here in Holland with the same name and 'performance'.

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Thank you! I had no idea about the true identity of the 32p reed at Orléans Cathedral. Cavaillé-Coll did occasionally resort to such subterfuge in order to provide a sub-unison pedal flue stop. S. Sernin is a case in point; older specifications give the first Pedal stop as 'Principalbasse 32'. However, after the most recent restoration, it is listed as 'Grosse Quinte 10 2/3p'. This is certainly more informative.

[pcnd5584]

Mind you - at the end of the improvised symphony from Gerre Hancock recorded there recently by JAV it comes over pretty impressively. I wonder whether they will keep it when the whole lot is 'rejigged' soon?

 

AJJ

 

PS The Hancock improvisation is very impessive too - everything from Marcel Dupre to quasi Star Wars!!

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Alastair, how much Star Wars influence is there on this recording, please? I am considering purchasing a copy, but I am not particularly interested in wading through fifteen or so minutes' worth of quasi-John Williams, good as he is at writing epic film-scores.

[Brian Childs]

However, it is interesting to note that the Quint Trumpet (5 1/3p) originally on the Swell Organ at Ely Cathedral was not re-instated at the recent rebuild. I do not know of anyone who ever used it before it was discarded in 1974. Perhaps at this pitch, this stop simply had no real use.

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The Ely Swell Reeds before the controversial rebuild of 1974 were Oboe and Vox Humana on 4 1/2 inches of wind and on ten inches Double Trumpet, Trumpet, Horn, Horn Quint and Clarion.

 

The only Quint Trumpet I can think of in the UK is on the RAH organ. Does anyone know of another in the UK ?

 

Incidentally, does anyone happen to know what is on the forthcoming CD (July) of Simon Preston on the RAH organ ?

 

BAC

[pcnd5584]

The Ely Swell Reeds before the controversial rebuild of 1974 were Oboe and Vox Humana on 4 1/2 inches of wind and on ten inches Double Trumpet, Trumpet, Horn, Horn Quint and Clarion.

 

The only Quint Trumpet I can think of in the UK is on the RAH organ. Does anyone know of another in the UK ?

 

Incidentally, does anyone happen to know what is on the forthcoming CD (July) of Simon Preston on the RAH organ ?

 

BAC

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My apologies, Brian. You are correct - the stop was named Horn Quint. As I typed it, I was assailed by a nagging doubt, but I just could not be bothered to wander downstairs again to refer to Laurence Elvin's book!

 

Best wishes, by the way.

[AJJ]

Alastair, how much Star Wars influence is there on this recording, please? I am considering purchasing a copy, but I am not particularly interested in wading through fifteen or so minutes' worth of quasi-John Williams, good as he is at writing epic film-scores.

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There are touches (I think anyway) of big film score stuff in the quieter sections and in the last movement when it really gets going - after the more academic start - also in one of the other movements where he uses antiphonal effects with the reeds in a sort of scherzo. There is also an amazing section where all the bells etc. are used. I play some of the real Star Wars music occasionally - from a piano score - the main theme etc. One of the JAV CDs also has some recorded though I can't remember which. The Hancock CD is worth having for the improvisations alone though - quite 'considered' and almost Marcel Dupre like in places - not very 'Cochereau' though. It was recorded at a live recital so there is a touch of the 'audiece pleaser' about it - but that's not really so bad!

 

AJJ

[pcnd5584]

Thank you, Alastair.

 

Perhaps I will get a copy.

[Malcolm Farr]

Thank you! I had no idea about the true identity of the 32p reed at Orléans Cathedral. Cavaillé-Coll did occasionally resort to such subterfuge in order to provide a sub-unison pedal flue stop. S. Sernin is a case in point; older specifications give the first Pedal stop as 'Principalbasse 32'. However, after the most recent restoration, it is listed as 'Grosse Quinte 10 2/3p'. This is certainly more informative.

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Cavaillé-Coll certainly seems to have thought that quint reeds had their place. In addition to the Orléans example, his unexecuted 1875 proposal for St Peter's Basilica in Rome included a Quinte-bombarde 10 2/3' in the Pédale and a Quinte-trompette 5 1/3' in the Grand-Choeur. His scheme was quite complete, with 124 stops over 6 manual divisions plus Pédale, and both divisions included sub-unison reeds (Contre-bombarde 32' and Tuba magna 16' respectively). So I think it is fair to surmise that, in this instance, their inclusion was to emphasis the gravitas inherent in the proposed chorus structures.

 

Regards,

MJF

[John Robinson]

By 'resultant', they may mean half-length, in the same way that Cavaillé-Coll used to refer to half-length basses as 'basses acoustiques' (c.f. Nôtre-Dame de Paris, Récit Bombarde 16p; the lowest octave or so of this rank was originally half-length).

 

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No, they were quite specific: 32' + 21 1/3' from the 32' reed. The word 'resultant' was my inclusion.

 

John

[pcnd5584]

No, they were quite specific: 32' + 21 1/3' from the 32' reed.  The word 'resultant' was my inclusion.

 

John

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Weird - I can only think that this would sound odd....

[John Robinson]

Weird - I can only think that this would sound odd....

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We shall see...

[MusingMuso]

Alastair, how much Star Wars influence is there on this recording, please? I am considering purchasing a copy, but I am not particularly interested in wading through fifteen or so minutes' worth of quasi-John Williams, good as he is at writing epic film-scores.

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====================

 

If I saw the name Gerre Hancock on anything, I would buy it immediately.

 

Not only is he a superb organist, but a truly remarkable improviser.

 

As for John Williams, I would "boldly go where no man has gone before" and suggest that he's the best composer America ever produced; notwithstanding my love of Gershwin.

 

MM

[Brian Childs]

====================

 

If I saw the name Gerre Hancock on anything, I would buy it immediately.

 

Not only is he a superb organist, but a truly remarkable improviser.

 

As for John Williams, I would "boldly go where no man has gone before" and suggest that he's the best composer America ever produced; notwithstanding my love of Gershwin.

 

MM

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Duke Ellington ??

[Vox Humana]

I have just discovered that it is intended to insert a stop by the name of 'Donner 64' at Altenberg Cathedral, Germany.

 

I have been informed by the builders (Klais) that this is to be a resultant derived from the (also prepared for) Contraposaune 32'.

 

I was rather astonished to hear this, as I thought it was not possible/effective to make a reed resultant. I think this must be a unique concept but, of course, I stand to be corrected.

 

John

I had the privilege of playing the Altenberg organ in early August and can confirm that the acoustic Donner 64' does indeed exist.

 

The problem with assessing a stop like this is that one has no point of reference. There are only two full-length 64' reeds in the world and I am unlikely ever to hear either of them live. (I have heard recordings, but it is hardly the same thing.) So I can only take the stop at face value. Does it work? Well, I used it for the last three pedal notes of Carillon de Westminster and the acoustic bit kicked in on the final bottom D. I think it does - just, by the skin of its teeth. Clearly you have to use it with care. It is aptly named!

 

Unfortunately time was so limited that I did not have the luxury of working out how the 64' is derived. The organ has two 32' pedal reeds - a Contrafagott and a very vulgar Contraposaune. The 64' definitely uses the Posaune, but whether it is quinted upon itself or with the Fagott I am not sure.

 

The Altenberg organ is fascinating and I wish I had had the time to explore it fully - but I think that would take months. The Brustwerk Septime 4/7' is an improviser's dream!

 

http://www.altenberger-dommusik.de/orgel.html

[John Robinson]

I had the privilege of playing the Altenberg organ in early August and can confirm that the acoustic Donner 64' does indeed exist.

 

The problem with assessing a stop like this is that one has no point of reference. There are only two full-length 64' reeds in the world and I am unlikely ever to hear either of them live. (I have heard recordings, but it is hardly the same thing.) So I can only take the stop at face value. Does it work? Well, I used it for the last three pedal notes of Carillon de Westminster and the acoustic bit kicked in on the final bottom D. I think it does - just, by the skin of its teeth. Clearly you have to use it with care. It is aptly named!

 

Unfortunately time was so limited that I did not have the luxury of working out how the 64' is derived. The organ has two 32' pedal reeds - a Contrafagott and a very vulgar Contraposaune. The 64' definitely uses the Posaune, but whether it is quinted upon itself or with the Fagott I am not sure.

 

The Altenberg organ is fascinating and I wish I had had the time to explore it fully - but I think that would take months. The Brustwerk Septime 4/7' is an improviser's dream!

 

http://www.altenberger-dommusik.de/orgel.html

 

A very striking case, too, in my opinion.

 

They also added some tubas at the same time, I believe and, yes, there they are in the specification. Tubas seem to be becoming more and more popular in Germany. It must be because we joined the EU!

[heva]

A very striking case, too, in my opinion.

 

They also added some tubas at the same time, I believe and, yes, there they are in the specification. Tubas seem to be becoming more and more popular in Germany. It must be because we joined the EU!

 

 

Really? looks more like 'auf Englisch' being the new vogue

[DHM]

Really? looks more like 'auf Englisch' being the new vogue

Indeed. One only has to look at the number of redundant English organs being transplanted to Germany, the number of German churches introducing a service called "Choral Evensong", and the rave reviews (from German critics) with which the release of this was greeted: www.lavenderaudio.co.uk/oic.

[John Robinson]

All they need now are some big double open woods and a few thunderous 32' reeds.

 

Not joking. I think such things would enhance some of their instruments which, although bright and powerful, seem to lack some 'bottom end power' for my taste.