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Hi

 

You may not personally like Kendrick et al style of music - that's fine - but I challenge you to quote say half a dozen examples of Kendrick songs with theologically unsound lyrics.

 

And just because something is "evangelical" doesn't mean it's claptrap.  And why not accept new things - God is a God of creativity - and if the church hadn't changed, we would be worshipping in Aramaic (the language of the first apostles) and using music in Ancient Greek/Roman style.

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

 

=============

 

Instead, we worship God in Middle English or the watered-down versions which amount to awful prose.

 

That is the real challenge of to-day, not the music, which changes very frequently and not always for the better.

 

MM

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Guest delvin146
Hi

 

You may not personally like Kendrick et al style of music - that's fine - but I challenge you to quote say half a dozen examples of Kendrick songs with theologically unsound lyrics.

 

And just because something is "evangelical" doesn't mean it's claptrap.  And why not accept new things - God is a God of creativity - and if the church hadn't changed, we would be worshipping in Aramaic (the language of the first apostles) and using music in Ancient Greek/Roman style.

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

 

Thanks Tony, I quite like the idea of worship in Aramaic and Ancient Greek and Roman styles (whatever they were). Graham Kendrick is certainly not the worst, but probably the most well known. You asked for half a dozen theologically unsound examples:

 

Kendrick portrays things in a very evangelical way, uses very flowery and sentimental imagery, like all his kind concentrates on their ‘me and Jesus’ rather than the catholic ‘me in the church and Jesus’ and is full of marching and victory songs rather than the quiet loving and caring which is what the Gospel is really about, although blatant heresy is hard to find.

 

Kendrick's songs split into two groups:

 

1) What to me is heretical, the idea that the earth, rather than being God’s good creation, is totally evil and devil possessed :

 

MP 15 All heaven waits

MP 219 He that is in us

 

2) a very extreme version of the substitution explanation of the cross and the atonement. Do we really believe God needed a blood sacrifice à la Old Testament? I suppose this is the traditional view but you can take it too far if you really have to believe it at all.

 

MP 85 Come and see

MP 100 Come and see the beauty

MP 221 He walked where I walk

MP 476 My Lord, what love is this

MP 632 Thank you for the cross

MP 663 The price is paid

 

3) the individualism of it’s just me and Jesus and no one else is needed i.e. the community of the church

 

325 I’m special

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Guest Lee Blick
full of marching and victory songs rather than the quiet loving and caring which is what the Gospel is really about

 

What about those great triumphal joyful Easter hymns? You don't know what you are talking about. :blink:

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Do we really believe God needed a blood sacrifice à la Old Testament?

 

The Doctrine of penal substitution may be non-PC these days, but nevertheless remains a central dogma of all orthodox Christian denominations.

 

As regards perceived theological waywardness in GK,

 

'In this bread is full forgiveness, in this cup is life forever' (from ‘Here is Bread’),

 

is hardly an evangelical/charismatic understanding of Holy Communion.

 

Let’s keep these theological debates going folks - they are often far more interesting than discussions about wind pressures, mixture compositions and the like!

 

Cheers,

 

Paul.

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Guest delvin146
What about those great triumphal joyful Easter hymns?  You don't know what you are talking about.  :lol:

 

What about the great triumphal Easter hymns?

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What about those great triumphal joyful Easter hymns?  You don't know what you are talking about.  :lol:

 

OK Lee, so name your six joyful Easter hymns in which you have theological objections to the text.

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Thanks Tony, I quite like the idea of worship in Aramaic and Ancient Greek and Roman styles (whatever they were). Graham Kendrick is certainly not the worst, but probably the most well known. You asked for half a dozen theologically unsound examples:

 

Kendrick portrays things in a very evangelical way, uses very flowery and sentimental imagery, like all his kind concentrates on their ‘me and Jesus’ rather than the catholic ‘me in the church and Jesus’  and is full of marching and victory songs rather than the quiet loving and caring which is what the Gospel is really about, although blatant heresy is hard to find.

 

Kendrick's songs split into two groups:

 

1)  What to me is heretical, the idea that the earth, rather than being God’s good creation, is totally evil and devil possessed :

 

MP 15        All heaven waits           

MP 219      He that is in us             

 

2) a very extreme version of the substitution explanation of the cross and the atonement.  Do we really believe God needed a blood sacrifice à la Old Testament?  I suppose this is the traditional view but you can take it too far if you really have to believe it at all.

 

MP 85        Come and see             

MP 100      Come and see the beauty

MP 221      He walked where I walk

MP 476      My Lord, what love is this

MP 632      Thank you for the cross

MP 663      The price is paid

 

3)  the individualism of it’s just me and Jesus and no one else is needed i.e. the community of the church

 

325      I’m special

 

Hi

 

I'm not surprised you had trouble finding theological problems in Kendrick's songs, as I happen to know that they are vetted by at least one highly qualified minister (as are some other contemporary writers works).

 

As you rightly point out, Kendrick is an evangelical, and that inevitably shows in his writing.

 

To look at your specific example MP 15 & 219. The concept of Satan as Lord of the earth comes from the Bible - so you can't call it heretical! (1 Cor 12:10; Jn 12:31; 14:30; to quote just a couple of verses). All heaven waits is primarily a call to prayer, He That is In Us is a reminder of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that gives us the ability to walk in God's ways - both mainstream Christian doctrines.

 

Yes - the earth is God's creation, and was created good - but the (currently unpopular) concept of spiritual warfare is also a part of the picture.

 

Turning to the individualism issue, again a Biblical concept (Matt 10:30 illustrates God's knowledge and concern for individuals). Having said that, it's something that is emphasised more in Evangelical circles (and hence something I don't have an issue with) - I feel that there needs to be a balnce here which sometimes is missed by service planners. Actually, there are a good many traditional hymns - especially from the evangelical side - that are individualistic (I Need Thee Every Hour springs to mind). Indeed, you don't have to look far in Kendrick's writings to see the corporate nature of our Christian fellowship - MP 162 (From Heaven You Came); 427 (Lord, Come and Heal Your Church); 509 (O Lord, the Clouds are Gathering); 579 (Restore, O Lord) to quote just a handful.

 

I can't think of any hymn or worship song which expresses a whole, balanced Christian doctrine - it would be far to long to be of any practical use! It's inevitable that certain songs/hymns will show a bias to one or two aspects of teaching. The real art is in service planning to maintain, as far as possible, an overall balance whilst also supporting the theme and aims of the particular act of worship - and that holds good whatever tradition (or mix of traditions) are involved.

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

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The real art is in service planning to maintain, as far as possible, an overall balance whilst also supporting the theme and aims of the particular act of worship - and that holds good whatever tradition (or mix of traditions) are involved.

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

 

I couldn’t have put it any better myself. I wish all churches/priests thought the same way as you, but then we wouldn’t have anything to moan about, would we?

:lol:

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Guest delvin146
Hi

 

I'm not surprised you had trouble finding theological problems in Kendrick's songs, as I happen to know that they are vetted by at least one highly qualified minister (as are some other contemporary writers works). 

 

As you rightly point out, Kendrick is an evangelical, and that inevitably shows in his writing.

 

To look at your specific example  MP 15 & 219.  The concept of Satan as Lord of the earth comes from the Bible - so you can't call it heretical!  (1 Cor 12:10; Jn 12:31; 14:30; to quote just a couple of verses).  All heaven waits is primarily a call to prayer, He That is In Us is a reminder of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that gives us the ability to walk in God's ways - both mainstream Christian doctrines.

 

Yes - the earth is God's creation, and was created good - but the (currently unpopular) concept of spiritual warfare is also a part of the picture.

 

Turning to the individualism issue, again a Biblical concept (Matt 10:30 illustrates God's knowledge and concern for individuals).  Having said that, it's something that is emphasised more in Evangelical circles (and hence something I don't have an issue with) - I feel that there needs to be a balnce here which sometimes is missed by service planners.  Actually, there are a good many traditional hymns - especially from the evangelical side - that are individualistic (I Need Thee Every Hour springs to mind).  Indeed, you don't have to look far in Kendrick's writings to see the corporate nature of our Christian fellowship - MP 162 (From Heaven You Came); 427 (Lord, Come and Heal Your Church); 509 (O Lord, the Clouds are Gathering); 579 (Restore, O Lord) to quote just a handful.

 

I can't think of any hymn or worship song which expresses a whole, balanced Christian doctrine - it would be far to long to be of any practical use!  It's inevitable that certain songs/hymns will show a bias to one or two aspects of teaching.  The real art is in service planning to maintain, as far as possible, an overall balance whilst also supporting the theme and aims of the particular act of worship - and that holds good whatever tradition (or mix of traditions) are involved.

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

 

Thanks Tony. I am not saying that there is not traditional repertoire that is not theologically unsound. There are of course well loved hymns such as "when I survey" which of course is very personal, yet we still sing it. Kendrick is not the worst of all composers, in my view at least, but I still think that much of his music and lyrics are quite dodgy.

 

It depends on your viewpoint of course, but I don't think I called anything of his "heritical". Of course the bible gives two quite different accounts of creation in Genesis so it contradicts itself from the beginning of the old testament. Surely the overall theme of this collection of books in the bible is love and not damnation and fire and brimestone which some of Kendrick's lyrics seem to portray. Personally, I think parts of the bible need to be taken with a pinch of salt, that's why I'm not an evangelical and why i have problems with many of their songs and lyrics others are free to disagree with me. I'm not sure that quoting odd verses of scriptures really helps much with worship songs, anyone can take bits they like and find a bit of scripture to back it up, often totally out of context. Many evangelicals quote the verses they like and completely ignore the others. Indeed, they're quite happy to have women in churches when it suits them, but then they very quick to condemn on for example the issue of homsexuality.

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Guest Lee Blick
OK Lee, so name your six joyful Easter hymns in which you have theological objections to the text.

 

Er, I don't. :blink:

 

and is full of marching and victory songs rather than the quiet loving and caring which is what the Gospel is really about

 

I just think this is irrelevant to the debate. The church has always had marching and victory hymns and songs.

 

To be honest it matters not because 'evangelical' music is here to stay whether your particular church likes them or not.

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Guest delvin146
Er, I don't.  :blink:

I just think this is irrelevant to the debate.  The church has always had marching and victory hymns and songs.

 

To be honest it matters not because 'evangelical' music is here to stay whether your particular church likes them or not.

 

Yes Lee, you are right, I agree this music is almost certainly here to stay. I don't think it's too far from the original debate. I did say that neither God's rep and I want to be preching that brand of Christianity, and went some way to try to explaining why. This is why I'm concerned about the worship group because NEITHER of us really wish to be associated with an evangelical stance.

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The concept of Satan as Lord of the earth comes from the Bible - so you can't call it heretical!  (1 Cor 12:10; Jn 12:31; 14:30; to quote just a couple of verses).

 

Yes - the earth is God's creation, and was created good -

 

 

 

==========================

 

I really can't let this one pass without a challenge Tony!

 

The whole religious concept of "Satan" has changed meaning several times since the 'Tanakh', at which point "Satan" was regarded merely as "the accuser" who acted as the prosecuting attorney in God's heavenly court.

 

In Jewish Rabbinic literature, Satan was not seen as an independent entity, which surfaces only in 11th century Jewish commentary, when Rabbi Saadia Gaon referred to Satan as being simply a human being who resented the righteousness of Job.

 

There is only one reference to 'Satan' in the Hebrew Apocrypha, as the 'bringer of lies (deceit)", and this is the source of the name "Satan" as we would understand it.

 

In reality, the concept of Satan as an independent entity and "bringer of evil" is largely confined to Christianty, and especially the theological "Satan" several centuries removed from the origins of original Christianity.

 

Whilst acknowledging that Genesis 3:15 could be constructed as the earliest reference to God crushing the head of the serpent, (which introduced the "tree of knowledge") it is only in Romans 16:20 where this is reconstructed as "the God of peace crushing Satan underfoot".

 

In Eastern Orthodoxy, "Satan" is merely seen as "an enemy" of humanity.

 

In Christian Eschatology, Satan enters into final conflict with God.

 

Other Christian tehologians claim that God will finally triumph over Satan, and that Satan will "turn good" again.

 

Fundamentalists love to quote the book of Daniel, and refer to the battle of Armageddon.

 

Only medieval Christians could equate Satan with a creature growing large horns and with a goat's rear end and forked-tail, and only in the witch-hunts could the harmless, eccentric, poor, simple women of Pendle ("the Pendle Witches") be hanged by their accusers, whilst others were tortured under the regime of Matthew Hopkins or sentenced to death on the grounds that "they could be seen to fly" or "fill pillows with enchanted feathers". Even poor little moggies didn't escape "trial by jury".

 

Wiccan beliefs (such as they are) owe far more to "Pan" than "Satan", and any horns would therefore be little ones like cows have.

 

I'm sorry, but the concept of "Satan" is yet another example of religion using the dialectic argument to its own purposes, by creating the falsehood of duality. In "changing hearts and minds" the imagery of "good and evil", "right and wrong", "black and white" or even "democracy versus evil" are seldom far away, and as God knows, all the best Christians immediately respond by raising their crosses and loading their weapons.

 

I suppose that there is a delicious irony inherent in the fact that a "good" man

will often resort to questioning the intentions of the"liberal thinker," and only a "liberal thinker" could possibly question the motives of a "good man."

 

Interestingly, one of the most beautiful things I have read recently was actually Wiccan in origin (Jamaican in fact!) and one of the most uplifting things I heard on radio over the past year, was the wonderful old judge who single-handedly brought the trials of witches to an end, and to the memory of whom is erected a plaque in Gloucester Cathedral.

 

But he was a jolly man "who laughed 'til he cried" very often.

 

 

 

MM

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Many evangelicals quote the verses they like and completely ignore the others.

 

Many a fine anthem was written that way. ;)

 

I’ve always thought that as Christians, we were followers of Christ. The New Testaments are his life and teachings and so they are the basis of Christianity? There are many contradictions between the Old and New Testaments, but it is the teachings of the New that should guide us through life.

 

:blink:

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Guest Lee Blick
Many evangelicals quote the verses they like and completely ignore the others. Indeed, they're quite happy to have women in churches when it suits them, but then they very quick to condemn on for example the issue of homsexuality

 

I know Catholics who do the same.

 

It is partly why I am not part of the Christian church anymore. I am fed up the politics, the splits and the condemning attitudes towards homosexuals from both sides of the church.

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Guest delvin146

Many a fine anthem was written that way. ;)

 

Yes they were, thankfully they tend to be a little more musically satisfying and less hateful in nature.

 

That said, I do like "be still for the presence" :blink:

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Guest delvin146
They're not all bad.  "In God alone" is another which I quite like.  :blink:

 

There are a few that I quite like actually. I tend to find on balance the quieter ones have stronger lyrics and are musically more sound.

 

I'm not against everything modern, I just think we need to be really selective what we use, as we should be in traditional style.

 

I don't like "Onward Christian soldiers/pilgrims" either.

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I don't like "Onward Christian soldiers/pilgrims" either.

 

 

Now, why do they do that? What's wrong with being Christs soldier? Are we still allowed to be his faithful Servant or is that classist? :blink:

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Now, why do they do that?  What's wrong with being Christs soldier?  Are we still allowed to be his faithful Servant or is that classist?  :blink:

 

 

===================

 

Do you mean like the "All Polish Youth" movement " Młodzież Wszechpolska?"

 

They're all good catholic boys who go to Mass on Sunday, who just happen to wear black-hoods and go around beating up homosexuals and disrupting peaceful demonstrations.

 

You'd have thought that the Poles had learned their lesson after the last neo-fascist occupation......6,000,000 dead was it? (Half of them Jewish)

 

Thank God for the new Polish Prime Minister.....thank God I can't spell his name!!

 

MM

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Guest delvin146
===================

 

Do you mean like the "All Polish Youth" movement " Młodzież Wszechpolska?"

 

They're all good catholic boys who go to Mass on Sunday, who just happen to wear black-hoods and go around beating up homosexuals and disrupting peaceful demonstrations.

 

You'd have thought that the Poles had learned their lesson after the last neo-fascist occupation......6,000,000 dead was it? (Half of them Jewish)

 

Thank God for the new Polish Prime Minister.....thank God I can't spell his name!!

 

MM

 

O catholic boys! Extremest fundamentalism from both sections of the church. I can't stand extremes in either direction.. they all preach hatred of sorts.

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===================

 

Do you mean like the "All Polish Youth" movement " Młodzież Wszechpolska?"

 

They're all good catholic boys who go to Mass on Sunday, who just happen to wear black-hoods and go around beating up homosexuals and disrupting peaceful demonstrations.

 

Um....No.

 

I fail to see how any Christian can behave like that. It totally goes against the teachings of Christ. Probably a miss quote but here goes, “You should Love one another as I have loved you”.

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Guest delvin146
Um....No.

 

I fail to see how any Christian can behave like that.  It totally goes against the teachings of Christ.  Probably a miss quote but here goes, “You should Love one another as I have loved you”.

 

Summed up very nicely by Phil :blink:

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Guest Roffensis

I happen to know that they are vetted by at least one highly qualified minister (as are some other contemporary writers works).

 

That's probably why most are so musically atrocious and have wishy wasy lyrics...yes lyrics. Think of your average supermarket music and it's hard to spot much difference. the traditional hymns have long served perfectly well for the church year, and there is much well written decent stuff out there without needing to resort to amateur drivel. Much of it appeals only to a modern musical taste, and people need educating, not pampering to. What we have today is a consumer church, regardless of it's denomination. There is too much choice, and too little thought to what is to Gods greater glory. Some modern hymns have words that are downright silly, with one line being repeated, such as "Father we adore you", then Jesus, then Spirit. Ok for sunday school level I guess, but hardly worth the time in a service. Or "Jeus take me as I am".......as well as being downright suggerstive, with doubtless someone having a laugh here, just compare that to the "Just as I am" by Maunder, a beautiful hymn, so very humbling.The problem lies in difficult clergy who think they can fill a church with modern hymns and audience participation. It's the same with plush seats, we are not there to be all comfy with ourselves, and be pampered. We need to suffer, on hard seats that do our backs in, it's all about suffering as Christ did on the cross for us. As it is, we suffer only modern music, and some churches may as well go the whole hog with a TV and lampshade on the Altar, there is now so little difference between sacred and secular. And the church is still dying.

 

Richard

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Um....No.

 

I fail to see how any Christian can behave like that.  It totally goes against the teachings of Christ.  Probably a miss quote but here goes, “You should Love one another as I have loved you”.

 

==================

 

Oh crumbs and hassocks!

 

I've obviously been getting it wrong for years.

 

I quite like "The lord of the dance"....but then...I would, wouldn't I?

 

:blink:

 

MM

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