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=========================

 

Which Bible?

 

What translation?

 

 

As for the "Day of Judgement" I can see myself getting into quite an argument, and if he is willing to accept my brief, I think I will call upon Satan to be my advocate.

 

MM

 

Hi

 

NIV (simply because it's what I can access on my computer easily).

 

As for your appearance on the day of judgement - could be entertaining - but probably not. The Last Judgement is serious business.

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

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Guest Roffensis
Hi

 

NIV (simply because it's what I can access on my computer easily).

 

As for your appearance on the day of judgement - could be entertaining - but probably not.  The Last Judgement is serious business.

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

 

Comments like that border on being judgemental, not to mention frivolous.

 

R

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Guest Roffensis

Assuming that most Bibles are broadly similar, which you missed:-

 

No, certain faiths leave out the bits that they don't like, such as the Apocrapha, not to mention Bel and the Dragon. Let's be frank, the Bible as it has come down to us has been more hacked about than anything else one cares to imagine.

 

R

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Assuming that most Bibles are broadly similar, which you missed:-

 

No, certain faiths leave out the bits that they don't like, such as the Apocrapha, not to mention Bel and the Dragon. Let's be frank, the Bible as it has come down to us has been more hacked about than anything else one cares to imagine.

 

R

A little light summer reading if you're interested....James Barr - Scope and Authority of the Bible; Keith Ward - What the Bible really teaches. Interesting stuff.

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Let's be frank, the Bible as it has come down to us has been more hacked about than anything else one cares to imagine.
Oh, I can imagine. The bible must have been mercilessly hacked around before it ever got put down in writing. Anyone who knows anything about medieval oral traditions of story telling knows that there was never any such thing as a definitive text. Orators embellished and changed things as they saw fit for entertaining their audience. There is no reason why the bible should have been any different. To treat it as the literal word of God seems very naive to me. How anyone can regard anything in the Old Testament as literal truth beats me. There's bound to be some mileage, though, especially in the New Testament, in teasing out the common ground in the hope of uncovering something of the "core" text. I'm sure there are scholars who specialise in doing exactly this.

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Guest delvin146
Oh, I can imagine. The bible must have been mercilessly hacked around before it ever got put down in writing. Anyone who knows anything about medieval oral traditions of story telling knows that there was never any such thing as a definitive text. Orators embellished and changed things as they saw fit for entertaining their audience. There is no reason why the bible should have been any different. To treat it as the literal word of God seems very naive to me. How anyone can regard anything in the Old Testament as literal truth beats me. There's bound to be some mileage, though, especially in the New Testament, in teasing out the common ground in the hope of uncovering something of the "core" text. I'm sure there are scholars who specialise in doing exactly this.

 

Wasn't it at the council of nicea that a group were gathered to decide what made it in and what didn't?

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Wasn't it at the council of nicea that a group were gathered to decide what made it in and what didn't?

 

Hi

 

The same old hoary chestnuts! If you actually look properly at the evidence (and ignore the patent rubbish of Dan Brown and his ilk) the contents of the New Testament werfe pretty much settled by common usage long before the Council of Nicea. I've read some of the writings of modern scholars - and it's often clear from their conclusions that they have preconceived ideas (e.g. that miracles don't happen, so they must be later additions). As far as I'm concerned, the Bible is the inspired word of God. Obviously not all is literally true - the parables are obviously fictional stories used to make a point. There are some issues with translation - but that's a different matter - and we're in danger of getting into deep theology, which isn't what this list is about!

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

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Guest Roffensis
Hi

 

The same old hoary chestnuts!  If you actually look properly at the evidence (and ignore the patent rubbish of Dan Brown and his ilk) the contents of the New Testament werfe pretty much settled by common usage long before the Council of Nicea.  I've read some of the writings of modern scholars - and it's often clear from their conclusions that they have preconceived ideas (e.g. that miracles don't happen, so they must be later additions).  As far as I'm concerned, the Bible is the inspired word of God.  Obviously not all is literally true - the parables are obviously fictional stories used to make a point.  There are some issues with translation - but that's a different matter - and we're in danger of getting into deep theology, which isn't what this list is about!

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

Well where does it say parables are fiction? you either take the lot as pure Gospel full stop, or it's pick and mix :P . You are following exactly the attitude of past councils in being selective. The classic line I often hear is this is "God speaking with authority" re the host or H/C or whatever one cares to call it. It's all selective, but the truth is we know little of what is actually "original", pre Nicea or not. I was not around then so would not wish to make any judgement, any more than taking literally everything, particularly with the original damaged texts and missing bits, three different endings to Genesis and general hacking about of the Bible per se.

Really, it all gets most trying to type all this, I simply wanted to reinforce the fact that the Bible is handed down, butchered, and what is or isn't the word of God, we simply do not know. How about talking about organs now, at least they are tangible.

All best,

R

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I understand that the main content of the Old testament was agreed at the academy of Jamnia in AD78.

 

I think we should start another forum for Theology on this discussion board - it's clearly a subject of some interest to members here... Perhaps JPM would oblige...

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The same old hoary chestnuts!  If you actually look properly at the evidence (and ignore the patent rubbish of Dan Brown and his ilk) the contents of the New Testament werfe pretty much settled by common usage long before the Council of Nicea.  I've read some of the writings of modern scholars - and it's often clear from their conclusions that they have preconceived ideas (e.g. that miracles don't happen, so they must be later additions). 

Every Blessing

 

 

 

==================

 

Wasn't it William Hazlitt who wrote about "The ignorance of the learned man"?

 

He was the one who knew all about the tribes and castes of the Kalmuc Tartars, but absolutely nothing about his next door neighbour.

 

"Looking properly at the evidence" thus far in this thread, there is one very important four-letter-word which has yet to be uttered.

 

Who, indeed, is my neighbour?

 

MM

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Guest delvin146
Hi

 

The same old hoary chestnuts!  If you actually look properly at the evidence (and ignore the patent rubbish of Dan Brown and his ilk) the contents of the New Testament werfe pretty much settled by common usage long before the Council of Nicea.  I've read some of the writings of modern scholars - and it's often clear from their conclusions that they have preconceived ideas (e.g. that miracles don't happen, so they must be later additions).  As far as I'm concerned, the Bible is the inspired word of God.  Obviously not all is literally true - the parables are obviously fictional stories used to make a point.  There are some issues with translation - but that's a different matter - and we're in danger of getting into deep theology, which isn't what this list is about!

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

 

I think the best one is in the miracles when Jesus turns water to gallons of wine so they can all have a jolly good time and get really pi***d! Nowhere in the bible so far as I'm aware does it say it was non-alcoholic wine. Of course in many free churches it's ribena communion in case people actually start smiling and enjoying life a little - perish the thought! I actually think it puts quite a human face on Jesus probably Him and the disciples and Mary sitting around getting sloshed and singing Graham Kendrick songs in the style of "Knees up mother brown" or the Jewish equivalent. If you want to be fundamentalist and evangelical about it, that's almost certainly what happened.

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I think the best one is in the miracles when Jesus turns water to gallons of wine so they can all have a jolly good time and get really pi***d! Nowhere in the bible so far as I'm aware does it say it was non-alcoholic wine. Of course in many free churches it's ribena communion in case people actually start smiling and enjoying life a little - perish the thought! I actually think it puts quite a human face on Jesus probably Him and the disciples and Mary sitting around getting sloshed and singing Graham Kendrick songs in the style of "Knees up mother brown" or the Jewish equivalent. If you want to be fundamentalist and evangelical about it, that's almost certainly what happened.

 

I think that by his nature `man' needs something to believe in. God does for me!

 

FF

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I think the best one is in the miracles when Jesus turns water to gallons of wine so they can all have a jolly good time and get really pi***d! Nowhere in the bible so far as I'm aware does it say it was non-alcoholic wine. Of course in many free churches it's ribena communion in case people actually start smiling and enjoying life a little - perish the thought! I actually think it puts quite a human face on Jesus probably Him and the disciples and Mary sitting around getting sloshed and singing Graham Kendrick songs in the style of "Knees up mother brown" or the Jewish equivalent. If you want to be fundamentalist and evangelical about it, that's almost certainly what happened.

 

Hi

 

I know a few Christians who wish this miracle wasn't in the Bible! The attitudes to alcohol actually reflect the Victorian temperance movements more than the Bible's teaching, which is not to get drunk. (Incidentally, I don't think that the Cana story says that anyone got drunk! - wedding celebrations could last several days) The wine was, in my opinion, wine, not grape juice - and I hate the use of Ribena for communion. From preference, I would use real red wine - but we have, at present, to compromise on grape juice here because of the hang-over from the Victorian ideas - hopefully it will change at some point.

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

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Guest delvin146
Hi

 

I know a few Christians who wish this miracle wasn't in the Bible!  The attitudes to alcohol actually reflect the Victorian temperance movements more than the Bible's teaching, which is not to get drunk.  (Incidentally, I don't think that the Cana story says that anyone got drunk! - wedding celebrations could last several days)  The wine was, in my opinion, wine, not grape juice - and I hate the use of Ribena for communion.  From preference, I would use real red wine - but we have, at present, to compromise on grape juice here because of the hang-over from the Victorian ideas - hopefully it will change at some point.

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

 

That's really encouraging news! I've always found the Victorian temperence idea quite a strange one. I like it when sometimes in the bible Jesus actually smiles. Sometimes this is an idea which the church seems to have forgotten sometimes. Would be nice to have a few stained glass windows of "merry" Jesus disciples and Mother in our churches. Maybe one where he's there slapping his knee and waving his wine glass in time to the music. Who knows? Mary might have been quite a good lap dancer after a few sherries!

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That's really encouraging news! I've always found the Victorian temperence idea quite a strange one. I like it when sometimes in the bible Jesus actually smiles. Sometimes this is an idea which the church seems to have forgotten sometimes. Would be nice to have a few stained glass windows of "merry" Jesus disciples and Mother in our churches. Maybe one where he's there slapping his knee and waving his wine glass in time to the music. Who knows? Mary might have been quite a good lap dancer after a few sherries!

 

 

==================

 

I don't drink!

 

There is a good reason for this, because I simply cannot do it.

 

I went to a Choir "Sherry Morning" at Halifax PC many years ago. On an empty stomach after Mattins (remember THAT service?), I drank three small sherries, told the vicar to fill the glasses up so that he could sell more and asked "Who was that strange woman I saw you with in town?" (It was his wife, of course)

 

To my total embarrassment, I stuffed the front of my car into the vicarage gate-post on the way out!

 

For some, temperance is a necessity rather than a life-style option.

 

Others, who shall remain nameless, rattle their way perfectly through "Bach before the mast" and then fall off the harpsichord.

 

Many of my friends are NOT teetotal, and in the convivial atmosphere of English pubs, I ask them deeply serious questions, such as, "Are there many good Scottish organists?"

 

They scowl at me whilst trying to focus, then reply "Don't mind if I do.....cheers. Make it a double."

 

Talk about, "Raising one's asses and drinking to the queer Dean," it seems to be words, rather than music, which most suffer from the effects of intoxication.

 

Actually (he write loftily) the origins of temperance are to be found in 18th century London, when Gin was first produced "for medicinal purposes" at a fraction of the cost of beer. London was awash with the stuff, and "Gin mothers" were a very real problem, with high infant mortality, ill-health, marital violence and dereliction being the order of the day among the working-classes. Young girls were often sold into prostitution to pay for drink.

 

This sad state of affairs is well represented in some of the depictions of London life by the artist Hogarth.

 

I suspect that we are in much the same state to-day, with the binge-drinking on every high-street throughout the land, of a Saturday evening.

 

MM

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it seems to be words, rather than music, which most suffer from the effects of intoxication.
Oh absolutely. My very best performances all seem to be the ones I give after I've had half a bottle of scotch. :lol:

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Oh absolutely. My very best performances all seem to be the ones I give after I've had half a bottle of scotch.  :lol:

 

================

 

Maurice Forsyth-Grant would have been delighted to know that!

 

MM

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From preference, I would use real red wine - but we have, at present, to compromise on grape juice here because of the hang-over from the Victorian ideas - hopefully it will change at some point.

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

 

Possibly an unfortunate turn of phrase, given the subject....

 

Hic!

 

:lol:

:D

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==================

 

 

Talk about, "Raising one's asses and drinking to the queer Dean," it seems to be words, rather than music, which most suffer from the effects of intoxication.

 

MM

 

Um.... pardon me MM, but he (Rev. Spooner) was reputed actually to have said: "Let us glaze our asses to the queer old Dean".

 

(In addition to "You have tasted a whole worm - you must leave immediately by the town drain", etc.)

 

Ronnie Barker has done at least two brilliant sketches using spoonerisms - one used as its basis the story of "Wow Snite and the Devon Swarves".

 

I believe that I have it on video tape somewhere.

 

... those long winter evenings must just fly by ...

 

Are we done with the heavy theological debate now, people?

 

As Rev. Newnham states, this is hardly the place for it.

 

:lol:

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Um.... pardon me MM, but he (Rev. Spooner) was reputed actually to have said: "Let us glaze our asses to the queer old Dean".

 

(In addition to "You have tasted a whole worm - you must leave immediately by the town drain", etc.)

 

Ronnie Barker has done at least two brilliant sketches using spoonerisms - one used as its basis the story of "Wow Snite and the Devon Swarves".

 

I believe that I have it on video tape somewhere.

 

... those long winter evenings must just fly by ...

 

Are we done with the heavy theological debate now, people?

 

As Rev. Newnham states, this is hardly the place for it.

 

:lol:

 

 

==============

 

I shall check this out, but I always understood that Spooner actually said,

"Sir! You were caught fighting a liar in the quad, and you have deliberately hissed all my mystery lectures. You will therefore leave by the next town drain."

 

MM

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==============

 

I shall check this out, but I always understood that Spooner actually said,

"Sir! You were caught fighting a liar in the quad, and you have deliberately hissed all my mystery lectures. You will therefore leave by the next town drain."

 

MM

 

================

 

Sorry, in addition to tasting a whole worm!

 

MM

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I thought all the above spoonerisms were apocryphal. Too good to waste though!

 

Well, indeed VH - and. let's face it, with this excellent weather, no-one wants to be accused of being a shining wit....

 

:blink:

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