John Compton

[jazzboy]

Well I know that Hope-Jones together with Norman & Beard made some extended ranks around 1900. The tuba for instance at Battersea is an extended rank from 16ft through to 4ft. Although it was added in 1903, we believe it was planned for in the original design of 1900 but not initially installed. The organ also has Diaphonic horn, Open diapason and Violin 8ft extended to 16ft as well as slider chests in Swell & Orchestral with 73 pipes in to allow for octave couplers, but you can't really call this a unit organ as such.

[Philip J Wells]

According to BB Edmonds, Brindley and Foster patented a system of duplexing and extension which they called 'metechotic' and their detractors 'metechaotic' but does not give a date. JR Knott in his B&F book quotes Patent11586 from 1889 and I think this is where Edmonds got his information.

PJW

[MusingMuso]

According to BB Edmonds, Brindley and Foster patented a system of duplexing and extension which they called 'metechotic' and their detractors 'metechaotic' but does not give a date. JR Knott in his B&F book quotes Patent11586 from 1889 and I think this is where Edmonds got his information.

PJW

 

===========================

 

 

This seems to be the answer, but I'm not sure that the actual organ was ever built. However, I suppose it's the concept of unification and some means of doing it which is the interesting thing:-

 

http://theatreorgans.com/southerncross/Journal/First%20Unit%20Organ.htm

 

 

Now what interested me about the Compton/Brindley & Foster connection is the fact that Compton appears to have built one of his earliest extension organs, (really a unit organ of four ranks), in 1909, using an entirely pneumatic system. That came as a surprise, but the metachotic system of Brindley's immediately sprung to mind, which used sliderless windchests.

 

Hope-Jones had, of course, beaten him by a couple of years, but Compton wasn't far behind, and one wonders why he pursued this particular path, unless the Selby Abbey fire, (as well as other organ-related fires), hadn't put him off electric-action of any kind.

 

Best,

 

MM

 

 

Of course, Schulze had used extended pedal ranks at Doncaster, and wasn't the fifth manual derived from the rest of the organ, using double pallets.....I forget the details.

[MusingMuso]

Interesting llittle factoid I came across. Compton's first "unit organ" with just 4 ranks of pipes, was entirely achieved with pneumatic action in 1908.

 

I haven't come across any others of this type.

 

Best,

 

MM

[David Drinkell]

Now here is an interesting question, which I throw open to all, perhaps in the hope that someone may know the answer. Who built the first Unit or Extension Organ and when? (ie: a whole organ derived from just a few ranks, rather than bits of extension on the pedals or grooved basses etc) Fair warning, but this isn't an easy one to answer, and I'm a bit surprised at what I suspect I may have discovered. Good luck! Best, MM

 

I'm sure it wasn't quite the first, but Granborough Church, Buckinghamshire used to have a Hill organ which Bernard Edmonds dated at c.1890, consisting of two ranks, diapason and gedeckt, which were extended on tracker action to give a divided 16, 8,8,4,4,2, with pull-down pedals.

 

http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=D00106

 

I played it on one of BBE's 'Padre's Rambles' with the Organ Club about forty years ago. At the time, it had just been overhauled by a reputable firm (maybe Walker), but was prone to runnings and opinion was that it wasn't a total success, but we may have caught it on a bad day - I can't remember if was an unusually hot summer Saturday.

 

Later, according to NPOR, it had a disastrous restoration from another firm and was disposed of to Martin Renshaw for St. Mary's Bay (presumably the one in Kent).

 

BBE referred to it as a 'coelocanth' and, while it probably isn't unique, there can't be many tracker action extension organs of that date around the place.

[MusingMuso]

I'm sure it wasn't quite the first, but Granborough Church, Buckinghamshire used to have a Hill organ which Bernard Edmonds dated at c.1890, consisting of two ranks, diapason and gedeckt, which were extended on tracker action to give a divided 16, 8,8,4,4,2, with pull-down pedals.

 

http://npor.emma.cam...ec_index=D00106

 

I played it on one of BBE's 'Padre's Rambles' with the Organ Club about forty years ago. At the time, it had just been overhauled by a reputable firm (maybe Walker), but was prone to runnings and opinion was that it wasn't a total success, but we may have caught it on a bad day - I can't remember if was an unusually hot summer Saturday.

 

Later, according to NPOR, it had a disastrous restoration from another firm and was disposed of to Martin Renshaw for St. Mary's Bay (presumably the one in Kent).

 

BBE referred to it as a 'coelocanth' and, while it probably isn't unique, there can't be many tracker action extension organs of that date around the place.

 

==========================

 

 

The fact that it was actually built may well make this a first. I suspect that the other one I linked to, probably remained on paper, and would probably have been unplayable in any event.

 

Anyway, it has nothing to do with John Compton, but I found it interesting nonetheless.

 

The Compton book is now at pp.32 and fairly flying along in draft form, but I know it will get a lot more difficult when I get to the technical stuff, of which there is rather a lot.

 

Best,

 

MM

[Philip J Wells]

I was interested to see that from their website: 'Jardine’s were the first British organ builders to design and build an organ specifically for the cinema to accompany silent films'.

PJW

[Philip J Wells]

I know this was mentioned but I can't remember if this page from the internet for the Midgley-Walker pipeless organ has been posted before.

 

http://www.georgesix...brids/page5.htm

 

PJW

[MusingMuso]

I know this was mentioned but I can't remember if this page from the internet for the Midgley-Walker pipeless organ has been posted before.

 

http://www.georgesix...brids/page5.htm

 

PJW

 

 

=====================

 

 

Thank you for this, I have never seen the advertising details previously.

 

I know that there is an obvious link between Compton & Walkers, and between Midgeley & Compton; the former investing in Compton and riding the 1930's slump by supplying things for the cinema organs. The latter was, of course, a director at Compton, but resigned from the board at some stage. The schism was entirely concerned with the electronic-organ patents associated with Compton, which include that of his own and the ones filed by Leslie Bourn/Compton Organs, which apparently trod on toes.

 

I know that after Midgeley resigned from Compton's and filed another patent for something or other, Leslie Bourn was very critical of it by way of a letter to a respected journal. (I have the details buried somewhere)

 

Best,

 

MM

[MusingMuso]

I was interested to see that from their website: 'Jardine’s were the first British organ builders to design and build an organ specifically for the cinema to accompany silent films'.

PJW

 

 

========================

 

 

I seem to recall reading that somewhere, but of course, it wasn't the sort of cinema organ we think about to-day, and definitely not of the "unit orchestra" type.

 

Somewhere, on JSTOR, there is a huge file of organ specifications for all the early cinema organs, and Jardine are included in that, along with Conacher, Willis, Spurden-Rutt, Holt, Fitton and numerous others.

 

For anyone who's really into the history of the motion picture, Bradford was important, because St George's Hall was one of the very earliest venues where motion pictures were shown to the public in Britain, and of course, that had the large Holt concert organ available for accompanment. I think this was just prior to 1900 or so. I vaguely recall very old people mentioning it when I was quite young.

 

Of course, the divisions of the cinema/theatre organs owe a lot to the fair-organs which fronted the bi-scope shows....percussions, solo, counter-melody (sort of automatic double touch) and accompaniment sections, with sliderless ventil chests and incredibly fast pneumatic actions operating from rolls.

 

It's a history all its own; far removed from the classical one, but overlapping nonetheless.

 

Actually, as I mentioned previously, the first bespoke organ-pipes designed for specific cinema use, were probably the ones dating from 1908, which were stitched electrically to a player-piano and installed in a cinema at Tamworth by John Compton, following a dispute between the resident cinema trio and the management.

 

Best,

 

MM

[David Drinkell]

In the same way, wasn't the Albert Hall, Sheffield, converted into a cinema, Andrews of Bradford supplying a new console and pneumatic action to the Cavaille-Coll organ?

[MusingMuso]

In the same way, wasn't the Albert Hall, Sheffield, converted into a cinema, Andrews of Bradford supplying a new console and pneumatic action to the Cavaille-Coll organ?

 

=============================

 

 

Interesting! I bet Brindley & Foster were pleased with THAT. I don't want to get diverted too much, but I'll see if I can find the JSTOR document and take a quick look at those early days of cinema organs.

 

Best,

 

MM

[MusingMuso]

The writing is going nicely....currently at about p.38 (12,000 words approx) and in time, up to about 1925 and the early years in London, which is where it starts to get challenging, not to say interesting.

 

My next port of call are the very clever mechanical devices which Compton developed or invented, rather than the electrical expertise, which will have to wait a little longer, when I hope to know the difference between negative and positive. (Positive red, yes?)

 

Joking apart, I don't want to miss anything out, and I would appreciate a bit of advice and perhaps an answer to one or two questions.

 

First the questions:-

 

1) Did Compton have just three standard (Roosevelt) unit chest designs, as I am led to understand, for which only the top-boards differed?

 

2) Were the unit chests all independently winded, using small regulators?

 

3) Did all the unit chests have ventils, and were they always switchable at the console?

 

4) Did Compton ever use Haskelled basses?

 

Now for the bits I know something about:-

 

1) Bi-phionc basses (both pneumatic (early) and electro-pneumatic)

2) The Compton "cube"

3) The iris valves for pipe regulation

4) The wind-trunking modular construction

5) The "off-centre" valves to reduce the percussive effect of wind at the pipe foot

6) The diaphones

 

No's 1 - 6 I am all right with, but have I missed anything important off the list?

 

Best,

 

MM

[Philip J Wells]

Apparently Reginald Walker brought the details of the Haskelled bass back from the USA when the patent ran out around 1930 and shared them with Compton. Ian Bell believes that some of the very first are at Downside Abbey.

 

Compton also used Kegellade ventil soundboards (Ian Bell).

 

Cube basses did not last for long once Clifford Hawtin had perfected the 32' polyphone (Ian Bell).

 

NB BIOS Journal 23, p52-75; Ian Bell's article 'A survey of the work of John Compton (1874-1957).

 

PJW

[Barry Oakley]

The writing is going nicely....currently at about p.38 (12,000 words approx) and in time, up to about 1925 and the early years in London, which is where it starts to get challenging, not to say interesting.

 

My next port of call are the very clever mechanical devices which Compton developed or invented, rather than the electrical expertise, which will have to wait a little longer, when I hope to know the difference between negative and positive. (Positive red, yes?)

 

Joking apart, I don't want to miss anything out, and I would appreciate a bit of advice and perhaps an answer to one or two questions.

 

First the questions:-

 

1) Did Compton have just three standard (Roosevelt) unit chest designs, as I am led to understand, for which only the top-boards differed?

 

2) Were the unit chests all independently winded, using small regulators?

 

3) Did all the unit chests have ventils, and were they always switchable at the console?

 

4) Did Compton ever use Haskelled basses?

 

Now for the bits I know something about:-

 

1) Bi-phionc basses (both pneumatic (early) and electro-pneumatic)

2) The Compton "cube"

3) The iris valves for pipe regulation

4) The wind-trunking modular construction

5) The "off-centre" valves to reduce the percussive effect of wind at the pipe foot

6) The diaphones

 

No's 1 - 6 I am all right with, but have I missed anything important off the list?

 

Best,

 

MM

 

Nice to know the writing is coming along well, MM. I'm curious to know if you solved the question about the origin of Compton pipework; was it made in-house or acquired from elsewhere? Of course, Ian Bell may be able to answer that question.

 

Was interested to read David Drinkell's piece on the Albert Hall, Sheffield, and to learn that Andrews of Bradford had supplied a new console and action for the Cavaille Coll. I guess that console may well have been designed by the late Frank Mitchell, my last face-to-face Compton contact who joined the company from Andrews and who designed many Compton consoles.

[MusingMuso]

Nice to know the writing is coming along well, MM. I'm curious to know if you solved the question about the origin of Compton pipework; was it made in-house or acquired from elsewhere? Of course, Ian Bell may be able to answer that question.

 

Was interested to read David Drinkell's piece on the Albert Hall, Sheffield, and to learn that Andrews of Bradford had supplied a new console and action for the Cavaille Coll. I guess that console may well have been designed by the late Frank Mitchell, my last face-to-face Compton contact who joined the company from Andrews and who designed many Compton consoles.

 

 

===========================

 

 

I'm not sure that I've identified where Compton obtained pipework, but various sources have come to my attention one way and another. It looks as if Compton made their own basses in wood and zinc, possibly due to the transport costs and difficulties...I'm not sure. It was when I looked at a plan of the workshop area, that I realised just how many organs they were working on at any one time......possibly as many as a dozen consoles alone. taking up about half the factory and with an assembly area at one end. The other side of the (Chase Road) premises seems to have been given over to windchests, regulators and electrical work, which doesn't leave a lot of room for anything else when you're working on so many jobs at the same time.

 

I was thinking about how many pipes they must have used each week, if they were churning out just one 8 rank unit organ. That would be something like a minimum of 600 pipes, or about 120 per day, (assuming 73 note chests) making it almost impossible from a manufacturing point of view, if one considers cutting, casting, forming, soldering and voicing. Each flue pipe has about 8 different pieces, all soldered together, and wooden ones are rather troublesome to make at best. It would amount to something like a thousand bits and pieces per day if it were done in house, and that's just one modest size instrument per week.

 

So the answer has to be....they bought pipes in ready made.

 

Something I didn't realise until three days ago, was the fact that when Compton's came to a working relationship with Walker's, (then based just down the road at Acton), they not only had some of the Walker Directors on the Compton Board, Walker's actually supplied skilled people to work at the Compton premises. So perhaps part of the answer may lie in the fact that with two works close to each other, there was some division of labour and manufacture, which would tie in with the fact that "Compton's had the work and Walker's had the money"....presumably they also had an empty workshop available too!

 

I don't think it really matters where the pipes came from, because it's one of those things which is almost impossible to trace. On the other hand, I can prove that Compton's supplied certain things to Holtkamp in America. Then I wonder about that stupendous Orchestral Trumpet at Hull City Hall.....so un-English as to be positively American....but will we ever know? I'd love to pull one of the reed-pipes apart to see if the shallots had solder inside them!

 

Speculation apart, thanks for the name of the ex-Andrews man, who will be duly added to the list of known employees at Compton.

 

Best,

 

MM

[MusingMuso]

Apparently Reginald Walker brought the details of the Haskelled bass back from the USA when the patent ran out around 1930 and shared them with Compton. Ian Bell believes that some of the very first are at Downside Abbey.

 

Compton also used Kegellade ventil soundboards (Ian Bell).

 

Cube basses did not last for long once Clifford Hawtin had perfected the 32' polyphone (Ian Bell).

 

NB BIOS Journal 23, p52-75; Ian Bell's article 'A survey of the work of John Compton (1874-1957).

 

PJW

 

============================

 

 

Hugely significant information, thank you.

 

There were quite a few comings and goings with American/English ideas.....see previous post in reply to Barry.

 

I'm trying to get my head around the Kegellade thing. I'd always associated the Roosevelt, (single stage pneumatic) with Compton, but with unit chests, the idea of the ventil controlled Keggelade makes perfect sense, and of course, is a throw back to what Brindley & Foster were working with when the young Mr Compton was completing his apprenticeship in Sheffield. (I think I have some homework to do on this).

 

I know that Haskelled basses were quite common in some of the really tricky theatre installations with limited height and space, and of course, most of those were built in the 1930's.

 

You present me with a bit of a puzzle re: Cube basses. Am I wrong, but is your information incorrectly transcribed and/or understood? I say this, because I am aware of two very late 32ft Cube basses.....always known as Polyphonic Cubes.....two types....one down to EEEE and another down to CCCC. I wonder if Ian Bell was referring to the Bi-Phonic pipes, which played two notes each, which are not Polyphones. They certainly feature in many if not all of the theatre jobs,(and one of the church jobs from about 1908) and as that era came to an end around 1945 at the latest, and as I know of two mid 1950's polyphonic cubes, (one very close to me at Ilkley, and another at Wakefield), I think the polyphonic cube outlived the bi-phonic basses. Another thing, the only polyphonic anything is the cube. It's a simple error which is easily made, and earlier in the discussion, someone had to put me right on this matter!

 

Best,

 

MM

[MusingMuso]

Apparently Reginald Walker brought the details of the Haskelled bass back from the USA when the patent ran out around 1930 and shared them with Compton. Ian Bell believes that some of the very first are at Downside Abbey.

 

Compton also used Kegellade ventil soundboards (Ian Bell).

 

Cube basses did not last for long once Clifford Hawtin had perfected the 32' polyphone (Ian Bell).

 

NB BIOS Journal 23, p52-75; Ian Bell's article 'A survey of the work of John Compton (1874-1957).

 

PJW

 

========================

 

 

As an afterthought, I remembered something written by the late Stephen Bicknell about Compton wind-chests during the 1920's, which may make some sense of the Keggelade statement by Ian Bell.

 

As I do not know the facts or the source, I will just quote what SB ahd to say, and we can ponder the implications over a glass of something or other.

 

 

John Compton used sliderless chests for his organs (most of which were

unified to some degree). I have heard it said (but cannot confirm) that

there examples from the late 20s of a type which causes particular distress

to repair men. The pipe valves are in the form of bakelite egg-cups

seating in a leathered cup-shaped hole in the chest, and moving against a

spring. When trying to trace a fault one naturally takes a screwdriver and

removes the faceboard. As you undo the last screw, the force of 61 coil

springs pushes the faceboard out of your grasp and it falls into the organ,

followed by 61 egg-cups and 61 coil springs which trace 122 different

trajectories as they make a determined bid for freedom. When, some hours

later, you have found all the parts (including the ones that rolled under

the bellows, the ones that fell through gaps in the floor-boards, and the

ones that have mysteriously wedged themselves inside the shallots of the

pedal reeds), and have offered them up into the holes, have used 61 rubber

bands, 122 drawing pins and assorted other tricks to hold them temporarily

in position, and have at last got the faceboard back on, it is then time to

stand back and apply the electric current to the wind system - you then

find that all 61 have bedded, over the years, into slightly different

distorted shapes. Where there was originally one cipher there are now

about forty, and you have to start all over again.

 

 

Mmmmm!! Time for a glass of wine.

 

Best

 

MM

[jazzboy]

My understanding is that there were cubes, AND there were polyphonic pipes (in more of a normal pipe shape). Southampton has a 32ft Bourdon polyphonic PIPE - it is a single large wooden pipe of some 8ft tall (from memory) that has compartments up its front that are opened successively by pneumatics, in order to incrementally increase its internal volume. It is NOT a cube. It plays the 32ft octave from B down to E, then repeats E for the remaining 4 notes.

[MusingMuso]

My understanding is that there were cubes, AND there were polyphonic pipes (in more of a normal pipe shape). Southampton has a 32ft Bourdon polyphonic PIPE - it is a single large wooden pipe of some 8ft tall (from memory) that has compartments up its front that are opened successively by pneumatics, in order to incrementally increase its internal volume. It is NOT a cube. It plays the 32ft octave from B down to E, then repeats E for the remaining 4 notes.

 

===========================

 

 

Thanks for drawing attention to that Peter, and actually, coming to think about it, I have this in my files but had forgotten about it. I think Clifford Hawtin was the man who dabbled with the design of this stuff, and there may be drawings among the patents; all of which I've donwloaded when I get around to looking at them in detail.....which is soon.

 

I'm intrigued by the comments of the late Stephen Bicknell, but I wonder if those egg-cup valves weren't from the very early unit-extension chests which operated pneumatically?

 

I'm not sure that any of them survive, because they seem to date from the early Measham days just after the turn of the last century....probably around 1904-10...I would need to check. If they do, I think it highly unlikely that there will be any patents or drawings anywhere, but I'll double check to make sure. It all sounds suspiciously Brindley & Foster to me, and they certainly used their own version of the old Kegellade chests in the "metechotic" system, but as one combined windchest rather than in separate units. The plumbing must have been quite something!

 

Diverting slightly, I know that when things went wrong in the Brindley windchests, the poor organ-builder had to remove all the pipes to get inside, and if there was a persistent fault, it had to be repeated as many times as necessary. That might explain why most were thrown in a skip rather than rebuilt.

 

Best,

 

MM

[Philip J Wells]

MM, I can only quote selected bits from Ian Bell's article as follows. He has 'a leaflet of 1929 showing a stack of seven differing cubes, which incidentally are not to be confused with later polyphones - often described quite wrongly as Compton 32' cubes'. ...

The real cube worked on the ocarina principle. A sealed plywood or block-board box was made, with a small mouth on one side, which produced the lowest note required. A succession of holes, spaced out along the opposite side of the cube, were opened one after the other to raise the pitch a semitone at a time. Each cube would produce 5 or 6 notes, though the later ones were pressed into producing 8. ...

Cubes would not work properly in Swell boxes. ...

The 16' cubes were overtaken in the 1920's by biphonic Bourdon, in which each pipe produces 2 notes, thereby extracting a complete octave from 6 pipes. ...

The polyphone works on the principle of a conventional large-scale stoppered pipe speaking BBB, which becomes deeper in pitch as a succession of additional sealed chambers on its face are opened, adding to its internal capacity.' ...

 

Hope that helps a bit more.

PJW

[MusingMuso]

MM, I can only quote selected bits from Ian Bell's article as follows. He has 'a leaflet of 1929 showing a stack of seven differing cubes, which incidentally are not to be confused with later polyphones - often described quite wrongly as Compton 32' cubes'. ...

The real cube worked on the ocarina principle. A sealed plywood or block-board box was made, with a small mouth on one side, which produced the lowest note required. A succession of holes, spaced out along the opposite side of the cube, were opened one after the other to raise the pitch a semitone at a time. Each cube would produce 5 or 6 notes, though the later ones were pressed into producing 8. ...

Cubes would not work properly in Swell boxes. ...

The 16' cubes were overtaken in the 1920's by biphonic Bourdon, in which each pipe produces 2 notes, thereby extracting a complete octave from 6 pipes. ...

The polyphone works on the principle of a conventional large-scale stoppered pipe speaking BBB, which becomes deeper in pitch as a succession of additional sealed chambers on its face are opened, adding to its internal capacity.' ...

 

Hope that helps a bit more.

PJW

 

=======================

 

 

That's a brilliant run down, and I can now see where I got confused.....people calling the Polyphonics pipes "cubes".

 

I'm slightly disappointed, because I thought we may have a couple of proper cubes near to me, but apparently not, it would seem.

 

However, I'm intrigued by John Compton use a bi-phonic bass as early as c.1908, which were described as "Diapason" basses producing two notes, due to a lack of space. It was probably a one-off, and I have never seen any other reference to it or anything similar in Compton's work.

 

I think, insofar as the polyphones go, all the drawings will be on the patents, so I should be able to work out how they operate.

 

Best,

 

MM

[Philip J Wells]

There is a black and white 28 minute documentary produced by the John Compton Organ Company exploring the manufacture of the Compton Theatre Organ filmed at the Chase Road works in the 1930's. I think it might have been intended for show at an exhibition of some sort. It has been converted to DVD and I picked up a copy on ebay a while ago. There is no reason to assume anything else went on elsewhere and it shows: the Carrillon tower of the factory, the engineering shop, winding coils, engraving stop keys, bakelite moulding, casting pipe metal, making pipes (looked like a string pipe), voicing reeds, the console area, soundboard area, leathering a single rise regulator, electrone discs being engraved and tested.etc. There are lots of people and it looks cramped which is not to say they did not buy stuff in but they look equiped to do everything in house (but blower manufacture was not mentioned).

PJW

[mgp]

My understanding is that there were cubes, AND there were polyphonic pipes (in more of a normal pipe shape). Southampton has a 32ft Bourdon polyphonic PIPE - it is a single large wooden pipe of some 8ft tall (from memory) that has compartments up its front that are opened successively by pneumatics, in order to incrementally increase its internal volume. It is NOT a cube. It plays the 32ft octave from B down to E, then repeats E for the remaining 4 notes.

Saxon Aldred always described these as 'pentatones' - ie a pipe making five pitches so presumably 2 were used to create B down to D??

[RobH]

[

My understanding is that there were cubes, AND there were polyphonic pipes (in more of a normal pipe shape). Southampton has a 32ft Bourdon polyphonic PIPE - it is a single large wooden pipe of some 8ft tall (from memory) that has compartments up its front that are opened successively by pneumatics, in order to incrementally increase its internal volume. It is NOT a cube. It plays the 32ft octave from B down to E, then repeats E for the remaining 4 notes.

 

I've just been tuning an organ (large Hill rebuilt by Compton at Gt Yarmouth)) with a 32' polyphonic pipe today. Very effective, but certainly DOES repeat E for the 4 remaining lowest notes.