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Great 1 Grande 1 Great 2 ?


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I expect a great storm from this one...go mad. My passions are still back with my Cor Anglais so you can't hurt me. (I refer to a previoius post - you may not know anything about this.)

 

What is the right thing to do? Yikes.......

 

Read with care........The Situation: we will call it the 'Great' organ (1/2 under expression) and some pedal at the back of a church - we will call it the 'Choir' organ and 'Swell' organ in the chancel (split left and right side) plus some pedal. [This arrangment has been thought out - space limitations - 'to die for' acoustic -parish liturgical style all factors plus a consultant (concert organist) and a builder all on board - don't focus on the design. Total organ about 30 ranks.]

 

Current plan says we will have the 'Great' on manual 1, 'Choir' on manual 2 and 'Swell' on manual 3. I know this is very unorthodox and in my opinion will make the organ less credible than it may already appear at first glance and confusing to play. Thus, would you give the whole job French lessons and go with Grand-Orgue 1, Positif 2, Recit 3 OR.... insist on the standard Choir 1, Great 2 and Swell 3?

Consider playing a service! You want sound from the 'back' .... oh, easy...bottom manual....or is that the Gt.... manual 1 or 2... darn missed a beat!

 

 

Summary:

Choice A - Great 1, Choir 2, Swell 3

Choice B - Grand-Orgue 1, Positif 2, Recit 3

Choice C - Choir 1, Great 2, Swell 3

Choice D - Fern Organ 1, Quire 2, Schwellwerk 3 :)

None of the above

 

 

 

 

ready,

WM

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Thus, would you give the whole job French lessons and go with Grand-Orgue 1, Positif 2, Recit 3 OR.... insist on the standard Choir 1, Great 2 and Swell 3?

 

 

French perhaps - providing that the pipework is scaled and voiced in a French style - it always seems a bit triste to draw a Trompette and hear a Tromba…

 

If the west-end section is rather far away I’d go for a two-manual Great II, Swell III and part Pedal scheme in the choir, with a third Bombarde/Resonance (yes French terms I know…total hypocrisy) and big pedal stops at the west – played from manual I. A thirty stop limit seems a bit tight but here’s my paper spec (I’ll leave the scaling, mouth widths, pressure, voicing etc. to your imagination):

 

I’m assuming electric action given the layout…I can’t do less than 33 stops and still would want more….not even a clarinet to play with…

 

III Sw P8, F8, S8, C8, P4, F4, P2, MIX, T16, T8, O8 - 11 stops

II Gt P8, F8, S8, P4, F4, F2 2/3, Gems2, 1 3/5 - 8 stops

I Res P16, P8, Har.F8, P4, P2, MIX, T16, T8 - 8 stops

Small Pedal Subbass 16-8, P8-4 - 2 stops

Large Pedal Open 16-8, P4, MIX, T16-8 - 4 stops

 

Couplers:

I, II, III-Ped

II-I, III-I

III-II

 

As for part enclosing the west end section - I dunno - I'd sooner save the money by skipping the swell box (and engine) and have a few more stops instead - alternatively try enclosing the west reeds...

 

Off you go readers - tear this one apart!

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There is a very simple thing called a transfer coupler. Rather than the sort that leave you with nothing at all, how about something simple like Great and Choir Reverse. Or, if you want a little more flexibility, Enclosed Great on Swell maybe?

 

For in my view the perfect flexible scheme for this sort of thing, look at Norwich Cathedral. The "choir-swell" and positive go west - rest of job goes east. Put some space between them (rather than just pointing them in different directions), adjust stoplist to suit - IMHO you'd be hard pushed to find anything more flexible anywhere.

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I expect a great storm from this one...go mad.  My passions are still back with my Cor Anglais so you can't hurt me. (I refer to a previoius post - you may not know anything about this.)

 

What is the right thing to do? Yikes.......

 

Read with care........The Situation: we will call it the 'Great' organ (1/2 under expression) and some pedal at the back of a church - we will call it the 'Choir' organ and 'Swell' organ in the chancel (split left and right side) plus some pedal. [This arrangment has been thought out - space limitations - 'to die for' acoustic -parish liturgical style all factors plus a consultant (concert organist) and a builder all on board - don't focus on the design. Total organ about 30 ranks.]

 

Current plan says we will have the 'Great' on manual 1, 'Choir' on manual 2 and 'Swell' on manual 3. I know this is very unorthodox and in my opinion will make the organ less credible than it may already appear at first glance and confusing to play. Thus, would you give the whole job French lessons and go with Grand-Orgue 1, Positif 2, Recit 3 OR.... insist on the standard Choir 1, Great 2 and Swell 3?

Consider playing a service! You want sound from the 'back' .... oh, easy...bottom manual....or is that the Gt.... manual 1 or 2... darn missed a beat!

Summary:

Choice  A  - Great 1, Choir 2, Swell 3

Choice  B - Grand-Orgue 1, Positif 2, Recit 3

Choice  C  - Choir 1, Great 2, Swell 3

Choice  D  - Fern Organ 1, Quire 2, Schwellwerk 3 :)

None of the above

ready,

WM

 

Where is the console situated? What are the projected time-lags between the various sections? What action will be used?

 

In any case, what about balance? It is possible that some of it will always sound too loud, depending on where one sits in the body of the church.

 

However, insofar as the order of the claviers is concerned, it may be more comfortable for most organists to have them in the order of Choir, Great and Swell, from bottom to top. One can always include a transfer, as David Coram has suggested, (although I prefer the name Great and Choir Exchange), in order to facilitate movements such as the end of the Prélude from the Suite (Op. 5), by Duruflé.

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Where is the console situated? What are the projected time-lags between the various sections? What action will be used?

 

In any case, what about balance? It is possible that some of it will always sound too loud, depending on where one sits in the body of the church.

 

However, insofar as the order of the claviers is concerned, it may be more comfortable for most organists to have them in the order of Choir, Great and Swell, from bottom to top. One can always include a transfer Great and Choir Exchange, in order to facilitate movements such as the end of the Prélude from the Suite (Op. 5), by Duruflé.

 

Hi

 

Interesting project. Personally I'd go for tracker action and a console for each eand, so to speak - but I assume that's not how things work.

 

As to manual designation, to my mind that should reflect the character of the stops, so if it's French sounding, then French names, if it's English, then English names - put the manual number on the department nameplate if you're likely to have lots of visiting organists.

 

Manual order needs some thought. I would want the 2 chancel divisions on adjacent keyboards for obvious reasons, so the West division (why not call it "Nave" and have done with it!) will be either 1 or 3. The next question is the part-enclosed stops at the West End - if you go for a transfer to put them on another manual, then I would put the Nave on 1 with enclosed transfer to 2, then 2 is East choir & 3 East Swell. If you don't bother with the transfer then the question is how much use the Nave section will get in relation to the Chancel section - if it's to be used a lot, then maybe Nave on 1 is possible, if it's only the occaisional hymn, then why not put it on 3 so that the most used departments are closer at hand?

 

Another possibility - based on St. Mary, Warwick which in effect has 2 complete organs, one at each end, played from a common console. 2 manual console, with Nave unenclosed on lower & enclosed on upper; and East Choir on lower, Swell on upper?

 

Whatever - you need to think through how the organ is most used and make decisions based on that.

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

 

As to manual order

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Another possibility - based on St. Mary, Warwick which in effect has 2 complete organs, one at each end, played from a common console.  2 manual console, with Nave unenclosed on lower & enclosed on upper; and East Choir on lower, Swell on upper?

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

 

However, I think that St. Mary's, Warwick is quite an awkward instrument to handle. It is easy to get confused over the layout, the stops are hard to read (a mixture of white, red and blue or green engraving on medium-to-dark wood draw-stops) and the double sets of pistons make for cluttered key-slips.

 

No doubt players of the calibre of Kevin Bowyer quickly became used to it, but I do know several colleagues who found it distinctly unfriendly to play. The console is also in a bad position to assess the balance - and to hear the choir or see the conductor.

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Have a look at this - the printed version of the stoplist is a more complex one than I have seen in other places (where the divisions are better set out) but once one has managed to work out where everything is it makes quite interesting comparison with some of the ideas above.

 

http://www.holyinnocents.org/Schoenstein.htm

 

AJJ

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I expect a great storm from this one...go mad.  My passions are still back with my Cor Anglais so you can't hurt me.

 

 

 

======================

 

I'm saying nuffin.....I'll just upset you!

 

Anyway, try this if you like things complicated:-

 

http://www.die-orgelseite.de/disp/USA_West...CadetChapel.htm

 

It could only be America!

 

:)

 

MM

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Guest paul@trinitymusic.karoo.co.uk

If I have understood the situation correctly, most of the actual playing will be done on the projected Choir and Swell (located in the Chancel) backed up (when extra force is required) by the Great down at the West End? I assume that there will be some Pedal ranks each end to balance with the manuals (at both ends); this is important to the success of the project.

 

 

I suggest you go for a conventional three-manual console controlling the lot, but with four manual divisions. I would strongly suggest that you don't bother with a 'choir' organ as such up at the East End, treat this Chancel section as a conventional two-decker - Great and Swell (manuals 2 and 3 on your console).

 

The West End section then becomes Choir (enclosed) and Bombarde - i.e. big Great.

With Bombarde on Swell, or Bombarde on Great couplers, you can ring the changes/play the flexibility game.

 

Your two enclosed divisons would then be on manuals I and III (as anyone would expect) with unenclosed divisons on I and II (ditto). Choir and Bombarde drawstops could share the same panel, reinforcing the fact that they usually both play from the same manual. The same pistons could also be used. Those hoping to play manuals in French order would have their needs satified with a Great to Choir coupler, because then manual I could be registered as the biggest.

 

If the church is a very large one, you might consider having a separate console for the two 'ends' but hopefully the distance isn 't too big*.

 

Warwick was given as an example of two complete organs playing from the same console - not a terribly happy example because of the console placement which leaves the organist hearing the West End less than almost everyone else in the church. A better example, maybe not known to many readers is at St.Leonard's Hythe (Kent) where there is a conventional three-manual Arthur Harrison at the West End (all pretty healthy) with a smallish two-manual division by Brownes at the East End. These both play (pretty straightforwardly) from the one three-manual console. From memory, I think all of the East End section normally lives on the Choir manual but bits can be transferred ( I think 'East Swell' to man.III and 'East Great' to man.II - just as you would expect).

 

*This business of having two organ placements (with separate consoles) is a bit of a bugbear, you often end up having neither one complete enough for its job. There are two organs at St.James Grimbsy, and the smallness of the Chancel one (derived from about four ranks) condemns the organist to a route march (in public view) at least once in every service. This would be the same at All Saints' Northampton if the 1980s J.W. Walker Chancel Organ was still fit for use! [i don't know how they are currently managing.] At Chelmsford Cathedral, I believe that the West End organ can be played from the East console. A decision to have two consoles definitely adds to both complexity and cost - avoid this if you can.

 

Final warning: I do hope your adviser is not one of those card-carrying purists (ivory-tower dwelling idealists) who will insist on an alternative tracker console being provided for everything!

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I suggest you go for a conventional three-manual console controlling the lot, but with four manual divisions.  I would strongly suggest that you don't bother with a 'choir' organ as such up at the East End, treat this Chancel section as a conventional two-decker - Great and Swell (manuals 2 and 3 on your console).

 

The West End section then becomes Choir (enclosed) and Bombarde - i.e. big Great.

With Bombarde on Swell, or Bombarde on Great couplers, you can ring the changes/play the flexibility game.

 

Final warning: I do hope your adviser is not one of those card-carrying purists (ivory-tower dwelling idealists) who will insist on an alternative tracker console being provided for everything!

 

 

Good plan (and similar to my suggestion in principle!), but how would you distribute the approx. 30 stops over four manuals and pedals?

 

As for dual mechanism - I agree, hardly appropriate for the proposed layout, and far better to have one good action and console, and spend the money on pipes!

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Hi

 

 

As to manual designation, to my mind that should reflect the character of the stops, so if it's French sounding, then French names, if it's English, then English names - put the manual number on the department nameplate if you're likely to have lots of visiting organists.

 

Manual order needs some thought.  I would want the 2 chancel divisions on adjacent keyboards for obvious reasons, so the West division (why not call it "Nave" and have done with it!) will be either 1 or 3.  The next question is the part-enclosed stops at the West End - if you go for a transfer to put them on another manual, then I would put the Nave on 1 with enclosed transfer to 2, then 2 is East choir & 3 East Swell.  If you don't bother with the transfer then the question is how much use the Nave section will get in relation to the Chancel section - if it's to be used a lot, then maybe Nave on 1 is possible, if it's only the occaisional hymn, then why not put it on 3 so that the most used departments are closer at hand?

 

Another possibility - based on St. Mary, Warwick which in effect has 2 complete organs, one at each end, played from a common console.  2 manual console, with Nave unenclosed on lower & enclosed on upper; and East Choir on lower, Swell on upper?

 

 

Tony

 

 

 

 

TONY: Great points! The English/French issue is now clear -after very little thought- the organ colour, church, community--all English. A French console would be silly. The Choir/Great transfer coupler is the only way to handle the issue.

 

The 'nave' organ will get used for a lot for congregational singing, most certainly rep. and with cantor/choir responses.

 

I liked playing with the idea of a 2 manual. It would work! I was pleased that I could think 'smaller' - most organists can't. With lots of pistons and a clear sence of the instrument and where ranks where located (as the organist at St. Mary, Warwick must indeed have) I think it might work fine.

Thanks for giving me the chance to think 'out side the swell box'.

 

thanks again Tony, fine points, thanks for your time. <_<

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I suggest you go for a conventional three-manual console controlling the lot, but with four manual divisions.  I would strongly suggest that you don't bother with a 'choir' organ as such up at the East End, treat this Chancel section as a conventional two-decker - Great and Swell (manuals 2 and 3 on your console).

 

The West End section then becomes Choir (enclosed) and Bombarde - i.e. big Great.

With Bombarde on Swell, or Bombarde on Great couplers, you can ring the changes/play the flexibility game.

 

Those hoping to play manuals in French order would have their needs satified with a Great to Choir coupler, because then manual I could be registered as the biggest.

 

  A better example, maybe not known to many readers is at St.Leonard's Hythe (Kent) where there is a conventional three-manual Arthur Harrison at the West End (all pretty healthy) with a smallish two-manual division by Brownes at the East End.  These both play (pretty straightforwardly) from the one three-manual console.  From memory, I think all of the East End section normally lives on the Choir manual but bits can be transferred ( I think 'East Swell' to man.III and 'East Great' to man.II - just as you would expect).

 

  A decision to have two consoles definitely adds to both complexity and cost - avoid this if you can. 

 

Final warning: I do hope your adviser is not one of those card-carrying purists (ivory-tower dwelling idealists) who will insist on an alternative tracker console being provided for everything!

 

 

 

PAUL: Thanks for the post!

 

East end - yes as Great and Swell as man.II and man.III - I think the best and only choice.

 

I an reluctant to have the 'nave' West organ called a CHOIR organ - just seems odd when the choir is in the chancel. Might better be called the PEOPLE or CONGREGATION organ. <_< Thinking that ECHO will win the day. The builder is reluctant to call it an ANTIPHONAL or NAVE organ...... ECHO is the middle ground at the moment. Also, given the church, the tradition, the style of building, an "ECHO organ" seems to fit best.

 

Two consoles - not in this situation.

 

Tracker - nope not in this situation -will not work.

 

Thanks Paul for your time - great points!

 

WM

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Have a look at this - the printed version of the stoplist is a more complex one than I have seen in other places (where the divisions are better set out) but once one has managed to work out where everything is it makes quite interesting comparison with some of the ideas above.

 

http://www.holyinnocents.org/Schoenstein.htm

 

AJJ

 

 

ALASTAIR: Thanks for the link to Holy Innocents Ep.! Novel concept. A friend at Yale put me onto this kind of thinking early on in the project. Seeing this spec. makes it clearer... eg. the SW mixture available as a stop on the great.... etc.

 

 

Many more options open up for the design of a modest instrument when you think along these lines.

 

Thanks again Alastair! <_<

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TONY: Great points! The English/French issue is now clear -after very little thought- the organ colour, church, community--all English. A French console would be silly. The Choir/Great transfer coupler is the only way to handle the issue.

 

The 'nave' organ will get used for a lot for congregational singing, most certainly rep. and with cantor/choir responses.

 

I liked playing with the idea of a 2 manual. It would work! I was pleased that I could think 'smaller'  - most organists can't. With lots of pistons and a clear sence of the instrument and where ranks where located (as the organist at St. Mary, Warwick must indeed have) I think it might work fine.

Thanks for giving me the chance to think 'out side the swell box'.

 

thanks again Tony, fine points, thanks for your time. :(

 

Hi

 

Glad to be of help. I mentioned St. Mary, Warwick simply because I'd played it breifly a few weeks ago. On the console there the stops for the 2 organs are in seperate blocks on the jambs - one at the top and the other at the bottom relating to the relevant manual, so once you get used to which set of stops relates to which geographical location I should think it's pretty easy.

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

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Hi

 

Glad to be of help.  I mentioned St. Mary, Warwick simply because I'd played it breifly a few weeks ago.  On the console there the stops for the 2 organs are in seperate blocks on the jambs - one at the top and the other at the bottom relating to the relevant manual, so once you get used to which set of stops relates to which geographical location I should think it's pretty easy.

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

 

The 'front' console at Chelmsford Cathedral is like this too and seemingly not difficult to navigate.

 

AJJ

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