Orgelbuchlein - Registrations

[sjf1967]

Fair enough, Stephen. Thank you for the information - I was quite obviously mistaken in my assumption and now I have learned something about this particular piece which I am able to pass on to pupils.

 

I think that all I was trying to say is that we can sometimes limit ourselves to thinking in a limited way about music - particularly the music of J S Bach. I suppose that this discussion is not that far removed from the (probably equally pointless) debate on the most suitable type of organ for Bach's music.

 

However, you have convinced me on this particular matter. Perhaps one day I will save up and purchase one or two different editions - I would be fascinated to see some of the facsimile pages which some publications reproduce.

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I've got a feeling you may be able to find some pages in facsimile on the net somewhere....

[pcnd5584]

I've got a feeling you may be able to find some pages in facsimile on the net somewhere....

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Thank you - I will look when I get home tonight.

 

Presumably just 'Google' Bach facsimile scores - or similar?

[innate]

I've got a feeling you may be able to find some pages in facsimile on the net somewhere....

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I'm no expert on the Orgelbüchlein having learned only a handful of the preludes, but this thread has spurred me to look at them to see what instructions there are from JSB. I have the revised Bärenreiter edition dated 1999.

 

Liebster Jesu, wir sind hier is presented in two versions. The earlier one (BWV 634) is marked "à 2 Clav. et Pedal." and the later one (BWV 633) "distinctius" with no similar words for 2 manuals but the right hand stave is marked f and the left p, which is of course a completely clear indication of 2 manuals.

 

Christ lag in Todesbanden (BWV 625) has no indication for 2 manuals but, in my humble opinion works very well on two manuals, with none of the difficulties or ungainliness of BWV 643. In fact, a two-manual version avoids problems of note-sharing between the cf and the alto part in bars 5 and 8, although a big stretch or "thumbing" is useful in bar 10.

 

Whilst I accept that JSB has been pretty clear in his intentions in OB given that the music only exists in MS form, the collection remains incomplete, and at least some of the rubrics post-date the writing of the music, can we be sure that what we have represents JSB's final thoughts? Particularly as some pieces exist in two versions. Certainly the absence of an engraved version such as we have for CÜIII implies that Bach considered it, in some way, a less important text.

[pcnd5584]

I've got a feeling you may be able to find some pages in facsimile on the net somewhere....

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Hmmm.... not very successful, so far. I have tried about eight sites and all seem to require a subscription to join, or rather convoluted means to acquire a password and log-in details (after one has been 'approved'). It is apparently easier to join the Ann Summers site - or bigandbouncy.com ....*

 

I did find a Barenreiter facsimile edition of the Orgelbüchlein - but at £38.50, plus p+p I cannot currently justify this expense.

 

If anyone knows of a website where it is possible simply to download and view a facsimile edition, I would be grateful.

 

*For the record, I have not tried to gain membership at either site....

 

[Nick Bennett]

Hmmm.... not very successful, so far. I have tried about eight sites and all seem to require a subscription to join, or rather convoluted means to acquire a password and log-in details (after one has been 'approved'). It is apparently easier to join the Ann Summers site - or bigandbouncy.com ....*

 

I did find a Barenreiter facsimile edition of the Orgelbüchlein - but at £38.50, plus p+p I cannot currently justify this expense.

 

If anyone knows of a website where it is possible simply to download and view a facsimile edition, I would be grateful.

 

*For the record, I have not tried to gain membership at either site....

 

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Why not borrow it from your local library? If they aren't completely inept they should be able to get it for you on an inter-library loan. My local library service (Bradford) charges 60p for this service, and has never failed to come up with the goods.

 

By the way, giving them the ISBN number of the publication you want seems to speed up the process no end, and ensures you get the correct publication - i.e. the facsimile rather than a typeset edition. You might well be able to ascertain the ISBN from the internet.

[pcnd5584]

Why not borrow it from your local library?  If they aren't completely inept they should be able to get it for you on an inter-library loan.

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It is not so much that they are inept; rather that, in the case of anything regarding the pipe organ, they seem unable to understand exactly what is required.

 

Previous enquiries have either been met with blank looks, followed by "No, I am sure that is not available." Or, a six-week wait, then a postcard is sent bearing the legend "Try Halifax" - with the names of several other towns crossed-out below this.

[Vox Humana]

Certainly the absence of an engraved version such as we have for CÜIII implies that Bach considered it, in some way, a less important text.

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Not less important. Less definitive, maybe...

 

But isn't all this rather like the "Bach would have used a swell box if he'd had one" argument? It seems people are starting with a vision of how they want to play the piece(s) and forcing the evidence to fit. That is not an approach likely to lead to the truth.

 

Of course it is legitimate to wonder, as I did above, whether Bach may have left a rubric out, but I think it is necessary to see that for the speculation it is. Without other evidence to make a robust case it is worth nothing. Exactly what are the rubrics that Bach added later? Do they include two-manual directions? If so, that might be evidence.

 

One can play O Lamm Gottes on three manuals and pedals at once (i.e. a different tone colour for each contrapuntal line), but there is no reason on earth to suppose that that is what Bach had in mind.

[Vox Humana]

It is not so much that they are inept; rather that, in the case of anything regarding the pipe organ, they seem unable to understand exactly what is required.

 

Previous enquiries have either been met with blank looks, followed by "No, I am sure that is not available." Or, a six-week wait, then a postcard is sent bearing the legend "Try Halifax" - with the names of several other towns crossed-out below this.

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My local library has always been very good at locating some of the sometimes quite récherché things I've asked for. Invariably the item is obtained from the British Library lending division in Boston and take at least three months to arrive.

[pcnd5584]

My local library has always been very good at locating some of the sometimes quite récherché things I've asked for. Invariably the item is obtained from the British Library lending division in Boston and take at least three months to arrive.

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Well, perhaps I shall try this request at my local library. However, on past experience, my hopes are not high.

[pcnd5584]

Not less important. Less definitive, maybe...

 

But isn't all this rather like the "Bach would have used a swell box if he'd had one" argument? It seems people are starting with a vision of how they want to play the piece(s) and forcing the evidence to fit. That is not an approach likely to lead to the truth.

 

Of course it is legitimate to wonder, as I did above, whether Bach may have left a rubric out, but I think it is necessary to see that for the speculation it is. Without other evidence to make a robust case it is worth nothing. Exactly what are the rubrics that Bach added later? Do they include two-manual directions? If so, that might be evidence.

 

One can play O Lamm Gottes on three manuals and pedals at once (i.e. a different tone colour for each contrapuntal line), but there is no reason on earth to suppose that that is what Bach had in mind.

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Actually, I have thought of playing it from the Novello edition, but reading the right-hand part in the pedals (on a 4p reed) and sharing the lower stave between both hands (on a flute, perhaps - or an undulant.)

 

[Vox Humana]

Quite. But strictly speaking he should then have billed it as "by Virgil Fox after sound frequencies and durations by J S Bach." 

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Come to think of it, you can ignore the bit about "durations"....

[innate]

Come to think of it, you can ignore the bit about "durations"....

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If we've learned one thing from the experts in Baroque performance practice it's that durations on the page are only a starting point.

 

Michael

[Vox Humana]

If we've learned one thing from the experts in Baroque performance practice it's that durations on the page are only a starting point.

 

Michael

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Absolutely. But, if we want to be honest in our representations of composers' music, where we go from the starting point ought to be within the parameters of what musicology tells us is acceptable. My dig at Virgil was actually aimed at those - and there seem to be a lot of them (though not necessarily on this forum) - who think the sum total of a given composition is to be found in the dots on the page whereas a "composition" actually involves a more holistic concept encompassing the composer's whole sound world. I see no justification for turning a piece into something completely anachronistic yet still having the gall to foist it on the original composer. It takes more than the right notes.... But we've had this debate before (and it didn't get very far!)

 

(In case you're wondering, yes, I'm being deliberately provocative! )

[JJK]

Come to think of it, you can ignore the bit about "durations"....

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....and the bit about sound frequencies!

 

JJK

[MusingMuso]

But, if we want to be honest in our representations of composers' music.........a "composition" actually involves a more holistic concept encompassing the composer's whole sound world.

 

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=======================

 

The next time I play Bach at a recital, I shall employ one farrier, several horses drawing carts, a cooper, a carpenter, a stone mason, a young liebfrau selling flowers and a barking rabid dog to provide the authentic background sound.

 

 

MM

[Vox Humana]

The next time I play Bach at a recital, I shall employ one farrier, several horses drawing carts, a cooper, a carpenter, a stone mason, a young liebfrau selling flowers and a barking rabid dog to provide the authentic background sound.

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Give me good notice and I'll come and play the part of a grumbling church official!

[DouglasCorr]

A good place to find out more about all Bach’s organ works is in the Peter William’s organ music of J S Bach books. There are two sides on BWV 643.

 

Having a facsimile is jolly good fun, but doesn’t reveal a great deal more than the normal editions – all it says is Alio Modo. My facsimile was published by VEB Deutscher Verlag fur Musik 1981.

 

What I really wanted to write about is a curious incident for me in East Berlin in 1966. I had decided to visit the museum and in the entrance hall a man in a shabby suit came up and made lots of pleasant conversation and asked if there was anything I particularly wanted to see in the museum. I seized my chance and asked to see any music manuscripts by Bach. Instead of conducting me to an appropriate showcase, he invited me up into some offices upstairs. There then followed a rather tense conversation with a smartly dressed man and woman. I didn’t understand what was being said but, from the tones of voice and expressions, it was apparent that the shabby man had some power over the others, who did not really want to comply with his requests. I was then taken .to a small office with a very large fire proof safe. They opened it and proceeded to hand me several original Bach manuscripts, including the Orgelbuchlein. I remember holding the book and turning the pages over, noticing that there was thin gauze covering each sheet. I had a photocopy of the Lee pocket score for Herr Gott, nun schleuss den Himmel auf in my pocket and I compared that with the manuscript ( for some reason…?). Anyway after all of this I just said good bye and was not even pressed into being a spy….!

[Vox Humana]

Another thing about the Orgelbüchlein preludes - and not only them: Does anyone else suspect that the notes at the end of lines of a chorale (i.e. the notes with pauses) are not necessarily to be held for their full notated length? The end of the first line of Jesu meine Freude is a classic case, but there are many others.