Jump to content
Mander Organ Builders Forum

Recommended Posts

The situation: a 30+ rank 3m pipe organ with Gt. Sw. Ch. Pd. and Solo (antiphonal)

Would the following be so unorthodox?... In order to have the Solo Tromba on a manual by itself accompanied by the entire organ (including the Solo foundations) have it available as a draw stop on the Choir manual and not controlled by the Choir Sub/UO/Super couplers. Thus – pull the Tromba on the Choir, and the UO, the Choir foundation stops and couple them to the Great foundations, also couple in the Swell foundations and the Solo foundations to the Great– this is the accompaniment. Follow?

Are there examples of this? Any suggestions?

 

WM

Link to post
Share on other sites
The situation: a 30+ rank 3m pipe organ with Gt. Sw. Ch. Pd. and Solo (antiphonal)

Would the following be so unorthodox?... In order to have the Solo Tromba on a manual by itself accompanied by the entire organ (including the Solo foundations) have it available as a draw stop on the Choir manual and not controlled by the Choir Sub/UO/Super couplers. Thus – pull the Tromba on the Choir, and the UO, the Choir foundation stops and couple them to the Great foundations, also couple in the Swell foundations and the Solo foundations to the Great– this is the accompaniment. Follow?

Are there examples of this? Any suggestions?

 

WM

 

Have a look at what Schoenstein has done in similar situations in the USA - your second choice sounds sensible though - with a Tromba Solo facility that does what you said but without having to draw UO etc. The Buzard organ company (also in the USA) does this frequently - and they have quite a nice website!

 

AJJ

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't see why not. Both here and in America I have encountered organs with a solo reed that is available on all manuals but does not react to the inter-manual couplers. Michael Farley has done this at least twice to my knowledge - at Glenorchy United Reformed Church in Exmouth (which doesn't seem to be on NPOR) and at Kingsteignton.

Link to post
Share on other sites
The situation: a 30+ rank 3m pipe organ with Gt. Sw. Ch. Pd. and Solo (antiphonal)

Would the following be so unorthodox?... In order to have the Solo Tromba on a manual by itself accompanied by the entire organ (including the Solo foundations) have it available as a draw stop on the Choir manual and not controlled by the Choir Sub/UO/Super couplers. Thus – pull the Tromba on the Choir, and the UO, the Choir foundation stops and couple them to the Great foundations, also couple in the Swell foundations and the Solo foundations to the Great– this is the accompaniment. Follow?

Are there examples of this? Any suggestions?

 

WM

 

I'm not sure that there isn't something similar to this at Guildford Cathedral - not to achieve the same end necessarily, but I know it's possible to obtain all sorts of strange mutations by selective use of octave couplers (I think it's something like Transfer Positive to Solo, where it WILL work with the octaves, coupled back to Gt). I would have thought that a tromba and octave would be more useful than sending a comparatively small division to the accompaniment?

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest paul@trinitymusic.karoo.co.uk
I'm not sure that there isn't something similar to this at Guildford Cathedral - not to achieve the same end necessarily, but I know it's possible to obtain all sorts of strange mutations by selective use of octave couplers (I think it's something like Transfer Positive to Solo, where it WILL work with the octaves, coupled back to Gt).  I would have thought that a tromba and octave would be more useful than sending a comparatively small division to the accompaniment?

 

 

It's certainly possible to arrange for a stop not to couple. The example of this I always quote is the En-Chamade Trumpet at Brecon cathedral - this was an intelligent thing to do since it's a fabulous solo stop but no kind of chorus reed. Your arrangement sounds a bit tricky as far as using the Choir stops is concerned - maybe in addition to a Tromba that doesn't couple or maybe instead, you should have a Choir Flues to Great transfer? While you're at it, a Choir Flues to Swell coupler wouldn't add much to the price. Solid state is so easy (providing that you're commissioning it new, of course).

 

That way, if you ever want to couple Tromba to the full organ 'peasant-style', (or maybe your Midnight Mass is suddenly flooded with partially inebriated vocalists of real power) you can still do so.

 

Have fun!

 

By the way, all arguments about extension aside, it would be worth having a 4' version on the same manual - it's only a little bit more switching and 12 tiny treble pipes costing barely £100 more. You'll have to pay for the stopknob/solenoid etc - that's you main expense with this addition. You won't regret it.

 

When I've got a couple of minutes, I'll launch a topic about Clarions which seem to be getting rarer and rarer.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest paul@trinitymusic.karoo.co.uk
It's certainly possible to arrange for a stop not to couple. The example of this I always quote is the En-Chamade Trumpet at Brecon cathedral - this was an intelligent thing to do since it's a fabulous solo stop but no kind of chorus reed. Your arrangement sounds a bit tricky as far as using the Choir stops is concerned - maybe in addition to a Tromba that doesn't couple or maybe instead, you should have a Choir Flues to Great transfer? While you're at it, a Choir Flues to Swell coupler wouldn't add much to the price. Solid state is so easy (providing that you're commissioning it new, of course).

 

That way, if you ever want to couple Tromba to the full organ 'peasant-style', (or maybe your Midnight Mass is suddenly flooded with partially inebriated vocalists of real power) you can still do so.

 

Have fun!

 

By the way, all arguments about extension aside, it would be worth having a 4' version on the same manual - it's only a little bit more switching and 12 tiny treble pipes costing barely £100 more. You'll have to pay for the stopknob/solenoid etc - that's you main expense with this addition. You won't regret it.

 

When I've got a couple of minutes, I'll launch a topic about Clarions which seem to be getting rarer and rarer.

 

 

P.S. Make sure you can still couple your Tromba to the Pedal!

Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't see why not. Both here and in America I have encountered organs with a solo reed that is available on all manuals but does not react to the inter-manual couplers. Michael Farley has done this at least twice to my knowledge - at Glenorchy United Reformed Church in Exmouth (which doesn't seem to be on NPOR) and at Kingsteignton.

 

Hi

 

Perhaps you could send NPOR the details of Glenorchy URC!

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

Link to post
Share on other sites
The situation: a 30+ rank 3m pipe organ with Gt. Sw. Ch. Pd. and Solo (antiphonal)

Would the following be so unorthodox?... In order to have the Solo Tromba on a manual by itself accompanied by the entire organ (including the Solo foundations) have it available as a draw stop on the Choir manual and not controlled by the Choir Sub/UO/Super couplers. Thus – pull the Tromba on the Choir, and the UO, the Choir foundation stops and couple them to the Great foundations, also couple in the Swell foundations and the Solo foundations to the Great– this is the accompaniment. Follow?

Are there examples of this? Any suggestions?

 

WM

 

Transfers offer great possibilities. We had one installed at School in our recent Nicholson rebuild. It will transfer the great 8 and 4 reeds (one extended rank...without the top octave for the 4' however - but what the heck, its rare that you use those pipes!) to the swell and the entire swell to the great. It enables the reeds to be pitched against the rest of the organ, but still the full flexibility of the eintire instrument...as long as you remember the transfer is on - when we first had it, I did introduce a hymn with my hands on the wrong keyboards...a new effect!

Link to post
Share on other sites
Transfers offer great possibilities. We had one installed at School in our recent Nicholson rebuild. It will transfer the great 8 and 4 reeds (one extended rank...without the top octave for the 4' however - but what the heck, its rare that you use those pipes!) to the swell and the entire swell to the great. It enables the reeds to be pitched against the rest of the organ, but still the full flexibility of the eintire instrument...as long as you remember the transfer is on - when we first had it, I did introduce a hymn with my hands on the wrong keyboards...a new effect!

When I was a student in Worcester, the "Great Reeds on Solo" transfer so thoughtfully provided by H&H had the effect, when drawn, of causing the great reeds also to be unaffected by divisional thumb pistons. This to my mind was a near-essential aspect of the set up. If you were accompanying the choir in something that called for a solo trumpet, like Stanford in A or whatever, the Solo Trumpet (in the transept) was far too distant and so you really had to use the great Tromba (pre Woods-Wordsworth) or Posaune (WW). It meant that you could draw the reed with the transfer coupler before you started the piece, and then happily use the Great thumb pistons without needing to worry that the reed would get taken off.

 

This behaviour ceased, I believe, with the Nicolson re-build, and I've rarely found it replicated on other organs. It makes the transfer much less useful if you can't draw the reed in advance in this way.

Link to post
Share on other sites
When I was a student in Worcester, the "Great Reeds on Solo" transfer so thoughtfully provided by H&H had the effect, when drawn, of causing the great reeds also to be unaffected by divisional thumb pistons. This to my mind was a near-essential aspect of the set up. If you were accompanying the choir in something that called for a solo trumpet, like Stanford in A or whatever, the Solo Trumpet (in the transept) was far too distant and so you really had to use the great Tromba (pre Woods-Wordsworth) or Posaune (WW). It meant that you could draw the reed with the transfer coupler before you started the piece, and then happily use the Great thumb pistons without needing to worry that the reed would get taken off.

 

This behaviour ceased, I believe, with the Nicolson re-build, and I've rarely found it replicated on other organs. It makes the transfer much less useful if you can't draw the reed in advance in this way.

 

What a fantastic idea! Just goes to show how much some people think about things. I have been caught out so many times by things like divisionals operating couplers etc that these days I just put everything in generals & accept I might have to change channels a few times.

Link to post
Share on other sites
The situation: a 30+ rank 3m pipe organ with Gt. Sw. Ch. Pd. and Solo (antiphonal)

Would the following be so unorthodox?... In order to have the Solo Tromba on a manual by itself accompanied by the entire organ (including the Solo foundations) have it available as a draw stop on the Choir manual and not controlled by the Choir Sub/UO/Super couplers. Thus – pull the Tromba on the Choir, and the UO, the Choir foundation stops and couple them to the Great foundations, also couple in the Swell foundations and the Solo foundations to the Great– this is the accompaniment. Follow?

Are there examples of this? Any suggestions?

 

WM

 

 

It occurs to me that, if the Solo Tromba is so loud that it requires the full force of the rest of the instrument in order to provide an accompaniment, the best place for the Tromba is in the skip.

 

However, if you really wish to do so, this is comparatively easy to achieve, if the transmission is Solid-State. Simply provide transfer couplers and duplicate draw-stops as necessary.

 

David Coram is partly correct. At Guildford Cathedral, the three GO reeds draw separately on the Choir (and on the Pedal Organ at 32p and 16p). However, there is no Positive transfer listed. There are three couplers, allowing the Positive to be coupled to the GO, Swell or Solo claviers. The booklet does not make clear whether or not the Positive is transferable from the lowest manual if any of these couplers are drawn. For the record, Geoffrey Morgan, who wrote the booklet, appears to forget what his GO 16p reed is called (Trombone, not Double Trumpet), although it would have been instructive to know whether or not the Positive can be transferred from the lowest clavier.

Link to post
Share on other sites
David Coram is partly correct. At Guildford Cathedral, the three GO reeds draw separately on the Choir (and on the Pedal Organ at 32p and 16p). However, there is no Positive transfer listed. There are three couplers, allowing the Positive to be coupled to the GO, Swell or Solo claviers. The booklet does not make clear whether or not the Positive is transferable from the lowest manual if any of these couplers is drawn. For the record, Geoffrey Morgan, who wrote the booklet,  appears to forget what his GO 16p reed is called (Trombone, not Double Trumpet), although it would have been instructive to know whether or not the Positive can be transferred from the lowest clavier.

 

There are no Positive transfers listed because it is a floating division - there is also a Positive to Choir coupler - it doesn't have a keyboard of its own and therefore effectively all Positive couplers are actually transfers.

 

The other thing that happens is that the Positive Gedeckt (being a unit) is also available on the Swell, and on the Pedal (at 16). This enables the Positive to be treated as a 2 manual and pedal organ in its own rights.

 

The bit I can't remember is which manual you have to couple to in order to achieve what - it's something along the lines of the Solo oct/sub will affect the coupled up Positive stops but the Sw ones won't, so thereby you can make all kinds of "fractions" that it doesn't have.

Link to post
Share on other sites
There are no Positive transfers listed because it is a floating division - there is also a Positive to Choir coupler - it doesn't have a keyboard of its own and therefore effectively all Positive couplers are actually transfers. 

 

The other thing that happens is that the Positive Gedeckt (being a unit) is also available on the Swell, and on the Pedal (at 16).  This enables the Positive to be treated as a 2 manual and pedal organ in its own rights. 

 

 

The second part, I was about to add to my post.

 

I suspected that the Positive was a 'floating' division. However, the stops should have been engraved 'Positive on Solo', etc - not 'to'. This would have avoided confusion.

 

For the record, according to the booklet, there is no Positive to Choir. However, under the list of couplers to the Choir Organ, the booklet reads 'Positive to Great' (again). I suspect that this is yet another error....

Link to post
Share on other sites
It occurs to me that, if the Solo Tromba is so loud that it requires the full force of the rest of the instrument in order to provide an accompaniment, the best place for the Tromba is in the skip.

 

 

The tromba is not so loud as to require the full force of the rest of the instrument. It is a fine example from an early 20th C builder.

Link to post
Share on other sites
The tromba is not so loud as to require the full force of the rest of the instrument. It is a fine example from an early 20th C builder.

 

In your original post, you wrote the following:

 

... In order to have the Solo Tromba on a manual by itself accompanied by the entire organ (including the Solo foundations) ... (My emphasis.)

 

Perhaps you will be able to understand my apparent confusion.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...
Guest Andrew Butler

This instrument is probably not well known

 

http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch...ec_index=N14699

 

and on paper looks very much a "child of its time", but actually is amazingly versatile, despite a very dead acoustic - note the "floating" reeds available on choir or great. I believe it to be becoming unreliable and in need of some attention now.

Link to post
Share on other sites

This instrument is probably not well known

 

I know this organ quite well. I used to practise on it during my teens and have played for a few services.

 

There are 3 stop knobs controlling the floating trumpets and two couplers, so it’s perhaps not as convenient an arrangement as it could be. For example you wouldn’t be able to use the 8’ trumpet on the great whilst using 16, 8 & 4 on the choir. I suspect the current arrangement is due to the fact that the action is still partly pneumatic.

 

The “reeds to great”, “reeds to choir” and indeed the “Choir on” couplers can make this organ a little challenging.

 

The organ is something of a caged beast, with its kennel located off the north transept. In the chancel it’s very loud, but in the nave, even with the nave organ, rather tame.

 

If they do rebuild it……hmmmm, I think I’d scrap it and start again.

 

Rob

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Andrew Butler

This instrument is probably not well known

 

I know this organ quite well. I used to practise on it during my teens and have played for a few services.

 

There are 3 stop knobs controlling the floating trumpets and two couplers, so it’s perhaps not as convenient an arrangement as it could be. For example you wouldn’t be able to use the 8’ trumpet on the great whilst using 16, 8 & 4 on the choir. I suspect the current arrangement is due to the fact that the action is still partly pneumatic.

 

The “reeds to great”, “reeds to choir” and indeed the “Choir on” couplers can make this organ a little challenging.

 

The organ is something of a caged beast, with its kennel located off the north transept. In the chancel it’s very loud, but in the nave, even with the nave organ, rather tame.

 

If they do rebuild it……hmmmm, I think I’d scrap it and start again.

 

Rob

 

I actually found it quite manageable, with 1 practice and 1 service a few years ago. I think any rebuild would still need the same disposition, with a Nave section....

 

I actually like the "caged beast" effect for accompaniment, as you can "go to town" and use a lot of organ without drowning things out. For the same reason I quite liked the old HN & B at Chelmsford Cathedral. You could use a lot of organ there - much easier for choir accompaniment than say Ely or Coventry.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...