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===================

 

Are they going to retain the Jacob Epstein "case"?

 

I do hope so!

 

A strange organ. I have an old LP of the thing, with the Guilmant 1st Sonata played on it. I think it was one of those organs that H,N & B did their best with, but from rather dubious beginnings.

 

Pierre should be flying to its rescue, because I believe it contains Hope Jones pipework.

 

Much more important to my mind, is the present state of the organ at Bangor Cathedral, which is a Hill/Compton job of considerable merit.

 

Is it still functioning, and have they got any money to do anything with it?

 

MM

 

Hi

 

One of the recent organ mags says that David Wells is rebuilding it, so presumabloy they have got some money.

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

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Hi

 

One of the recent organ mags says that David Wells is rebuilding it, so presumably they have got some money.

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

 

 

=================

 

 

Excellent news....Bangor is a lovely instrument, and I even have a signed EP recording of it, played by Dr.Leslie Paul; one cathedral organist who was ever so nice. When I was 14 years of age, he allowed me an hour on the organ after morning service!

 

That was two days before I heard the great Geraint Jones play a magnificent recital on the Rushworth & Dreaper at Llandudno PC, and four days before I got to play the organ at Brecon Cathedral.

 

That was a good holiday!

 

MM

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Guest Roffensis
Hi

 

One of the recent organ mags says that David Wells is rebuilding it, so presumabloy they have got some money.

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

 

Well if there anything worth keeping of it, I am sure he will. I do not know the instrument, only from recordings.

 

R

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Guest Roffensis
So does that! 

 

Cynical?  Yeah, right...

 

Me cynical? well it's probably born out of witnessing so much damage done elsewhere needlessly, that makes me suspicious per se when any organ is threatened.

 

I am neither very young now, or inexperienced.

 

R

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I think I'm right in saying that the Hope-Jones organ took a more-or-less direct hit from a parachute mine during WW2, so you'll not find much of it left now!!

 

Rude to say it, I know, but:

Anyone who suggests that the Llandaff Cathedral job is a valuable bit of organ heritage that should be left alone has clearly never heard it in the flesh!  People have, frankly, already tried their best with it (several times/several firms). The Cathedral musicians have been despairing about it for many years. At last, someone appears to be listening. Good luck to them.

 

I may be wrong but I vaguely remember something about problems stemming from the case (George Pace) being listed in some way - does anyone know more about this? There was an article about the organ a few years ago with the Clutton scheme quoted etc.

 

AJJ

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Guest paul@trinitymusic.karoo.co.uk

We need some clarification, here. Somone please clear this up!

 

We were talking about Llandaff in some detail then developments at Bangor came into the story for some reason.

David Wells was then mentioned - so, exactly which organ is he going to sort out?

Surely the one that will get rebuilt rather replaced is the thoroughly decent Hill (with Compton console and action) at Bangor.

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Guest Roffensis
We need some clarification, here. Somone please clear this up!

 

We were talking about Llandaff in some detail then developments at Bangor came into the story for some reason.

David Wells was then mentioned - so, exactly which organ is he going to sort out?

Surely the one that will get rebuilt rather replaced is the thoroughly decent Hill (with Compton console and action) at Bangor.

 

Oh, I heard a rumour David Wells are to restore Bangor, which yes, is a Hill/Compton, and apparently quite a gem. But I thought mention of him earlier referred to Llandaff? It gets so confusing when we are supposed to be talking about x organ, then someone puts something on about some completely different organ (sometimes not even for comparative purposes).

 

Can we not stick with the topics in question?

 

 

R

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I may be wrong but I vaguely remember something about problems stemming from the case (George Pace) being listed in some way - does anyone know more about this? There was an article about the organ a few years ago with the Clutton scheme quoted etc.

 

AJJ

 

 

I don't know, but as both cases form part of the unified scheme of church furniture and architecture designed by Pace, I think it unlikely that either will be allowed to go. However the main case would be more easily modified, but would likely have to keep the same footprint as there are chapels in the north aisle, both to the west and east of the case, although it could possibly expand slightly eastwards.

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I don't know, but as both cases form part of the unified scheme of church furniture and architecture designed by Pace, I think it unlikely that either will be allowed to go. However the main case would be more easily modified, but would likely have to keep the same footprint as there are chapels in the north aisle, both to the west and east of the case, although it could possibly expand slightly eastwards.

 

=========================

 

Good news about Bangor, even if it was a diversion.

 

Now I haven't checked this, but why do I associate the name of Jacob Epstein with Llandaff, when George Pace of York, did all the "sticks and slots" architecture there?

 

Is the statue attached to the concrete "bass-box on stilts" by Epstein?

 

Maybe I am getting confused with Coventry.....maybe I am getting confused....maybe I just am confused.

 

I am alone in thinking that George Pace was completely mad?

 

:mellow:

 

 

MM

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=========================

 

Good news about Bangor, even if it was a diversion.

 

Now I haven't checked this, but why do I associate the name of Jacob Epstein with Llandaff, when George Pace of York, did all the "sticks and slots" architecture there?

 

Is the statue attached to the concrete "bass-box on stilts" by Epstein?

 

Maybe I am getting confused with Coventry.....maybe I am getting confused....maybe I just am confused.

 

I am alone in thinking that George Pace was completely mad?

 

:mellow:

MM

 

Epstein did the statue - Pace the rest.

 

AJJ

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I am alone in thinking that George Pace was completely mad?

 

:mellow:

MM

 

No one could ever say it's a sympathetic piece of ermmm....furniture, but it's typical of the period!

 

R

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No one could ever say it's a sympathetic piece of ermmm....furniture, but it's typical of the period!

 

R

 

If we're talking about the Llandaff positive case - which I think we are - it certainly polarises opinions. If the slots had continued around the front, or it had been faced with a cross or crucifix I don't think I'd like it at all.

 

As it is, I'm fortunate to work just a five minute walk from the cathedral. On a nice summer's day when the traffic's roaring past and the village is busy and I've got a decent lunch-break, I find stepping in through the west door into the cool peaceful cathedral and being struck by the awe-inspiring presence of Epstein's sculpture rather a moving experience.

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Guest paul@trinitymusic.karoo.co.uk
No one could ever say it's a sympathetic piece of ermmm....furniture, but it's typical of the period!

 

R

 

Caution: Off at a tangent!

George Pace was not really a friend to organs, though he was responsible for one good case - New College Oxford. I realise that in context this looks extremely eccentric, but IMHO also brave and 'thoroughly 'of its period'. Pace's case at Llandaff (which we were discussing) I think virtually avoids showing any organ pipes at all...... the sort of thing that would appeal to the current management at Organists' Review. It's a sort of 60's, cheap version of Leeds Parish Church - with all the interest, eccentricity and craftsmanship removed.

 

If you want to see a classic example where George Pace really spoiled things, you should see Rotherham Parish Church. Half of it has received 'The Pace Treatment' - you know, 60s pinnacles, limed oak, matt black lights like descending spiders.....

and then he stopped half-way round. The rest is a lovely, traditional Early English Parish Church. Standing North and looking South, it's still the church it ought to be. Standing South and looking North one feels the powerful urge to vomit.

 

The final insult is what he (or some lesser minion) did to the Snetzler case - which is most definitely still there. The console has been retained in its proper place (en fenetre) and this is enclosed behind perspex and modern framing (if I remember correctly) and lumps of white (?melamine) are screwed to the case to 'link it in' with the modern furnishings to the left. Considering that any complete Snetzler case (with original console) is a rare and precious object, this is just plain vandalism. The question is, how did he/they get away with it?

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I found this about Bangor Cathedral organ:

 

http://www.churchinwales.org.uk/press/0023c.html

 

I do not understand all, though.

 

Pierre

 

That is such an important article I think it is essential to quote at least one sentence here:

 

...yn un o'r tîm cyflwyno rheolaidd ar y rhaglen gan ddarllen y newyddion yn ogystal â bod yn un o bartneriaid Terry Wogan ar ei sioe.

 

Heartwarming stuff indeed. Thank you, Pierre.

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I found this about Bangor Cathedral organ:

 

http://www.churchinwales.org.uk/press/0023c.html

 

I do not understand all, though.

 

Pierre

 

 

Hi

 

That's because it's in Welsh! Try http://www.churchinwales.org.uk/press/0023e.html - but it is rather dated (2000).

 

I have played the Bangor organ - the first time we were on holiday in the area I contacted the organist, and after evensong he locked the cathedral, left us the keys to get out, and set "stay as long as you like".

 

I found it a pretty good example of its breed - and I think there's enough Hill material left, along with the better Compton stuff, to make a good rebuild well worthwhile.

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

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That is such an important article I think it is essential to quote at least one sentence here:

 

...yn un o'r tîm cyflwyno rheolaidd ar y rhaglen gan ddarllen y newyddion yn ogystal â bod yn un o bartneriaid Terry Wogan ar ei sioe.

 

Heartwarming stuff indeed.  Thank you, Pierre.

 

===================

 

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

Since when did an Englishman understand the daft Druids?

 

Now, if Pierre could translate this into Flemish or French, we would all stand a better chance of translating it.

 

Whenever I travel to Wales, I always take OS maps with me, because I can rely on the visual clues rather than try to make sense of the place-names.

 

An Englishman should NEVER ask for directions in Wales. If they smile swetly and speak to you in English, the trick is to listen to what they say and then do the exact opposite!

 

The other bad area is Glasgow, "Aye, well know letma think on it a wee while. Yer tak a leeft 'n they yer go orn a wee while afor takin yer sicund reight, or mabes yer third un. I'm nay so sure, 'cos av ad a wee dram or two, but it's doon ther' anyway."

 

So much for the United Kingdom!

 

MM

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Guest Roffensis
Caution: Off at a tangent!

George Pace was not really a friend to organs, though he was responsible for one good case - New College Oxford. I realise that in context this looks extremely eccentric, but IMHO also brave and 'thoroughly 'of its period'. Pace's case at Llandaff (which we were discussing) I think virtually avoids showing any organ pipes at all...... the sort of thing that would appeal to the current management at Organists' Review. It's a sort of 60's, cheap version of Leeds Parish Church - with all the interest, eccentricity and craftsmanship removed.

 

If you want to see a classic example where George Pace really spoiled things, you should see Rotherham Parish Church. Half of it has received 'The Pace Treatment' - you know, 60s pinnacles, limed oak, matt black lights like descending spiders.....

and then he stopped half-way round. The rest is a lovely, traditional Early English Parish Church. Standing North and looking Sotuh, it's still the church it ought to be. Standing South and looking North one feels the powerful urge to vomit.

 

The final insult is what he (or some lesser minion) did to the Snetzler case - which is most definitely still there. The console has been retained in its proper place (en fenetre) and this is enclosed behind perspex and modern framing (if I remember correctly) and lumps of white (?melamine) are screwed to the case to 'link it in' with the modern furnishings to the left. Considering that any complete Snetzler case (with original console)  is a rare and precious object, this is just plain vandalism. The question is, how did he/they get away with it?

 

As always with you Paul, a balanced and educated post. How did they get away with it? probably a case of talking to the "right" people at the "right" time, these things happen, best not go there.

 

Of course it is full blown vandalism, and there is treatment of similar but smaller nature given to, for example, consoles. No effort is made with lighting, how often do we see see ugly modern white platic light fittings, hideous flourescent lights, pieces of card held on by tape to conceal the same, drawing pin holes, music clips that do not match, keys recovered in cheap white plastic, and a whole host of ugly additions to period consoles, that would also make one want to vomit. Here the organ has ceased to be a work of art, but rather has become a work machine. You would not see that done to cars eg!

 

One Liverpool church has a hideous battle ship grey swell box for an organ, with 8,4,2 outside right behind your back. Meanwhile the old facade of the old organ (Willis) has been screwed (nailed?) to the box end facing down the church, with the old music stand and jambs/stop holes intact. it looks a joke, and this is called organ building.

 

R

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At the risk of an overtly crude first entry as a newbie, a former pupil of Robert Joyce once told me that his tutor has referred to the Llandaff organ as the Jayne Mansfield of cathedral organs - "all t*t* and a*s* and nothing of any real substance"!!

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Guest paul@trinitymusic.karoo.co.uk
At the risk of an overtly crude first entry as a newbie, a former pupil of Robert Joyce once told me that his tutor has referred to the Llandaff organ as the Jayne Mansfield of cathedral organs - "all t*t* and a*s* and nothing of any real substance"!!

 

LOL

 

P. :lol:

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Guest Roffensis
At the risk of an overtly crude first entry as a newbie, a former pupil of Robert Joyce once told me that his tutor has referred to the Llandaff organ as the Jayne Mansfield of cathedral organs - "all t*t* and a*s* and nothing of any real substance"!!

 

 

I do not think I have ever heard of one Jayne Mansfield.

 

One wonders if she reads the evening news?

 

:lol::lol:

 

R

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===================

 

:lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

 

Since when did an Englishman understand the daft Druids?

 

Now, if Pierre could translate this into Flemish or French, we would all stand a better chance of translating it.

 

Whenever I travel to Wales, I always take OS maps with me, because I can rely on the visual clues rather than try to make sense of the place-names.

 

An Englishman should NEVER ask for directions in Wales. If they smile swetly and speak to you in English, the trick is to listen to what they say and then do the exact opposite!

 

The other bad area is Glasgow, "Aye, well know letma think on it a wee while. Yer tak a leeft 'n they yer go orn a wee while afor takin yer sicund reight, or mabes yer third un. I'm nay so sure, 'cos av ad a wee dram or two, but it's doon ther' anyway."

 

So much for the United Kingdom!

 

MM

 

 

There are some of us Welshmen who don't understand the 'daft druids' too. Being as part of my gainful employment often requires the pronunciation of Welsh place-names in the course of what might be termed public speaking, I've discovered that it's a great idea to make friends with a few of the said Druids, who can point your syllables in the right direction :)

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I do not think I have ever heard of one Jayne Mansfield.

 

One wonders if she reads the evening news?

 

:lol:  :lol:

 

R

 

 

How refreshing Roffensis - you are clearly a refined person of tender years!

 

Reading the news (at any time of day) was not an activity for which she was well known.

 

A

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There are some (few) good stops, but I agree that this is an organ that has needed replacing for quite a while.  I wouldn't say this about many instruments.

 

The statement about the intended Llandaff project being the first new UK-built cathedral instrument since Coventry is mistaken. St.Chad's Birmingham certainly qualifies, as does Chelmsford and probably a number of others.

 

Ummm.... I think that David was referring (tongue-in-cheek) to the perceived lack of ability with the Llandaff web designer....

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