Worcester Cathedral

[Lucasorg]

That nicely sums up the pros and cons of Rodgers' toasters. You are getting an uncompromisingly american instrument. When we were choosing for my own church a couple of years ago we took the view that we didn't want to have stops that would sing 'ooh' and sing 'Amen', but we did want a clarinet.

Actually, it is not umcompromisingly American - but it does have a number of American features.

[pwhodges]

May I add my thanks to Adrian for his patience in spite of some provocative comment. The information has been very helpful. The loss of something familiar and comfortable is always sad, but it doesn't mean that what replaces it is necessarily worse. I think it is only sensible that we should wait to hear the new instruments rather than pre-judge them.

Agreed. It is worth remembering that this age is obsessed with history and preserving the past, possibly because of a crisis of confidence in our ability to match it. However, although the past should not be thrown out indiscriminately, it must also be whittled down to allow in the new things which future generations can then argue about preserving!

 

Paul

[Guest Andrew Butler]

I must say I admire Adrian for expending the time to reply to comments on this topic. I agree that we must now look forward and be constructive with our comments. Otherwise Adrian might go the same way as the much missed SJF.

 

Ed

 

There you are, Roffensis, someone else thinks the same as me

[Guest Lee Blick]

May I add my thanks to Adrian for his patience in spite of some provocative comment. The information has been very helpful. The loss of something familiar and comfortable is always sad, but it doesn't mean that what replaces it is necessarily worse. I think it is only sensible that we should wait to hear the new instruments rather than pre-judge them.

 

JC

 

Hear, hear. It is indeed an exciting project, even more so if the Nave organ is voiced on French lines.

[Lucasorg]

Hear, hear. It is indeed an exciting project, even more so if the Nave organ is voiced on French lines.

Thanks for all the support over the past few messages and also to all those of you who have sent private messages.

 

Shall we move back onto the other thread.....Quire organ, work in progress? I think it has a better atmosphere!

 

A

[Colin Harvey]

Hear, hear. It is indeed an exciting project, even more so if the Nave organ is voiced on French lines.

How will we know if it's been voiced on French lines?

 

However, looks like an exciting project at Worcester - Good luck!!

[Guest delvin146]

What an unrealistic world you live in.

We did - they tried - they failed three times.

 

Your next suggestion, Maestro?

 

I suppose the other way forward would be to locate the "skip" somewhere in the Malvern Hills or wherever it might/may be, get back a principal chorus and couple of flutes and a few reeds. Knock it all together and connect it up on one of the old soundboards. Pity the old organ couldn't have stayed and miked-up for nave services. A mic in the nave and speaker relay to the old console might have worked. I suppose also another digital organ company might be able to repair the toaster where the others fail?

[Guest Lee Blick]

I suppose the other way forward would be to locate the "skip" somewhere in the Malvern Hills or wherever it might/may be, get back a principal chorus and couple of flutes and a few reeds. Knock it all together and connect it up on one of the old soundboards. Pity the old organ couldn't have stayed and miked-up for nave services. A mic in the nave and speaker relay to the old console might have worked. I suppose also another digital organ company might be able to repair the toaster where the others fail?

 

devlin, what is your point exactly?

[pcnd5584]

I suppose the other way forward would be to locate the "skip" somewhere in the Malvern Hills or wherever it might/may be, get back a principal chorus and couple of flutes and a few reeds. Knock it all together and connect it up on one of the old soundboards. Pity the old organ couldn't have stayed and miked-up for nave services. A mic in the nave and speaker relay to the old console might have worked. I suppose also another digital organ company might be able to repair the toaster where the others fail?

 

Delvin - I am not sure that this is helping anything.

[Guest delvin146]

devlin, what is your point exactly?

 

Basically, as much as I think we should look to the new organ, a stupid amount of money has been wasted on building a brand new organ, when the old organ could almost certainly have been overhauled and made good for a fraction of a sum of building a new one. We've been told it was beyond redemption, whereas a significant number of people seem to feel otherwise.

 

The we have further money being wasted on having electronics put in. I suggested the old organ could perhaps have stayed a little longer rigged up to the nave as indicated above whilst the new one was being built rather than importing additional electronics. (Actually it's been planned to have a replacement electronic for quite some time as it was mentioned on an electronic organ builders site a very long time ago, in the case of Worcester). Perhaps the local firm of Nicholsons might have a supply of good quality second hand pipework and they might be able to rig up a good quality temporary organ at a fraction of the cost of hiring/buying a new digital perhaps?

 

The whole project seems to throw money here there and everywhere, whilst there may well be a good number of parishes in the diocese who could do with a cut of the money raised and where it could have been put to much better Christian and charitable uses. We'd all like a new car wouldn't we.

[Lucasorg]

Basically, as much as I think we should look to the new organ, a stupid amount of money has been wasted on an organ which could have been overhauled almost certainly for a fraction of a sum of building a new one. We've been told it was beyond redemption, whereas a significant number of people seem to feel otherwise.

 

In fact the proportion being spent on the new Quire organ is quite comparable with the cost of completely overhauling the old one. While the other sections of the project go beyond this figure, so does the scope of what we could have achieved by simply retaining the old configuration. Our aim is to create musical provision for the Cathedral which will not be frowned upon by our successors in 100 years time or more.

 

The we have further money being wasted on having electronics put in. I suggested the old organ could perhaps have stayed a little longer rigged up to the nave as indicated above whilst the new one was being built rather than importing additional electronics. (Actually it's been planned to have a replacement electronic for quite some time as it was mentioned on an electronic organ builders site a very long time ago, in the case of Worcester). Perhaps the local firm of Nicholsons might have a supply of good quality second hand pipework and they might be able to rig up a good quality temporary organ at a fraction of the cost of hiring/buying a new digital perhaps?

 

Incorrect. The old organ had reached a point where it could not sustain adequately the daily round of services. We have purchased the electronic in the Quire with an agreed buy-back price should we wish to take this up. This, in balance, is considerably less than the cost of a long-term hire and it was the wish of the Chapter to retain our centuries-old tradition of choral services with a broad cross-section of repertoire. Your suggestion of rigging up microphones might work for a congregational service but is quite ridiculous for accompanying a choir at a distance of probably 100 metres.

 

The whole project seems to throw money here there and everywhere, whilst there may well be a good number of parishes in the diocese who could do with a cut of the money raised and where it could have been put to much better Christian and charitable uses.

Incorrect again. In fact we are negotiating a deal on the second organ which is,as yet, incomplete. It would be unwise of me to go into these details at this stage but suffice it to say that our stewardship of the very limited resources available to us demand the closest scrutiny. We do not spend money, particularly at this scale, without considerable discussion and thought.

 

A

[Guest delvin146]

In fact the proportion being spent on the new Quire organ is quite comparable with the cost of completely overhauling the old one. While the other sections of the project go beyond this figure, so does the scope of what we could have achieved by simply retaining the old configuration. Our aim is to create musical provision for the Cathedral which will not be frowned upon by our successors in 100 years time or more.

Incorrect. The old organ had reached a point where it could not sustain adequately the daily round of services. We have purchased the electronic in the Quire with an agreed buy-back price should we wish to take this up. This, in balance, is considerably less than the cost of a long-term hire and it was the wish of the Chapter to retain our centuries-old tradition of choral services with a broad cross-section of repertoire. Your suggestion of rigging up microphones might work for a congregational service but is quite ridiculous for accompanying a choir at a distance of probably 100 metres.

Incorrect again. In fact we are negotiating a deal on the second organ which is,as yet, incomplete. It would be unwise of me to go into these details at this stage but suffice it to say that our stewardship of the very limited resources available to us demand the closest scrutiny. We do not spend money, particularly at this scale, without considerable discussion and thought.

 

A

 

Thank you for explaining that. I think in reality some of us are going to have our own ideas about the scheme. There's cases on either side, but not everyone will remain convinced the old organ needed to go. Best of luck with the new one, I hope it satisfies.

[contrabordun]

Look, I'm sick of this, and I know others are too. Adrian Lucas has answered reasonable and courteous questions with good grace and patience. In his place I would long since have tired of repeating the same things in a forum, which, when all's said and done, represents nobody except its two dozen or so regular participants.

 

Delvin, if you don't like what's been done - and if you have any evidence for the more upleasant things you have been implying - the proper address for your complaints is the Dean and Chapter of Worcester Cathedral, under whose authority the work is done and with whom the responsibility rests.

[Guest delvin146]

Look, I'm sick of this, and I know others are too. Adrian Lucas has answered reasonable and courteous questions with good grace and patience. In his place I would long since have tired of repeating the same things in a forum, which, when all's said and done, represents nobody except its two dozen or so regular participants.

 

Delvin, if you don't like what's been done - and if you have any evidence for the more upleasant things you have been implying - the proper address for your complaints is the Dean and Chapter of Worcester Cathedral, under whose authority the work is done and with whom the responsibility rests.

 

Exactly, it's nothing to do with me at all. Of course the responsibility rests with the Dean and Chapter of Worcester Cathedral. On the other hand how often do you get DOA's who refuse to let a new organ into the church because the old one "has been perfectly acceptable for the last X number of years". Seems to be a whole different ball game at Worcester. It seems it was good enough for Elgar. How many quotes were obtained for the work I will never know, and rightly, so it's none of my business anyway.

[Guest Roffensis]

There you are, Roffensis, someone else thinks the same as me

 

 

?? Explain, please??

 

R

[contrabordun]

I would direct you to the relevant topic if i could remember which it was!

Can anyone help please...? Sorry!

http://web16713.vs.netbenefit.co.uk/discus...ost&p=15204

et seq

[nfortin]

On the other hand how often do you get DOA's who refuse to let a new organ into the church because the old one "has been perfectly acceptable for the last X number of years". Seems to be a whole different ball game at Worcester. It seems it was good enough for Elgar.

A number of us put forward similar arguments at length last year, but this serves no useful purpose. Its time to move on and accept, with thanks, Adrian Lucas' willingness to provide us with progress reports on the new instrument.

 

I think you'll find that the instrument in its final form had little in common with that known to Elgar.

[Guest delvin146]

A number of us put forward similar arguments at length last year, but this serves no useful purpose. Its time to move on and accept, with thanks, Adrian Lucas' willingness to provide us with progress reports on the new instrument.

 

I think you'll find that the instrument in its final form had little in common with that known to Elgar.

 

I'd agree we should certainly thank Adrian for his welcome contributions. IMHO it was probably left better than Elgar would have known it but doubtless he would have recognised some of it. I don't see any harm in discussing things politely because that is the whole point of a discussion forum. Whether our not any of what is discussed is our personal business is entirely another matter of course. I do not think people should be afraid to voice their own opinions, I think most people would realise that in the end it is not the opinions of a few on a discussion forum which really cut any ice.

[Guest Lee Blick]

Why don't you go further and sack most of the choir and just have a quartet sharing a mic....together with a cheapo hammond salvaged from a knackers yard...

[Guest delvin146]

Why don't you go further and sack most of the choir and just have a quartet sharing a mic....together with a cheapo hammond salvaged from a knackers yard...

 

I wouldn't do that at Worcester! I think a nice Rushworth Apollo organ would be a much finer alternative.

[Guest Roffensis]

http://web16713.vs.netbenefit.co.uk/discus...ost&p=15204

et seq

 

 

Aha, many thanks for enlightening me. I thought I had something to do with another poster's departure. I am relieved to learn otherwise.

 

R

 

I think you'll find that the instrument in its final form had little in common with that known to Elgar.

 

 

Most definitely so!

 

R

 

IMHO it was probably left better than Elgar would have known it but doubtless he would have recognised some of it.

 

Cannot agree. Elgar knew a much finer and more coherent instrument. He would doubtless recognise the transept case though!! Not anything else! I'm sure he would have delighted in that charming Orchestral Trumpet , which I have to say I would be first to sling!!! Personally, I think it was a horrible noise!!

 

R

[contraviolone]

.

[Phil T]

Thank you for explaining that. I think in reality some of us are going to have our own ideas about the scheme. There's cases on either side, but not everyone will remain convinced the old organ needed to go. Best of luck with the new one, I hope it satisfies.

 

Delvin, I can see that you’re very passionate about this subject, but the decision has been made. We should thank Adrian for sharing all he has and hope he will continue to do so. I’m sure the choices at Worcester were made after much careful thought and with an eye for the future as well as the present.

 

[Guest Roffensis]

Having knocked Tickell a little bit in a previous posting, I have served some penance by taking a look at the Stage 1 Scheme (for the Quire Organ), and a very interesting scheme it looks too. I see no point going on about the past...unless of course you have access to a time machine....I'd like one to get back to NDdP a la 1970s, but the CDs/vinyl will have to suffice I'm sure the aficionados of the Old Beast can rely on their recordings as well

 

 

Yes there are many and varied recordings of the old organ, with and without choir, to keep us happy in our dotage! Regarding the new organ, the organ spec. actually looks very well worked out. I notice the 2 two foot registers on the Great, so that there is a chorus of Diapasons and also Flutes, the latter which are varied. There are also two "twelfths"....one actually a Nasard. Also a Gamba. I notice also that it isn't "spiked up" with mixturework.

 

As I said, the spec looks really very good to me, I was actually very pleasantly surprised. I also like the shallow cases, which will certainly not spoil the architecure.

 

Richard.

[contraviolone]

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