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Guest Roffensis

Worcester Cathedral

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Guest delvin146
Yes there are many and varied recordings of the old organ, with and without choir, to keep us happy in our dotage! Regarding the new organ, the organ spec. actually looks very well worked out. I notice the 2 two foot registers on the Great, so that there is a chorus of Diapasons and also Flutes, the latter which are varied. There are also two "twelfths"....one actually a Nasard. Also a Gamba. I notice also that it isn't "spiked up" with mixturework.

 

As I said, the spec looks really very good to me, I was actually very pleasantly surprised. I also like the shallow cases, which will certainly not spoil the architecure.

 

Richard.

 

I'd have to agree with all the comments posted about the new spec. I'm quite sure the new organ will sound very well indeed, not least because there's nobody who would want egg on their face after all the discussion about it. I just hope it's voiced along the lines of the old organ with plenty of gravitas. Is there any news with regard to the scaling and proposed voicing style of the pipework? Ie. Chiffy flutes or smooth? Rolling old English diapason tone or with more classical in style? Slightly French perhaps? Would be interesting to know.

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Guest Roffensis
I'd have to agree with all the comments posted about the new spec. I'm quite sure the new organ will sound very well indeed, not least because there's nobody who would want egg on their face after all the discussion about it. I just hope it's voiced along the lines of the old organ with plenty of gravitas. Is there any news with regard to the scaling and proposed voicing style of the pipework? Ie. Chiffy flutes or smooth? Rolling old English diapason tone or with more classical in style? Slightly French perhaps? Would be interesting to know.

 

 

Well for my pennerth, I think there is the chance to do something unique at Worcester. "Gravitas" is fine....used conservatively, but far more important are clarity and colourand variety.Well developed choruses, Mixtures that do not scream, Flutes that are not all the same but which still blend (yes it can be done)......both chiffing and non chiffing, defined pedal stops, lack of thickness to facilitate counterpoint, softer registers to use to accompany a choir, good reeds that do not obliterate everything else, no 200 inch WP Foghorns, good smaller reeds such as Clarinets and so on, are all, in my book, ideals.

 

I loved the old organ, as a sound, but if one were to start from scratch, would one want to build in that style today? Are we saying we have nothing to say today? must all organs sound the same? We have come a long way, not least from ridiculously high wind pressures, and huge scale pipework. One would never want to see altered a vintage Harrison, but would we necessarily want to duplicate that sound today. I personally would not. I'd want to play and hear a musical instrument, able to convey music.

 

R

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Guest delvin146

I loved the old organ, as a sound, but if one were to start from scratch, would one want to build in that style today?

 

Yes! We've discussed on other threads what horrors get born otherwise...enough said. We go for chiffing flutes, spitting diapasons and thin brash reeds nowadays and wonder why it leads our English choral tone astray. Perhaps that's unfair in some cases, but in others it is. It's not often nowadays one comes across an organ with any gravitas. Worcester had it. It seems to be the trend to have them going vertical with very little to underpin it. Hats off to a builder who provides a comprehensive specification nowadays with enough underpinning tonally it at the bottom at 16' 8' diapason tone both manuals and pedals. That would be a remarkable achievement indeed and a welcome one.

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We go for chiffing flutes, spitting diapasons and thin brash reeds nowadays and wonder why it leads our English choral tone astray.
Does it? I'm puzzled now. I thought this was supposed to be due to the incompetence of cathedral DOMs. ( :rolleyes: ) So which organs have been directly responsible for the sort of choral tone you decry then?

 

Anyway, do we still go for "chiffing flutes, spitting diapasons and thin brash reeds nowadays"? Sounds rather '60s to me. Haven't we largely moved away from that in recent years? (Genuine question.)

 

You need to move to the south west, Delvin. Plenty of stodge down here for you.

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Guest Lee Blick
We go for chiffing flutes, spitting diapasons and thin brash reeds nowadays and wonder why it leads our English choral tone astray

 

Not necessarily. Hear Mander's work at Chelmsford Cathedral. There are no screeching mixtures there or chiffing flutes there. The ensemble is well balanced even in a rather dead acoustic.

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I loved the old organ, as a sound, but if one were to start from scratch, would one want to build in that style today?

 

Yes! We've discussed on other threads what horrors get born otherwise...enough said. We go for chiffing flutes, spitting diapasons and thin brash reeds nowadays and wonder why it leads our English choral tone astray.

 

I think you need to look around you. The 60's (and, for that matter, the 70's, 80's and 90's) are over :rolleyes:

 

Seriously, why are we bothering with this discussion? We've gone over this ground countless times.

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Regarding the new organ, the organ spec. actually looks very well worked out. I notice the 2 two foot registers on the Great, so that there is a chorus of Diapasons and also Flutes, the latter which are varied. There are also two "twelfths"....one actually a Nasard. Also a Gamba. I notice also that it isn't "spiked up" with mixturework.

 

See this post back on the other thread....

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I must say I admire Adrian for expending the time to reply to comments on this topic. I agree that we must now look forward and be constructive with our comments. Otherwise Adrian might go the same way as the much missed SJF.

 

 

Ed

 

 

Amen. But if you haven't got an instrument at the moment, you've probably got a lot of spare time. (Joke, you know).

 

Still waiting for your programme......

 

Cheers

Barry

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Guest Roffensis
See this post back on the other thread....

 

 

I had not remembered that post. Of course it is a Norganist who cannot see the sense in the Worcester spec. Any musical organist worth his salt is going to like it. :rolleyes:

 

R

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Guest delvin146
Does it? I'm puzzled now. I thought this was supposed to be due to the incompetence of cathedral DOMs. ( :rolleyes: ) So which organs have been directly responsible for the sort of choral tone you decry then?

 

Anyway, do we still go for "chiffing flutes, spitting diapasons and thin brash reeds nowadays"? Sounds rather '60s to me. Haven't we largely moved away from that in recent years? (Genuine question.)

 

You need to move to the south west, Delvin. Plenty of stodge down here for you.

 

I actually miss my roots in the south west at times :lol:

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Guest Roffensis
I actually miss my roots in the south west at times :rolleyes:

 

 

I miss my roots in South East all the time!, not least Canterbury.

 

R

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Guest Lee Blick

Adrian, I know you can't give away an awful lot about the Nave organ but I noticed on the old organ there is a Gravissima 64'. Will there be a provision for this stop on the new nave organ?

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Guest Roffensis
Adrian, I know you can't give away an awful lot about the Nave organ but I noticed on the old organ there is a Gravissima 64'. Will there be a provision for this stop on the new nave organ?

 

 

I thought that was disconnected yonks ago? What would you use it for?

 

R

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Adrian, I know you can't give away an awful lot about the Nave organ but I noticed on the old organ there is a Gravissima 64'. Will there be a provision for this stop on the new nave organ?
I thought that was disconnected yonks ago? What would you use it for?

 

R

 

The lower octave of the “Gravissima” was acoustic. There is no mention of when this stop was removed or disconnected in the information I’ve got, but there is no mention of it post 1978.

 

:unsure:

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Guest Lee Blick
I thought that was disconnected yonks ago? What would you use it for?

 

R

 

To connect it to the new 64' Eclair of course!

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Adrian, I know you can't give away an awful lot about the Nave organ but I noticed on the old organ there is a Gravissima 64'. Will there be a provision for this stop on the new nave organ?

 

Does it have any musical value?

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Does it have any musical value?

 

The effect of the resultant 64p at Liverpool (at the end of a quiet piece) was distinctly odd - it seemed to give a vaguely out-of-tune rumble. Certainly it was better when just the quiet 32p flues were used.

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The effect of the resultant 64p at Liverpool (at the end of a quiet piece) was distinctly odd - it seemed to give a vaguely out-of-tune rumble. Certainly it was better when just the quiet 32p flues were used.

 

I’ve never liked acoustic bases; I’ve never heard one that sounded “right”.

 

:unsure:

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Guest Cynic
I’ve never liked acoustic bases; I’ve never heard one that sounded “right”.

 

:unsure:

 

 

Ah now....

IMHO It is always worth trying. When one is borrowing a quint from a rank that is already on electric action, it's very little effort to try. Like you, I know several acoustic stops that are immediately irritating rather than in any way helpful. I even know some 'correctly tuned' independent Quints that still don't 'work' but when they do, and it may not be for every note of a scale they're worth having.

 

I included a 'faked' 32' in a little house organ scheme recently - the bottom twelve are all borrowd from the Bourdon at 10.2/3 and from middle C of the pedalboard (i.e. note 13) notes are wired to the correct (i.e. the 16') pipes. It's really pretty good, well worth the effort. Put it this way, under full organ it more than passes muster - genuine gravitas and an encouraging rather than discouraging rumble.

 

What is your opinion on the Grand Cornet of 32' effect [as installed by Comptons at Downside, Fleet Street and several other large organs and copied elsewhere by others]? For me, most of these are very effective indeed - provided that one does not try to draw them too early. Once decent 16' reeds are 'on', one of these is a very fair replacement for a soft 32' reed and practically no expense at all.

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Ah now....

 

What is your opinion on the Grand Cornet of 32' effect [as installed by Comptons at Downside, Fleet Street and several other large organs and copied elsewhere by others]? For me, most of these are very effective indeed - provided that one does not try to draw them too early. Once decent 16' reeds are 'on', one of these is a very fair replacement for a soft 32' reed and practically no expense at all.

 

I’ve never come across the “Grand Cornet of 32’ effect” so sadly can’t make any comment on the subject. If it works and sounds “right” then it’s worth doing I guess? How do you achieve the effect?

 

:unsure:

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Ah now....

IMHO It is always worth trying. When one is borrowing a quint from a rank that is already on electric action, it's very little effort to try. Like you, I know several acoustic stops that are immediately irritating rather than in any way helpful. I even know some 'correctly tuned' independent Quints that still don't 'work' but when they do, and it may not be for every note of a scale they're worth having.

 

I included a 'faked' 32' in a little house organ scheme recently - the bottom twelve are all borrowd from the Bourdon at 10.2/3 and from middle C of the pedalboard (i.e. note 13) notes are wired to the correct (i.e. the 16') pipes. It's really pretty good, well worth the effort. Put it this way, under full organ it more than passes muster - genuine gravitas and an encouraging rather than discouraging rumble.

 

What is your opinion on the Grand Cornet of 32' effect [as installed by Comptons at Downside, Fleet Street and several other large organs and copied elsewhere by others]? For me, most of these are very effective indeed - provided that one does not try to draw them too early. Once decent 16' reeds are 'on', one of these is a very fair replacement for a soft 32' reed and practically no expense at all.

 

Doesn't the bottom end of the 32' Salicional at Llandaff Cathedral have some sort of combination of harmonics to achieve a 32' effect? I seem to remember reading this somewhere. I've never played a big Cavaille Coll so can't really comment myself but don't the 32' harmonics do something similar - Gloucester too etc.?

 

AJJ

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Guest Cynic
I’ve never come across the “Grand Cornet of 32’ effect” so sadly can’t make any comment on the subject. If it works and sounds “right” then it’s worth doing I guess? How do you achieve the effect?

 

:rolleyes:

 

 

The best answer you would get about this would be from Geoffrey Morgan and/or The Shepherd brothers (who have installed/arranged several of these) but roughly, you draw from any dull flute ranks the intervals of a 7th chord, and the brain supplies the missing bottom note!

 

Example for bottom C would be

10.2/3 gives GG

8' gives another C

6.3/5' gives E

5.1/3 gives G

4.4/7' gives a B flat

 

On a flute of the right strength, this is enough to more than slightly suggest a 32' reed. Comptons, of course, had several ranks to draw from - ideally the C will be the strongest and the B flat the weakest of the flute ranks available.

 

Come on, Geoffrey (I know you read these posts) - have I got that right?

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Doesn't the bottom end of the 32' Salicional at Llandaff Cathedral have some sort of combination of harmonics to achieve a 32' effect? I seem to remember reading this somewhere. I've never played a big Cavaille Coll so can't really comment myself but don't the 32' harmonics do something similar - Gloucester too etc.?

 

AJJ

 

At Llandaff, I believe that the Salicional is carried down to G in open pipes, then the lowest seven notes are acoustic.

 

At Nôtre-Dame, the 32p mutations (Grosse Quinte 10 2/3p, Tierce 6 2/5p, Quinte 5 1/3p and Septième 4 4/7p) actually give a more impressive 32p than the Principal 32p. Pierre Cochereau used them often; however, on the occasions that I have been up in the loft, Philippe Léfébvre does not seem to use them much at all.

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