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Mander Organs
Guest Roffensis

Worcester Cathedral

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Guest Andrew Butler
For Psalm 106 v.24.

 

Huh? :rolleyes:

 

I can think of several other suitable verses in Ps 106 - haven't got psalter to hand, but isn't there, for example, a verse about the earth swallowing up Dathan - but 24?? Am I missing something subtle?

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Huh? :huh:

 

I can think of several other suitable verses in Ps 106 - haven't got psalter to hand, but isn't there, for example, a verse about the earth swallowing up Dathan - but 24?? Am I missing something subtle?

I'm glad I'm not the only one to find this a bit obscure!

 

:rolleyes: JC

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I'm glad I'm not the only one to find this a bit obscure!

 

:rolleyes: JC

I think 107 v 24 fits the bill

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I can think of several other suitable verses in Ps 106 - haven't got psalter to hand, but isn't there, for example, a verse about the earth swallowing up Dathan - but 24?? Am I missing something subtle?
I'm glad I'm not the only one to find this a bit obscure!
That's coz I got the bleedin' psalm wrong! I meant Ps 104 v.26. Dyslexia lures, KO!! :rolleyes:

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I think 107 v 24 fits the bill

 

these see the works of the LORD,

and his wonders in the deep.

 

 

Ah yes, the submariners verse.

 

:rolleyes:

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The best answer you would get about this would be from Geoffrey Morgan and/or The Shepherd brothers (who have installed/arranged several of these) but roughly, you draw from any dull flute ranks the intervals of a 7th chord, and the brain supplies the missing bottom note!

 

Example for bottom C would be

10.2/3 gives GG

8' gives another C

6.3/5' gives E

5.1/3 gives G

4.4/7' gives a B flat

 

On a flute of the right strength, this is enough to more than slightly suggest a 32' reed. Comptons, of course, had several ranks to draw from - ideally the C will be the strongest and the B flat the weakest of the flute ranks available.

 

It should include the 9th - D. A ninth chord (EGBbD) on a bland stopped diapason above a pedal C will generally give a fair imitation.

 

You don't need a particularly heavy registration if the rank used is soft enough - the new one at Christchurch Priory will work very handsomely under sw (closed) to Cornopean - just the thing.

 

That's coz I got the bleedin' psalm wrong! I meant Ps 104 v.26. Dyslexia lures, KO!! :rolleyes:

 

I was told last night by one of our choirmen about the agnostic dyslexic insomniac, who lays awake at night wondering if there's a dog...

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Guest Cynic
I was told last night by one of our choirmen about the agnostic dyslexic insomniac, who lays awake at night wondering if there's a dog...

 

 

Or the 'born-again' seat belt - the happy clappy lappy strappy

 

 

 

(I'll get my coat!)

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Guest Lee Blick
I’ve never come across the “Grand Cornet of 32’ effect” so sadly can’t make any comment on the subject. If it works and sounds “right” then it’s worth doing I guess? How do you achieve the effect?

 

:rolleyes:

 

I came across one at Hull City Hall. I thought it was naff. I hate Acoustic Bass stops. It is nothing like the real thing. If your church is big enough to get one, have the real thing.

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Guest Cynic
I came across one at Hull City Hall. I thought it was naff. I hate Acoustic Bass stops. It is nothing like the real thing. If your church is big enough to get one, have the real thing.

 

 

Sorry, don't remember the one at Hull City Hall - mind you, there is plenty of bass there already including a whapping 32' reed.

 

I am convinced that neither the St.Bride's Fleet Street or Downside Abbey organs would sound anything like as good as they do (in Tutti) without these clever compound stops. I agree that if you have room (and cash, obviously) it is a good idea to have the real thing, but 'clever and sometimes effective' ? - sure.

 

Please pardon me for asking, Lee, which other Grand Cornet of 32' stops have you heard besides the Hull example?

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Sorry, my question possibly would fit better into the "Nuts and bolts" section, but being not so much acquainted with electrically controlled instruments (but will be in future, therefore I'm asking)...:

On the Tickell website, it is announced that the new Worcester Quire Organ will have electroPNEUMATIC action. Could Mr Lucas perhaps explain more, or anybody with interesting answers to my question? I mean, why is having pneumatic elements as part of the action (will there be slider chests?) more suitable than having only electromagnetic pallet drives? From continental view, pneumatic action was suitable for those older cone-chest actions, where heavy loads had to be moved. So how about larger english organs?

Thanks and greetings

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Guest Cynic
Sorry, my question possibly would fit better into the "Nuts and bolts" section, but being not so much acquainted with electrically controlled instruments (but will be in future, therefore I'm asking)...:

On the Tickell website, it is announced that the new Worcester Quire Organ will have electroPNEUMATIC action. Could Mr Lucas perhaps explain more, or anybody with interesting answers to my question? I mean, why is having pneumatic elements as part of the action (will there be slider chests?) more suitable than having only electromagnetic pallet drives? From continental view, pneumatic action was suitable for those older cone-chest actions, where heavy loads had to be moved. So how about larger english organs?

Thanks and greetings

 

 

The virtue of an electro-pneumatic action is that the electric component reacts very quickly indeed - a small chest magnet simply exhausts a power motor; an appropriate-sized power motor then shifts absolutely any size of pallet without strain. All this happens extremely promptly. The electricity consumption of such a stystem is very low and the inertia/momentum question is not a problem either. Some purely electric pulldown magnets do not give a comparable performance* and consume a lot of current.

 

*These heavy-duty solenoids are increasingly used in dual action/dual console situations. I imagine that there are very good ones on the market, and there are bound to be several styles that I have no practical experience of but (in practice) I still believe that the performance of an electro-pneumatic system ought to beat them for both response and repetition.

 

Some physicist would be able to tell you exactly why, but I think mass and/or momentum are the key to it.

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Some purely electric pulldown magnets do not give a comparable performance* and consume a lot of current.

Also, the high current consumption, which is maintained while the pallet is held open, gives rise to appreciable local heating which could become an issue.

 

Paul

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Thank you so far! And, regarding the (recent designs of the) pneumatic motor of such EP systems:

Is also the "release", the "note-off movement", powered (like in Cavaillé-Coll's barker lever)? Or didn't I get it right, and, as Cynic told, that a power motor is being "exhausted" - so the "note-on movement" is caused by a depressurization? (in German: "Abstromprinzip" opposite to "Zustromprinzip" - pressurization to make the note sound)... Thanks for more information!

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Guest Cynic
Thank you so far! And, regarding the (recent designs of the) pneumatic motor of such EP systems:

Is also the "release", the "note-off movement", powered (like in Cavaillé-Coll's barker lever)? Or didn't I get it right, and, as Cynic told, that a power motor is being "exhausted" - so the "note-on movement" is caused by a depressurization? (in German: "Abstromprinzip" opposite to "Zustromprinzip" - pressurization to make the note sound)... Thanks for more information!

 

 

It is more than depressurisation - essentially the wind inside the underaction makes the motor collapse smartly when it is (electrically) exhausted. I believe that most Barker lever systems depend on the power motors filling with air, causing a small lever on one end of the motor to pull the action train down.

 

This still seems (in practice) both a natural and prompt system, whether one is filling or emptying a motor. The key to efficiency is to make the motors of a generous size. Usefully, in the electro-pneumatic system, these motors are inside and therefore much less noisy in operation. Of course, once again, there are so many designs and elaborations that this is a broad generalization. The Willis family alone gained a number of patents for different versions, each one more subtle than the last.

 

I wonder if I am alone in regretting the tendency these days for almost every builder to go for individual slider solenoids for a new stop action rather than go to the bother of constructing electro-pneumatic stop machines as in the days of yore. Not only are the electro-pneumatic ones capable of exerting greater force (slides are less likely to stick) but they cannot heat up or consume current to anything like the same extent. I have also known slider solenoids to fail after a relatively short period of service.

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I came across one at Hull City Hall. I thought it was naff. I hate Acoustic Bass stops. It is nothing like the real thing. If your church is big enough to get one, have the real thing.

 

Indeed, but the HCH 'harmonics of 32' isn't meant to be anything like the real thing, in isolation. It should be blended into the rest of the pedal chorus.

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The virtue of an electro-pneumatic action is that the electric component reacts very quickly indeed - a small chest magnet simply exhausts a power motor; an appropriate-sized power motor then shifts absolutely any size of pallet without strain. All this happens extremely promptly. The electricity consumption of such a stystem is very low and the inertia/momentum question is not a problem either. Some purely electric pulldown magnets do not give a comparable performance* and consume a lot of current.

 

*These heavy-duty solenoids are increasingly used in dual action/dual console situations. I imagine that there are very good ones on the market, and there are bound to be several styles that I have no practical experience of but (in practice) I still believe that the performance of an electro-pneumatic system ought to beat them for both response and repetition.

 

Some physicist would be able to tell you exactly why, but I think mass and/or momentum are the key to it.

 

Without seeing the solenoids, the following is a guess. The larger the solenoid, the larger it’s associated electro-magnet. An electro-magnet is essentially an inductor. An inductor opposes current flow through it (back emf), it likes to be either on, or off (very simplified). Back emf in a solenoid would tend to slow the solenoids response.

 

:)

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Also, the high current consumption, which is maintained while the pallet is held open, gives rise to appreciable local heating which could become an issue.

 

Paul

 

You also have to look at what is doing the current switching (turning on/off the solenoid). Tied into this is method of transmission from console to wind chest. If the transmission uses modern digital techniques then the o/p from whatever processor being used is likely to have a very limited current capacity. You would have to build a driving device capable of switching high currents, more expense, more power needed, bigger power supplies etc etc

 

:)

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