OmegaConsort Posted December 27, 2006 Share Posted December 27, 2006 Apologies straight away if anyone has already mentioned this (a quick glance down the postings would suggest not) but I have only just got round to reading my copy of Church Times from December 22nd and noticed the following in the "Your Questions / Your Answers" section on page 12, and I quote in full: "If the church organist posts a critical and offensive comment about the family service and the vicar on a blog for organists, what action should a PCC member take in support of the Vicar?! I just thought it might be worth bringing this to the attention of everyone? Best wishes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Coram Posted December 27, 2006 Share Posted December 27, 2006 Apologies straight away if anyone has already mentioned this (a quick glance down the postings would suggest not) but I have only just got round to reading my copy of Church Times from December 22nd and noticed the following in the "Your Questions / Your Answers" section on page 12, and I quote in full: "If the church organist posts a critical and offensive comment about the family service and the vicar on a blog for organists, what action should a PCC member take in support of the Vicar?! I just thought it might be worth bringing this to the attention of everyone? Best wishes hehe... was the question posed by Disgruntled of Romsey? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
innate Posted December 28, 2006 Share Posted December 28, 2006 Apologies straight away if anyone has already mentioned this (a quick glance down the postings would suggest not) but I have only just got round to reading my copy of Church Times from December 22nd and noticed the following in the "Your Questions / Your Answers" section on page 12, and I quote in full: "If the church organist posts a critical and offensive comment about the family service and the vicar on a blog for organists, what action should a PCC member take in support of the Vicar?! I just thought it might be worth bringing this to the attention of everyone? Best wishes <pedant mode on> This isn't a blog, it's a Discussion Board. <pedant mode off> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
contrabordun Posted December 28, 2006 Share Posted December 28, 2006 surely that should be <pedant mode> and </pedant mode> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vox Humana Posted December 28, 2006 Share Posted December 28, 2006 "If the church organist posts a critical and offensive comment about the family service and the vicar on a blog for organists, what action should a PCC member take in support of the Vicar?!I wonder what answers will be given. The sensible thing would be for the vicar to sit down with the organist, discuss in a rational and friendly manner the grounds for the comments, consider impartially whether they might contain some valid points and try to negotiate some amicable agreement. Alternatively the PCC could arraign him, cry "Crucify him! Crucify him!" and have him hung out to dry. After all, the established church has always rather liked this solution, ever since the very earliest days of Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJJ Posted December 28, 2006 Share Posted December 28, 2006 The sensible thing would be for the vicar to sit down with the organist, discuss in a rational and friendly manner the grounds for the comments, consider impartially whether they might contain some valid points and try to negotiate some amicable agreement. One would hope that this would be the solution but as you say..........................! I know of a church - mercifully very far from where I now 'operate' where anything that looks like 'boat rocking' is greeted with almost violent suspicion from the establishment - not however including the present incumbent. If I were organist there I would have probably resorted to counselling by now or just resigned. Things can only operate smoothly using the VH method outlined above - in my opinion anyway! AJJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tribunegallery Posted December 28, 2006 Share Posted December 28, 2006 Apologies straight away if anyone has already mentioned this (a quick glance down the postings would suggest not) but I have only just got round to reading my copy of Church Times from December 22nd and noticed the following in the "Your Questions / Your Answers" section on page 12, and I quote in full: "If the church organist posts a critical and offensive comment about the family service and the vicar on a blog for organists, what action should a PCC member take in support of the Vicar?! I just thought it might be worth bringing this to the attention of everyone? Best wishes Wasn't there a recent posting on this list?!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Bennett Posted December 28, 2006 Share Posted December 28, 2006 In business, slagging off your employer in public is usually considered to be gross misconduct, and anybody doing so would normally be subject to summary dismissal. There have been a number of such cases in the news recently. Anyway, how would you feel about your vicar making critical and offensive comments about you on his blog? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vox Humana Posted December 28, 2006 Share Posted December 28, 2006 Anyway, how would you feel about your vicar making critical and offensive comments about you on his blog?I wouldn't like it - obviously. But whether I threw my toys out of the pram and flounced off into the sunset would, I think, depend on how critical and offensive the remarks were. Similarly, if an organist makes a thoroughly ad hominem attack on his vicar then a summary dismissal would be understandable. I think it's an issue of degree. There was, as Neil says, a recent example here. I didn't take all that much notice of that post at the time and can't relocate it now (maybe it's been deleted), but I don't recall it being personal in nature. Maybe I just have a bad memory. Nick is right that, in business, slagging off your employer in public is likely to get you the sack, but a business employs staff in order to make profits and therefore cannot be expected to tolerate behaviour that will damage those profits. If you are employed by a business you know that this is how it is and therefore what to expect. But I would not want to hold it up as a good role model for the church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJJ Posted December 28, 2006 Share Posted December 28, 2006 Do vicars have blogs? AJJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajt Posted December 28, 2006 Share Posted December 28, 2006 Nick is right that, in business, slagging off your employer in public is likely to get you the sack, but a business employs staff in order to make profits and therefore cannot be expected to tolerate behaviour that will damage those profits. If you are employed by a business you know that this is how it is and therefore what to expect. But I would not want to hold it up as a good role model for the church. Call me cynical, but isn't the church *really* all about money? When was the last time you heard about Anglican church that thought it had enough money? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DQB123 Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 Call me cynical, but isn't the church *really* all about money? When was the last time you heard about Anglican church that thought it had enough money? Yeah... that's right folks.... it's all about money.... Hey we need a new pipe organ for the organist to play for a couple of hours a week, and guess what... the organ builder is going to build it for free; Oh, and yippee.... the organist is going to play it for free. Oh and by the way, British Gas is going to give us our supply for free and Scottish Power, the same. What's that about the leaky roof? Oh the Vicar's wages? S/he can do it for free too--- after all s/he doesn't pay any bills does s/he... C'mon.... if you think that the church is really all about money, then you must be living on another planet to the rest of us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajt Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 Yeah... that's right folks.... it's all about money.... Hey we need a new pipe organ for the organist to play for a couple of hours a week, and guess what... the organ builder is going to build it for free; Oh, and yippee.... the organist is going to play it for free. Oh and by the way, British Gas is going to give us our supply for free and Scottish Power, the same. What's that about the leaky roof? Oh the Vicar's wages? S/he can do it for free too--- after all s/he doesn't pay any bills does s/he... C'mon.... if you think that the church is really all about money, then you must be living on another planet to the rest of us! My point is that the church is a business as much as anything else, so in many ways the same rules apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Bennett Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 ... but a business employs staff in order to make profits and therefore cannot be expected to tolerate behaviour that will damage those profits. If you are employed by a business you know that this is how it is and therefore what to expect. But I would not want to hold it up as a good role model for the church. The profit aspect is neither here nor there. Whatever sort of organisation you are running, you cannot be expected to tolerate behaviour that damages it. I have been involved in the management of a heritage railway for many years. It does not attempt to make a profit and most of its staff are unpaid volunteers. Yet I can recall an incident in which an injudicious remark made on camera in a "fly on the wall" TV programme resulted in a volunteer being expelled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
contrabordun Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 The big difference - and I'm involved in running a volunteer-staffed organisation also, a theatre in this case - is (IMO) that whereas, when you, as a management, are paying people (and I mean a proper hourly rate, not an honorarium that might cover the travel expenses), then in the last analysis, you have the right to require that they not say, or do, x or y, regardless of whether x or y are beneficial or damaging to the organisation, or even merely inconvenient or embarassing to the management thereof. However, if people are contributing of their time voluntarily, then (again IMO) they are entitled to say or do exactly as they like up to the point where they are damaging the organisation (as opposed to embarassing its management, which is a completely different thing, although there is a temptation for a management to regard the two as one). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil T Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 In business, slagging off your employer in public is usually considered to be gross misconduct, and anybody doing so would normally be subject to summary dismissal. There have been a number of such cases in the news recently. Anyway, how would you feel about your vicar making critical and offensive comments about you on his blog? To be honest with you, it just wouldn’t bother me at all. We’re all entitled to our own opinion. As long as what was said wasn’t fabricated, then I don’t see a problem. As to what’s offensive, well that’s down to the individual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Bennett Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 To be honest with you, it just wouldn’t bother me at all. We’re all entitled to our own opinion. As long as what was said wasn’t fabricated, then I don’t see a problem. As to what’s offensive, well that’s down to the individual. Well I still think people who work together should have more respect for one another and for the institution they work for than to go around slagging it and each other off in public. Yes, we are entitled to our opinions, but we have to put up with the consequences of voicing them. That's why we learn to keep our mouths shut at an early age. We seem to forget all about that when we sit at our computers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redeye Posted December 31, 2006 Share Posted December 31, 2006 Well I still think people who work together should have more respect for one another and for the institution they work for than to go around slagging it and each other off in public. Yes, we are entitled to our opinions, but we have to put up with the consequences of voicing them. That's why we learn to keep our mouths shut at an early age. We seem to forget all about that when we sit at our computers. Respect for each other ... Yes of course, but respect for "the institution"? Oh dear. Would I be correct in assuming you dont find Monty Pythons "Life of Brian" funny? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Fairhurst Posted December 31, 2006 Share Posted December 31, 2006 "If the church organist posts a critical and offensive comment about the family service and the vicar on a blog for organists, what action should a PCC member take in support of the Vicar?!I had a pretty sharp intake of breath when I first read that, not least because the Church Times letter was signed by a "J.G.M", and my predecessor as organist here (who still lives in the parish) has exactly those initials. Fortunately a. I'm pretty sure I've never posted along those lines and b. anyway, our vicar (who I like a lot) dislikes the family service as much as I do. As a serious answer, though, shouldn't the "offended party" talk to the organist first before telling tales out of school? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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