James Atherton
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Posts posted by James Atherton
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On 20/12/2023 at 20:32, Jonathan said:
James: an interesting specification, especially given (a) the space constraints with only use of the area on and within the screen, and (b) the current state of the finances of many English cathedrals. I have two questions please. Firstly, may we assume that console will remain in the same place as the 1971 console on the south side? Secondly, can you please add some detail about the Aliquot VII rank mixture on the Pedal? What will be its composition? Will the pipes all be borrowed from numbers 3 and 5 and their extensions upwards or are you making some new pipes specifically for this stop, and if so, how may pipes? Thank you. Good luck and i look forward to hearing it in 2026.
Hi Jonathan. Thank you for your kind remarks and your interest in the new organ.
Re the Aliquot, this is a compound stop, invented by John Compton. He called them various things Harmonics 32' Bass Corner 32' and I think also Harmonics of 32' There might be others...
Originally ours was going to be called Aliquot 32' However the layout of the console dictates that the Pedal flues will be on one jamb, and the reeds on another. A 32' stop at the top of the flues looked odd, so we decided on Aliquot VII.
The composition is such that if one plays bottom C on the pedal the following notes play
C @ 16'
G @ 10 2/3'
C @ 8'
E @ 6 2/3'
G @ 5 1/3'
A# @ 4 1/7'
D @ 3 8/9'
At the moment I am not sure of the derivations. We will experiment once we have the rest of the organ in the building to see what works best.
The console remains in the organ loft, more details of that to be revealed in good time.....
Hope that is useful?
James
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On 19/12/2023 at 12:19, Martin Cooke said:
I have nothing very much to add about this other than to say that I think it's a very interesting scheme indeed. Like any organ, it will always sound best at the hands of those who play it daily, but I suspect that many will declare it a masterpiece once complete and settled. Of course there are some who will bemoan the adoption of such a degree of borrowing and extension, but this is a real 'horses for courses' design to suit a very particular situation. And let's face it, borrowing and extension was the name of the game in all those Compton instruments which are often spoken of in hushed and respectful terms. It seems to me to be hugely flexible. I think I would have wished for there to be a soft 32ft reed rather than a loud one - but what do I know? I am thinking of the chancel organ at St Paul's and the gain made by returning the Contra Posaune 32 from the dome to the chancel in the 72/77 rebuild. (There seems these days, at some cathedrals, to be a tendency - (an expectancy, really) - for there to be loud 32ft reed tone on the last note of every hymn.) It would make splendid icing on the cake at Truro.
Thank you, Martin.
The Pedal Aliquot is in fact a compound stop, and gives the effect of a soft 32' reed when drawn with fairly full registrations. We have used this trick at Radley and the effect is incredible. It is inspired by Compton's Bass Cornets or Harmonics of 32' (he used several different names) So that meant the Bombardon can really 'roar' in the bass! Hope that's helpful?
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7 hours ago, Hebridean said:
This thread has been quite a challenge recently - I had a certain set of reactions when I first read the proposed specification, and then these feelings were followed by confusion and doubt as questions were raised (and I understand why) about the proposal's authenticity. Now, the veracity of the proposals has been established and members are starting to ask technical questions, on James Atherton's invitation. Quite a journey, to use that cliché.
However, it does mean that I can go back to my original reaction and feeling when I read the specification, and considered the rationale which Nicholson's have helpfully provided. That is, I think it is a truly imaginative and forward-thinking design that seems to me to take UK organ building in a very stimulating direction. There is so much from the past - the design of the Chaire organ, the use of the polyphone, the inspiration from Cavaillé-Coll, to take just some obvious examples. But these ideas and practices from the past are being brought together in a new combination, together with modern ideas and skills, in a unique situation and to address specific requirements and challenges. The design shows a willingness to embrace and combine good ideas even if they may not be, or have been, regarded in some quarters as technically 'correct'. I think this is genuinely innovative and, whilst I obviously 'get' the fact that we need to hear what the organ sounds like in a couple of years' time, I think at this stage, the builders, the cathedral musicians and the cathedral's wider community should be applauded for their vision and imagination. Bravo.
Wow! Thank you SO much for this. When someone 'gets' what it is we have designed, it is an extremely humbling experience. You have absolutely understood how I have come to this design, and this makes me very happy.
It isn't the 'norm' We don't do that at N&Co. Every new organ we build is different from the last, as every building and set of requirements differ. Why would we try to build something our forefathers have done? We can't! It would be a pastiche.
We build what we believe is the optimum solution for each client. We will not shift from this ethos under my watch.
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7 hours ago, contraviolone said:
Thanks for that. I always thought even a modest independent flue chorus on the Pedal was a good idea? I'm not sure why a cathedral organ wouldn't need it? I suppose I must be a child of the 50s and 60s Organ Reform Movement. I will be very interested to hear the results, especially those 32' extensions. It just shouts out John Compton, which is no bad thing. I've always admired the Compton consoles as well. You should really go visit Downside Abbey!
thank you SO much for this. Come and hear it in the flesh. I will be very happy to show anyone who has a genuine interest in it, once it is built. You all know where you can find me.....
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12 hours ago, swalmsley said:
My question is as follows:
It would seem to be something of a scaling and voicing challenge for the four significant reeds:
Bombarde
Posaune
Trompette
Tuba
which are each available at at least three pitches and - mostly - across multiple divisions.
No doubt the generous acoustic is going to help "smooth the edges", but ultimately each rank is going to be optimised for one particular pitch in either manual or pedal.
So James' ideas for how this challenge is going to be met would be interesting....
that is a really interesting question, thank you.
If one reads the specification in the way that I have designed it, one can see a story that links the lineage from Dallam/Harris of the C17th to N&Co in the C21st.
I have researched each incarnation of the organ, and have picked up a thread that leads us to our 2026 instrument. The Chaire is clearly Dallam/Harris. The Great is inspired by our finest Victorian organ builders, not least of all John Nicholson (whose scalings and voicing style are the inspiration for this division) The Pedal makes the best use of the limited space we have, in the way Arthur Harrison did. The Swell is designed to provide the best and most colourful tonal spectrum possible, inspired by Cavaillé-Coll (whose pipes we have hear in Malvern to study) and the Nave division is pure N&Co. The reeds will offer fiery brilliance in the Swell, Victorian elegance and brass on the Great and an all-out brass band for the Bombarde unit.
The Tuba Mirabilis will be voiced on 18" wp and is to our new house-style. Brilliant and arresting, without any of the podgy tone other Tubas can display.
Is that helpful?
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16 hours ago, contraviolone said:
Quite honestly i don't know what to make of it. I've always been a firm believer in an independent Pedal organ as much as possible (space permitting of course), but the derivations and borrowings on this one defy belief. I'm not keen on reed chorus extensions either. I would imagine Ralph Downes will be spinning in his grave at least 24,000 rpm, which is about as much as a modern powerful turbo on a Ferrari. Seriously though, have we come full circle? Is this the reincarnation of John Compton and Robert Hope Jones?
you've hit the nail on the head with the word 'space'. Had we had more space in that ancient and tiny organ case the specification would have reflected that. As it is we have had to think hard about how we provide a flexible instrument for accompanying the liturgy, with all the appropriate gentle colour that was lacking in its predecessor, whilst still having a thrilling recital instrument. Extension has been used in the colouring stops, whilst keeping the integrity of the principal choruses. A 16' based Nave division, 8' based Great, Swell and Chaire.
An independent pedal is not necessary for a cathedral organ, however the Nave on Pedal transfer will provide independence for the pedal line when required, as the Nave Grand Chorus is based on the 16' rather than 8'
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Just now, James Atherton said:
Nothing spoof about this. My comment on the other thread was meant to make people laugh. Having designed the specification of the organ that is to be built, I am at somewhat of an advantage, wouldn't you say.....
Or even an unfair advantage
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17 hours ago, Rowland Wateridge said:
This, surely, is a spoof in spite of appearing on Nicholson’s website? It’s signed off by James Atherton in the same month as he asked whether he might put up a suggested specification on the ‘other’ thread “Gloucester Armchair Game”.
Nothing spoof about this. My comment on the other thread was meant to make people laugh. Having designed the specification of the organ that is to be built, I am at somewhat of an advantage, wouldn't you say.....
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15 hours ago, sjf1967 said:
No, I'm not joking in any shape or form, it's the real scheme - the firm is hardly likely to publish a comedy version on its own website. I'm going to wait until I've heard/played it before deciding what I think. Only 3 years to wait, it'll fly past.
Thank you, we are all really excited for this project!
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10 hours ago, pwhodges said:
Publishing the spec is a change of the stated intent, though. Back in April, James wrote (in this post) : "We have decided that it would be preferable for the organ to be heard before any details of the specification is revealed".
Paul
On reflection, we decided that enough time had passed since the demise of the 1971 instrument, and that for fund raising purposes it would be helpful for people to know what they are contributing towards.
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43 minutes ago, John Furse said:
"In the 1971 instrument the soundboards were reconfigured so that the organ spoke clearly to the east and west. This effective idea will be perpetuated with a Nave division speaking west."
The Nave division will be approximately where the previous West Great was.
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10 minutes ago, S_L said:
I, so, wish they hadn't published the proposals!! It would save so much speculation by well intentioned amateur, 'back of fag packet' organ designers.
I do understand the reasons behind publishing but I fear that this thread will go on and on until it has been thrashed to death!!!
Why can't people just wait until the scheme is realised?
I get that some people can't understand the scheme, or have ideas of how they would do things differently. That's all part of our funny little world. I am open to all questions and will chat to anyone about this scheme.
At the moment it is a list of stop names. How it sounds and how it plays is what actually matters.
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16 hours ago, Rowland Wateridge said:
Has anyone actually analysed the ‘composition’ of the pedal organ? I’m unsure whether sjf1967 is also pulling our legs!
It’s now for James Atherton to ‘come clean’.
Ask me any questions you like, I'll answer them.
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Am I allowed to play.......
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On 03/07/2023 at 20:26, WJ Swindells said:
In a post in 2020, about the York Minster rebuild, I wondered if Gloucester Cathedral might have it's Ralph Downes reimagining reversed. And indeed it is! I loved the 1970's instrument for all the reasons I guess that its fans liked it - that it sounded unique and unlike pretty much any UK cathedral instrument. Perhaps Blackburn comes close and I remember preparing for a visiting choir service on the organ at Gloucester in a darkish building and trying out for myself such combinations such as "tutti fluty" and the mutations - and coaxing the noises I had heard when played by David Briggs. I will treasure his and Rob Houssart's recordings made on it, especially when David improvised a stunning uber romantic improvisation on the hymn tune "Hereford" at a Gloucestershire Organists Association event - happily also recorded. But as James Atherton says, for the every day choral evensong, Ralph Downes was clearly not that enthused about the need to accompany Anglican chant, Stanford, Bairstow, Stainer, Walmisley and those sort, and probably in 1970, wasn't the opinion of some in the musical world that those people would soon be off the music lists of cathedrals with worthy repertoire being seen by some as Renaissance composers and then up to Purcell, and then jump to the post romantic composers? Britten, Berkeley, Jackson, Walton and today's composers music probably worked better on the 1970's model. But now, cathedrals are becoming the only show in town for great liturgy and music, with great congregations coming in who want to sing and be led by a good healthy organ weight behind them. And this the 1970's organ really didn't enjoy doing. I was lucky for my service that the mass setting was a Viennese one so all the little sparkles worked fine. But if you looked at the 1970's spec, and you were faced with music from 1850-1930 on the music desk, as James says, you really didn't have a lot to choose from. I am sure though that Nicholson's will build something that has colour, perkiness but also grandeur and gravitas.
A final anecdote was that I attended an evensong once at Gloucester in the 2000's and the organ sounded like a traditional cathedral organ somehow - at the end who should descend the stairs but Roy Massey.....
This is a superb synopsis of all that was good and not so good about the old Gloucester organ. I, for one, appreciate your considered thoughts on the organ and can guarantee that the new one will be able to do much of what the old one could, but everything it couldn't.
Best wishes
James
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On 12/05/2023 at 13:00, contraviolone said:
Very interesting information. I do enjoy the occasional video you make for YouTube. Glad you are retaining the Bishop stop. I'm sure the finished results will be very interesting, I'll be there to listen when all is done!
Talking of videos, very much enjoyed your latest video from Radley College. Impressive tuba, bright and powerful:
Thank you for your kind words. We are pleased with how Radley turned out, it certainly does the job or supporting the lusty singing of the boys there (and goodness me do they sing!!!) The uptake of new organ students has been heartening. The Tuba is a new design of ours, and is certainly arresting in the chapel!!
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12 minutes ago, James Atherton said:
There is no 'headline grabbing'
The specification for the new instrument was drawn up by me, as a matter of fact. It was approved by the Cathedral musicians and the Dean and Chapter with one additional stop they requested. This is the basis of the contract that was signed last year. The pipework was not suitable for reuse in the new instrument with the exception of 2 basses. It was almost all made by Stinkens and was not the finest quality. The pipe bodies and the languids were very thin. They were made with the specific needs of open toe voicing, and scaled by Ralph Downes. The scalings were bizarre to say the least.
There is no consultant at Gloucester, it was not felt necessary as the Dean and Chapter and cathedral musicians and ourselves were 'on the same page' from day one. They trust us to build the organ they want. This was also true for our brand new instruments at Llandaff and Auckland Cathedral's respectively.
I don't recall any discussion of Charterhouse on this site. Charterhouse will be the next brand new organ out of our factory after Gloucester Cathedral (the specification was also drawn up by me in consultation with Mark Shepherd, for your information) Another brand new Cathedral organ for Christchurch Cathedral follows hot on the heels of that one (where I also drew up the specification)
Christchurch Cathedral NZ, to clarify.
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On 30/04/2023 at 13:41, S_L said:
A very wise policy, in my opinion! The armchair, back-of-fag-packet amateurs are straining at the leash to see it on paper and then to be able to comment on the lack of this or the reason for that!
Precisely! Come and hear it, rather than damn it before it has even been built. (I started the voicing the new organ this week, a stop for the Swell for those who might be interested....)
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On 30/04/2023 at 20:02, contraviolone said:
Yep I agree. Space has always been a problem with the organ at Gloucester, so if I had any input to the scheme I would:
1) Reinstate the 32' flue bottom octave in the triforium.
2) Make the space and depth considerably bigger in the Quire screen as they have done with King's College Cambridge, where by digging down forming a pit they've housed the bottom notes of the 32' reed, the bottom notes of the 32' Double Open Wood, the bottom six notes of the 16' Double Open Diapason, the Solo box including the Great reeds and a few other bits and pieces. At Gloucester you could dig down even further and go for a 64' reed. Just imagine that!
3) Increase the depth of the organ case to allow lots more pipe work.
Honestly anything is possible if you have the will and the dosh. Problem is, how would you guess the spec with all this subterranean pipework hidden away? There you go, that's my little scribble on the back of the fag packet for the day.
There is no room for scheme like this. The new organ will be exactly where the old one was. The beauty and historic case along with its gloriously decorated case pipes will be meticulously restored. The Bishop Open Wood will remain in the 'pedal pit' where it has been since 1971. As for a 64' Reed.... That did make me chuckle. I think you might keep your fag packet 🙂
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On 30/04/2023 at 09:49, Philip J Wells said:
Thank you James Atherton for the full answer to my question. I look forward to hearing the result in due course.
Thank you. I look forward to seeing you at the Cathedral when you do.
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On 01/05/2023 at 14:49, swalmsley said:
Downes makes several remarks about the 32' Open Wood in Chapter 11 of Baroque Tricks. I'll summarise, rather than quote directly.
His dislike of it seems to be motivated by
a) It being distant from the organ and relying on the acoustic to create an illusion.
b) Father Willis having previously judged its provision to be unsuitable.
He then goes on to say that it was "unceremoniously discarded for the irrelevancy that it was".
His says later that the fullness of the giant scaled Bishop 16' Open Wood (called "Flute") completely compensated for the lack of a 32' register.
And his final remark on the topic is where he expresses an opinion of the general superiority of the (then) new instrument, as a result of several factors including the lack of "booming 32-feet" of the previous rebuild
In my personal opinion, whilst the Flute 16' did not completely compensate for the lack of a 32' stop, it got very close indeed. It's one stop of several whose loss in 2023 is, I think, unfortunate.
The Bishop Open Wood will remain.
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On 02/05/2023 at 22:30, OwenTurner said:
I can see that there's a real danger of "shooting the messenger" here, where the builder is quoting to a client's instruction. There was a similarly heated discussion of Charterhouse in this forum not long ago. I haven't seen mention of a consultant for the Gloucester work. I wonder who has created the new scheme. It's unlikely to be just Nicholsons acting alone.
There must have been a lot of good quality pipework in the HNB instrument which could have been re-used elsewhere. I wonder whether the overly enthusiastic "melting down" comment is really true or headline grabbing, a bit like edgy comedian Joe Lycett's recent "shredding" of £10k.
There is no 'headline grabbing'
The specification for the new instrument was drawn up by me, as a matter of fact. It was approved by the Cathedral musicians and the Dean and Chapter with one additional stop they requested. This is the basis of the contract that was signed last year. The pipework was not suitable for reuse in the new instrument with the exception of 2 basses. It was almost all made by Stinkens and was not the finest quality. The pipe bodies and the languids were very thin. They were made with the specific needs of open toe voicing, and scaled by Ralph Downes. The scalings were bizarre to say the least.
There is no consultant at Gloucester, it was not felt necessary as the Dean and Chapter and cathedral musicians and ourselves were 'on the same page' from day one. They trust us to build the organ they want. This was also true for our brand new instruments at Llandaff and Auckland Cathedral's respectively.
I don't recall any discussion of Charterhouse on this site. Charterhouse will be the next brand new organ out of our factory after Gloucester Cathedral (the specification was also drawn up by me in consultation with Mark Shepherd, for your information) Another brand new Cathedral organ for Christchurch Cathedral follows hot on the heels of that one (where I also drew up the specification)
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On 03/05/2023 at 07:25, Martin Cooke said:
Just to say, I am pretty certain there was no heated discussion in THIS forum re the proposition of a new instrument in Charterhouse School chapel- that was all on the FB site. Meanwhile, Paul Hale lists Gloucester Cathedral as a 'current project' on the consultant tab of his website.
Paul Hale is not the consultant at Gloucester.
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On 30/04/2023 at 22:59, John Robinson said:
I have never been particularly keen on Ralph Downes, but this is something I was unaware of and find disgusting.
What would he achieve by destroying them? They could be used elsewhere, or perhaps retained in safe-keeping in case future ideas might suggest their restoration.
Actually, the latter possibility is probably the reason for his selfish act.I think it was out of peevishness. Such wanton waste. The cost of they were to be replaced is eye-watering
Gloucester Cathedral
in General discussion
Posted
Thank you, Paul.
What lovely comments, and so heartening when someone really understands the concept.
I completely take your point about the Solo Oct to Pedal when the Pedal Divide is drawn. I hadn't thought about that. It will come down to space on the jambs, but worth a convo with J-Ho to see what he thinks.....
The Voix Humaine is on the Swell soundboard rather than on a chest, so this wasn't possible on the Solo. However it is possible on the Swell, but of course the Flute mutations are tied up there....
The Clarinette will be purposely 'woody' and not really a substitute for a Cromhorne. It might be that the Hautbois and Clarinette together on the Solo fulfills that purpose.... Until we get it in there we won't know. It will be up to those that play it (and I look forward to hearing you take her out for a spin) to see how they can make repertoire work.
That's 90% of the fun of meeting an organ for the first time. As long as the music stands up, it doesn't matter that much what your draw. The tired old 'you can't play Bach without two choruses, or Couperin without this or that' is mostly now behind us (in most quarters)
This new organ, as you rightly see, is designed with liturgical requirements at the fore, but not a little thought has gone into the playing of the wider organ literature.
Time will tell how it turns out, but it hasn't been designed with any fads or fashions, so with luck it will see us all out, and many subsequent custodians of the instrument.
ATB
J