willy
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Posts posted by willy
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Was this an artifact of microphone placement, or does it really sound like that in the hall?
This was no trick! Unfortunately TV and radio presentations tend to artificially "down" the organ in balancing the sound - so you don't usually get it loud and clear. Live in the hall the organ knocks you off your feet! It is something else. I am hoping for a significant contribution in the RVW Sea Symphony tonight and Gerontious tomorrow!!
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On pp 14 of Mr Barnwell's lovely little booklet, there is a pic of the Willis men working on the 1929 rebuild of the Ally-Pally organ.
Leaning against the case are what look like large, laminated sheets , whose diapering matches that of the pipes. What are these sheets? Is it some sort of pattern transfer ??
Also I have never seen a colour photo of the old organ before it was painted gunmetal grey - does anybody remember what the colour scheme was?
It would be good to find out.
thanks
Bill
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Is htat any way to talk about the RAH organ? but i do know what you mean! It is very brassy.
Touche! I stand abashed. Humour alive, well and brassily crackling i'm glad to say.
B
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we are still a free country!!! I think.....
...............we could debate that one for years dear. We do seem to have lost our sense of humour though - never heard so much starch crackling since prep school (300 years ago)..
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I don't think I will be trying to keep up with the Joneses on this one.
Jeremy is very much entitled to his opinion of course (and I am no judge to make a credible comment) . Dame Gill is a National (almost Imperial) Treasure of course, and criticism is practically treason so Jeremy you are probably a marked man by now and MI6 will have you on their radar.
We have though, in this country, a vast amount of talent amongst our domestic organists, not to mention more exotic specimens like Messrs Curley and Latry, all of whom would entrance current and future organ affecionados with a variety of music for with the RAH could do stunning service. It is therefore sad (and I agree with Mark), that the first and only real organ music concert is 50% of what we have already heard on the CD (stunning (fawn fawn fawn and more unashamed fawning) though it is).
I suspect the problem for tha RAH, is finding dates when the hall is either not being sued for an event, or being transformed for one. This probably makes my next point somewhat redundant (but here goes anyway) .
I am not one of those for whom anything other than Bach, Rheinberger or Buxtehude is anathema. I like and enjoy noisy town hall transcriptions. I like to hear the organ engaged in a vulgar battle with an orchestra, as well as hearing in more subtly interwoven with one.
If the RAH are planning programmes for orchestra with the organ in dramatic mode, , why not consider Bax's Christmas Eve, or Vaughan Williams' Sinfonia Antarctica (for the Proms next year???) . Why not think about a Lunchtime Town Hall thing, with orchestral transcriptions (or lure in kids with Cinema themes like Starwars or whatever). Let EVERYBODY who wants to enjoy the organ enjoy it in the way that THEY want to, without anybody getting sniffy about it.
I suspect that there isn't the time on the schedule (or is the will and confidence to find the time?).
I am looking forward to the concert on 26th. The CD cannot compare with the organ live - so if you have not heard it live - even if you hate the music on the programme - go anyway - it will be electrifying, even with Dame Gillian's lumpy registrations (Jeremy - you've got a crack in your CD I think, love).
Jeremy maybe a bit cummodgeonly, but he has in my humble (joking) opinion got a very good point.
love and peace (at least on the Discussion Board).
Bill
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Even drowning out the orchestra twice in one concert is two times too many. Surely this is the fault of the conductor who must be prepared to advise the organist on whether the balance with the orchestra is correct.
No.........I agree with Alan - a good drowining (or drubbing) is good for orchestras now and then! Most of the time when I have heard Elgar/Walton etc the organ bit is either missing entirely or just not audible. I think conductors often don't like organs: Makes 'em feel inferior. " SMALL diapasons only" they will wail if some wretched organist goes above mp " and definitely absolutely NO full swell" they will cry.
Nice now and then to show 'em who'se boss.
Seriously, isn't the answer to provide fantastic concerts like Saturday's - when all and sundry can fall under the bewitching spell of the dragon slaying St George for a change - PLUS a decent programme for people who like organ MUSIC!!
After all - who decides what's artistic and what's not?
I am with those who like noise and clangour......but then again - I also value and appreciate organ music played as the composer intended. Isn't that the whole point? This glorious and fantastic organ was built to suit ALL tastes. Let it do its JOB!!!!!
Bill
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I know I was not impressed by the programme put together for last night's gala concert, but by the time I left the RAH at 10pm the rancour was forgotten, and a thoroughly good night was had by all judging from the comments i heard as we poured out onto Prince Consort Road. You certainly heard the organ, too much at times it may be said! From the moment the first rumble was heard from the 32' Contra Violone in the opening of "Also Sprach Zarathustra", the the nerve shattering final cord of the piece, i knew we were in for a good night. No holds barred - the organ (played by the lovely Mr Disley) simply swept the orchestra away, and hard as they might sayw and blow on their instruments, nothing could be heard but the mighty Willis/Harrison/Mander alalgam that is now our organ.
The Saint Saens quiet movement had some really lovely moments - especially near the end when the Orchestral strings and the pedal 32's blended beautifually with the orchestra ( some of these 32 notes really make the place shake!!).
It would have been nice for the finale, if there had been more of a build-up - say start with the Orchestral trumpets coupled to the great instead of going flat out with the trombas from the very beginning. Even so - theres seemed to be a bit more added all the time until the shattering final chords.
The organ entries into the Walton & Elgar bits was everything it should be and then went onto being a helluva lot more, again drowing the poor old orchestra completely (although in Steven Disley's hands for Cockaigne it was just right, whereas the dear Doctor just couldn't help himself as he snatched out for his tubas with gay abandon, and sat smugly with his arms folded with bottom D and everything going like the clappers for the end of Land Hope & Glory - brilliant!!).
The Mascagni Intermezzo was lovely - more than enough organ, but never too much. It was disappointing to have the Widor, one of only 2 genuine organ solo works, joined by the orchestra - the sound was a bit muddy, and again Steven Disley was more generous in not completely anahilating the orchestra - at least until the very end.
Ok - so it wasn't a proper organ reciltal, and the organ was unashamedly given rather more to say for itself in some of the works than it normally would have been allowed, but it was fun, people came (three-quarters full?) and obviously enjoyed it.
NOW - ROYAL ALBERT HALL AUTHORITIES - THIS IS OUR ORGAN AND WE WANT TO HEAR IT A LOT MORE OFTEN, PLAYING THE GLORIOUS REPERTOIRE OF PROPER ORGAN MUSIC THAT THIS WONDERFUL ORGAN WAS CREATED FOR.
A year on from the re-opening of the organ - and it sounds even better than it did then. If you haven't been and heard it live - GO!! No amount of listening to CD's radio broadcasts or TV concerts can prepare you for the real thing. I sat in the Circle, front row block V, about 5 o'clock from the organ - so by no means on top of it, and the sound absolutely knocked you flat!!! It is well worth the trouble - even if you live on the moon!
Bill :
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This brings back memories.
It is nice to hear from someone who actually remembers the organ in situ. What did it actually sound like then? Can you recall any other "events" in which the organ featured - or better still know of any recordings? I would love to know a bit more about its history. I can imagine in a big hall - wth adequate amplification and speakers it may have been reasonably effective for its time - although I am sure for pipe supporters in the day, it would have seemed like the thin end of the wedge!! Best regards Bill
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Hi John
I found a little article on the web about the Bham townn hall organ console being removed from the hall to Bethnal Green, and accompanying this were a couple of pictures, and whilst they didn't show the whole console, what bit they did show suggested some damage to the keys. It also looked (and it could just have been the way the photo was taken) that the 5th manual was missing. Was it removed and what was the state of the console when you got it back to the works? When do you envisage it being returned to B'ham?
I notice that you are going to have another go at the old Willis reeds on the bombarde. If you make as good a job of them as you did with the Harrison trombas at the RAH they should really be something!!
kind regards
Bill
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T
Thanks Tony - if ever you want a pit stop en route to the coast, I am about a mile from J3 on M3 (dead easy to find). I Compton site you refer to is an excellent one. I did send the guy there all the details some tome ago.
Kind regards
Bill
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Whilst not wishing to sully this discussion board with such impure a subject as electronics...........but..............somebody out there may be interested in the 3 manual compton "Electrone" I have at home. Built in 1952, it was originally installed in the Free Trade Hall in Manchester, and was sister to the organ originally put into the Royal Festival Hall before the Harrison instrument was ready.
I bought it off a chap who had rescued it in the early 70's, and who made a wonderful job of restoring it, scaling down its enormous output for domestic use, and rebuilt the console in a more elegant style than the original. It has 100 speaking stops (slightly more than originally, i have converted some of the accessory stops into speaking stops) spread over 3 manuals and pedals. The source of the sound is 2 sets of revolving generators, one running at normal speed, and 1 at double speed. This generates 6 "ranks" of differing tone/colour running from 32 ft to half-foot pitch (some are restricted), with all the appropriate mutations, and to create a particular stop you simply mix the tones together at appropriate pitch lengths to get the right harmonics. Each pitch can be set at 21 different dynamic levels so every single stop is individually voices - no duplication, duplexing, extension - everything completely straight. There are off pitch ranks for celestes, and other to add a bit of freshness (otherwise it would be too dead in tune). The specification is English concert hall - with 5 32-foots on the pedal!
The synoptic specification is:
CH: 16 16 8 8 8 8 8 8 4 4 4 4 22/3 2 11/3 1 IV 16 8 8 8 8 8 8 Trem (all encl)
GT: 16 16 16 8 8 8 8 8 51/3 4 4 4 22/3 2 2 V IV 16 8 8 4
SW: 16 8 8 8 8 8 8 4 4 4 2 13/5 11/3 1 III IV V 16 16 8 8 8 8 4 Trem (all encl)
PD: 32 32 32 16 16 16 16 16 16 8 8 8 8 8 51/3 4 IV IX 32 32 16 16 16 16 16 8 8 4
6 pistons to each manual, 6 toe pistons to Ped, 6 toe pistons to Sw (all double touch acting on pedal and adjustable at a setter board inside the console). There is also a general crescendo pedal.
It has 3 big (really BIG) banks of speakers which are hidden behind a pipe facade along with the cabinet containing the generators and the hundreds of relays for the top and key action.
It is pretty well all in working order (fixes are generally not difficult). the slight problem is that the generators should ideally be in another room (because of the noise), but this just isn't possible.
How does it sound? Well, some of the stops - especially the quieter flutes, strings and reeds are really quite beautiful and not bad at all for 1952 technology. The great diapasons are quite virile (2 separate choruses 16 to mixtures), and full swell is really pretty good. The great chorus reeds (a trio of trombas and a posaune) colour rather than overpower, whereas the swell reeds ar more fiery/snarly and come through full great really well. I have made a French Horn for the choir (a bit too loud but not bad), and a Tuba - which is OK.
The normal speed generator drives the great and most of the pedal, while the double speed ones drive swell, choir and the secondary pedal . With the 2 sets coupled together - because they are never 100% in tune, the sound is really "lively", and quite convincing. Full organ is thunderous - the 32 flues really coming though without having to have the reeds (dble sackbut 32 and contra trombone 32).
I am not a skilled organist (can bash through a service in an emergency - and christmas carols (Wilcocks arrangements of course) with 100 people singing their heads off is quite a thrill).
If anyone is near Jcn 3 of the M3 and wants to have a go I would be happy to hear somebody who can play better than me put the old girl through her paces.
Also anyone who is familiar with the technology and willing to give some advice now and then would also be very welcome.
Bill
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Hey-ho ! They probably need a year or two to get themselves organised bless 'em! Needs a few of us Brummies to get things going (won't be too long till Birmingham has TWO famous organs back in full working nick!!!). It is a worry though - with so little on offer you can't help wondering about the cost of the refurbishment and whether it was worth it (well of course it was - you only have to hear the thing to be blown away). Whatever people say about Alexandra palace - they are TRYING to have the organ (or the bit that is playable) heard in very trying circumstances. Come on RAH - what does it take - do we have to petition Raymond Gubbay (seems like he owns the palce these days)? Help us out we've been waiting so patiently.....for sooooooo looooong.............
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I totally agree! The Organ Spectacular at the RAH next month is a re-hash of what was done last year, and there is nothing in the Proms this year to quicken the pulse, certainly nothing like the glory days of Simon Preston rattling the RAH's windows in the Reubke Organ Sonata, for example. One does begin to ask, in the face of such total lack of comittment on the hall's authorities, what was the point in restoring the organ? You only have to look at the series of organ concerts at the Festival Hall and Birmingham's Symphony Hall to see that an imaginatively put together series, well marketed, can draw big audiences.
Jeremy Jones
London
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I too am blown away by the Gillian Wier recording on the RAH organ. Whilst I have always loved it, the organ was rarely played (or perhaps in a condition to be played) in a way that really demonstrated its vast resources. This CD is unashamedly aiming to fill that gap - i heard Dame Gillian on Classic (I think) talking about it. The way she delivers a really gradual buildup is quite fantastic - especially the St Paul on the Waves job. And you really get to hear some of the speciality stops. The French Horns come out in Ad Nos, while the blazing Orchestral Trumpets get an airing in St Paul and Nimrod. It would have been nice to have in the commentary a bit pointing out some of the stops used on the CD. I love Paul Hale's article - but of course I have read it in other mags till the print has faded - so a bit of a waste of space for me I s'pose. The Gala Concert on 4th June is a bit disappointing. It seems like a carbon copy of one of last year's airings. Why when we have such a wonderful organ repertoire which this organ can deliver on, can we not have something a bit more - well - interesting? I can't see a huge amount going on at the proms this year either - tho I shall be there for Sea Symphony & Gerontius and hope the organ ads some thunder (no timid organists please). Come on Royal Albert Hall - let's have something like the RFH has done over the last couple of years - always well attended - and whether you like the organ or not - it was always a good night out (I like the bar at the RFH too!!).
Prom Concert 21/7/05
in General discussion
Posted
[. Was this an artifact of microphone placement, or does it really sound like that in the hall?
I saw the BBC4 production of RVW's Sea Symphony, and as predicted the organ was not very evident (on the broad cast at least).
I was at last night's Gerontius, sitting at the top of the Circle, about as high as you can get, at about 2o'clock from the organ. Darius Battiwala played the organ, and was pretty restrained for all of the piece - but nonetheless I could hear the diapasons ringing quite clearly above the chorus and orchestra in Part 1. In Part 2 - especially Geronius' "It floods me, like the deep and solemn sound" - you could here the full swell acidly biting through the rising and falling of the orchestra . In "Praise to the Holiest", again a restrained "full organ" sound which was undoubtedly well short of the organ's maximum output - but topped the rest of the ensemble without annahiliating it. In the fabulous "I go before my judge" with the paean-like crescendo, the pedal reeds blasted forth and with the big reeds deployed the final splinter like crack of the day of judgement was awsome and litterall made you start out of your seat! Fabulous!
However...........listening to it again on line this evening (apart from the last bit) the organ seemed very subdued. You really have to be there I guess. Broadcasts just don't do it.
I also listened to the "Bestiary" from the other night...ooo-er! Did anyone actually write that down!