Brian Childs
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Posts posted by Brian Childs
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It certainly was fine when I accompanied an evensong for a visiting choir there 30 years ago. As for the assertiveness of the bigger stop, it depends where you are. The choirmaster had put down Stanford in A, especially in order to savour its effect in the Nunc dimittis. We were all rather alarmed to discover that you could hardly hear it in the choirstalls. Since the smaller Tuba wasn't over-loud either, the only solution was to use both Tubas together! No doubt anyone standing west of the screen would have been flattened against the west door, but it only just passed muster in the choir. From what MM says, they've now rectified the situation with an east-facing reed. I'm not surprised.
Well, FJ did say it produced a remarkable effect on the WEST side of the screen and you would expect , as your experience seems to confirm, that such a stop would be far more directional than a conventionally disposed pipe. I bet it would set the rafters ringing if transported to one of those fairly modestly sized American churches that delight in having an organ twice the size that is actually needed , but in York the sound has to travel quite some way before hitting anything to reflect it back. The Bombarde was, according to John Scott Whiteley's notes to his Priory recording intended to provide a contrasting effect on the East side. He demonstrated it in his performance of the Guillou Toccata I believe but I am not leaving the warmth of the fire to go up to the record store (aka Study) to retrieve the CD and check this on a day like today. I am too busy fighting with the cat for possession of the chair by the fireside!!
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This photograph sums up the vulgarity of it all I think.
http://www.davidhegarty.com/images/photos/041107-Harrah2.jpg
-Well possibly but I would be quite interested to learn how the photographic effect was obtained assuming it was obtained at the stage of recording the image rather than as a result of using photoshop or some other image editing program. The console appears to me -and perhaps I need to upgrade my spectacles - to have conventional drawstops, but perhaps they look conventional but operate in a similar fashion to the Compton luminous touch type console which once graced Hull City Hall and is still to be found at Downside. Simply drawing conventional drawstops in that D H pattern would not lead to the effect seen in the photograph without the intervention of additional lighting but I am at a loss to explain how you could light to produce that effect. Perhaps it is just simply photoshop and the "eye dropper" ? Anyone actually know how it could have been done.
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York: I am fairly certain that the Tuba Mirabilis is not horizontal - but vertical. The pipes are, I believe, hooded. One of our choirmen was acting as a key-holder for Phil Burbeck years ago, when PB was doing some re-balancing for JWWW. Apparently, he noticed that all the slots on the C (or possibly the C# side) had been closed up, in order that the tuner could get past it without catching his sleeves. This is (apparently) why, on older recordings, there is a glorious irregularity to the timbre of this stop. Anyway, that is the story which I was told.
Whilst this is possible, (after all there are numerous popular misconceptions like the remark that Holmes never made to Watson, "Elementary my dear Watson), the foundation of my belief that they are horizontal is the following note on the sleeve of a record of 20th century British organ music made at York by FJ in 1964. The relevant part of the note reads:" The most notable addition of 1916 was the Tuba Mirabilis, on 25 inch wind pressure [NPOR gives this as now being 15 inches] which, though out of sight, is in a similar position to the chamade trumpets of Spain and has a remarkable impact on the west side of the organ." The note is signed by Francis Jackson.
I do not see how it would be possible simply to take pipes made to be mounted in this way and just raise them to a vertical elevation. Substantial remodelling would surely be required. And what would be the point ? Moreover, the stop was installed at the behest of Teddy Bair and was a favourite of his apparently(FJ's "Impromptu" written as a birthday present for EB contains a central passage specifically for this stop); therefore, it does not seem very likely that his loyal pupil would change it so fundamentally, and even less likely that he would do so without having the guts to admit to what he had done. This would mean that any such alteration would have to have taken place since FJ retired , but no account that I have read of the changes made in the 1990s makes any mention of such a change. The other tuba is , of course, vertical and is reputedly a fine stop in its own right if somewhat in the shadow of its more assertive companion. Perhaps it was that stop that was meant ?
Brian
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As far as tempo and technique is concerned, indeed not.
But it is highly revealing of how the piece should be articulated. Again, compare different editions: in the first edition, Widor indicates staccato throughout. In later editions, the first two notes of each group of eight are tied, but only for about two or three pages. Even among the better performers, most take this literally, i.e. reversing to a pure staccato after those two or three pages. Widor, on the other hand, accentuates each beat by tying the first two notes throughout the piece. The playing technique may not be top-notch, but the intention is clearly there.
At about 88 years of age it is hardly surprising his technique was not that of a young man. Did he not say himself that he was "nearer to God than the organ loft" or have I imagined that ? Still better than Mr Nobile I think and without the advantages of modern digital editing !
Brian Childs
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I was a student in Leeds fifteen years ago, and I don't remember that an awful lot of the G&D had survived the Wood rebuilding, but please correct me. I know the Hill at the Ulster Hall has a horizontal reed which is jolly enough, but I was hoping for some more recent successful examples on non-Klais/Marcussen etc-type instruments.
Well, I do not know about recent but we have Blackburn (Imperial Trumpet), St John's College, Cambridge (Trumpeta Real), Liverpool Metropolitan Cathedral (Orchestral Trumpet), and the new Bombarde at York (where the Tuba Mirabilis is also, of course, horizontal though I hardly think one would describe the timbre as very trumpet like, impressive though it is). According to some specifications attached to CDs that I have the new Orchestral Trumpet at Ripon is horizontal though what you see from the transept does not look very like a horizontal reed.
Then there is the main organ at the west end of Lancing College Chapel, and the Royal Trumpets in St Paul's perhaps ought not to be overlooked on this site.
BAC
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OK - this would certainly be good.
Does anyone happen to know if there is (or was) a recording of the instrument before the recent PPO restoration, please?
There was a cassette dating from 1987 (Priory PRC 227) of English Organ Music shared between Cartmel Priory and the Great Hall of the University of Lancaster played by Ian Hare, whom I had previously encountered at Beverley Minster when both of us were much younger. Last July he played at my daughter's graduation ceremony, at least for part of the time, but he must have been feeling the pressure of a week of such ceremonies for he was off the bench and packing up when the last of the academic procession were still leaving the hall, so the spectators all shuffled out in silence !!
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For a different perspective on this organ look at the photo to be found at this location .
http://www.herald-dispatch.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?
BAC
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Goodness me! Stop! Stop!
I thought this deserved some further investigation , since the surroundings in which the console was photographed did not seem to indicate a building that needed that large an instrument, but apparently it only has 456 stops! (Well stop knobs to be strictly truthful) Anyway here are a few stats to make some of you very jealous!!!
"Designed and built by Allen Harrah, a West Virginia native, the symphonic organ at Forrest Burdette is a six manual and pedal organ with 456 draw knobs positioned along the console's walls. With more than 2,600 pipes and more than 20,000 digital pipe notes, the pipes must be "tuned" a couple of times a year because the room temperature directly affects the tone of the pipes.
"You have to have a consistent temperature. They are delicate in that respect," Gatewood said.
And with 10,400 watts of audio power and 148 speaker systems, the organ music swells and rolls in a huge volume of sound that envelops the auditorium much like a movie theater."
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Yes, I was, but I was having a conscience attack about being rude about someone else's playing - probably because I'd just heard a recording of myself!
I'm cured now
I am glad to hear it but you did not need to feel guilty. I doubt anyone here is criticising Arty for his playing per se or even having it recorded or videoed, since these could both help him analyse what he is doing and how to do it better. It is not how he played but ratherwhat he wrote (or allowed to be written) about himself and published to the world generally that provoked my comments and , I believe, those of everybody else here as well. As far as I am aware you have neither published the recording of your playing nor advanced claims to having written a new page in the history of cultural development through your unique contribution not only to music but to art and literature as well. Being born in a stable does not make you a horse and you do not need to be able to lay an egg in order to tell a bad one.
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Seriously, I think you make a good point. It's not as though this board has closed membership, and there aren't many organ fora in existence. How long before Mr Nobile does actually find this board, and how would this thread come across? As you say - whether in seriousness or in jest, I can't tell - like a bunch of elitest snobs.
For once, I can understand some of stevec_whatsisname's vitriol directed towards ivory tower British organ snobs (and I'm not trying to be rude about anyone on here, I include myself in this label, despite not being a very good organist!).
It is indeed possible he might draw such a conclusion but the future of civilisation is indeed bleak if we cannot make the distinction between "elitist snobbery" on the one hand and the application of discriminating judgement to assess the relative position in the scale of artistic worth of something which has been put into the public domain accompanied by explicit claims as to its merits and artistic worth.I do not accept that I am snob because I consider Jane Austen a better novelist than Barbara Cartland or Michael Angelo's David a rather better example of the sculptor's art than the plasticene model made by next door's four year old.
On the contrary I consider I am making the use of the brain which I have been given for the purpose for which it was intended, ie thinking and making distinctions which can be defended on the basis of rational criteria. Moreover Andrew Lucas and several others have drawn attention to the fact that there are signs which indicate ability - if you listen to only the first ten seconds or so of the Vierne there would not appear to be all that much wrong with it.
In the bad old days people suffered disadvantage because others based judgements on quite irrelevant considerations such as colour, gender, or social class. It has been a most unfortunate consequence of the process of dealing with that injustice, that the message that making distinctions on the basis of irrelevant considerations is impermissible has been transmuted into "making distinctions on any basis is impermissible and/or elitist." Bentham would have called this nonsense on stilts ! If there are no degrees of attainment then anything is as good and as worthy as anything else. That the world does not actually work or think like this is capable of proof by a quite simple experiment. I invite everyone here next Valentine's day (or at the next available opportunity such as a birthday or anniversary) to arrange to take their significant other for a slap up meal at the greasiest and most sordid local cafe they can find, on the basis that it is snobbish and elitist to draw a distinction between the food to be had there and that at the local restarant with two Micheline Stars. I rather doubt that the extent of agreement with this proposition will be very significant. In fact , I rather suspect that many hereon would consider it likely to be seriously prejudicial to their future happiness and peace of mind to even make the attempt!
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Thank you!
I tried it and it got part-way into the 'improvisation' - and then stopped.
On balance, whilst in a way I am grateful that it stopped, it might be entertaining to hear the entire thing.
Has anyone else had this experience - or does my computer need a good kicking again?
Same thing happened to me when I tried to look at it, possible further evidence of the bounty of the Almighty.
Brian
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OK - I managed four seconds of the 'Widor' - then I had to kill the download.
Well, his biography is correct in at least one detail - this bloke is definitely not an organist.
How does he have the gall to leave this nonsense on the 'net?
Have you tried the Holst ? Or the Fantasy in Dmi which reminds me of something I think I know but I cannot be quite sure. It's like looking at something through frosted glass - you get a sense of outline and form but no clear image.
Out of interest I looked up his CDs to see what they cost . According to his order form they are $30 apiece, when Fred Hohman at Zarex only charges $15 for a Pro Organo CD ! I have a fairly extensive CD collection and I LOVE tonal percussion stops but for quite unaccountable reasons I experience no feeling that my collection will not be complete until I have added at least one CD by "Arty" to it ! No doubt it betrays a certain narrowness of vision on my part and an unwillingness to embace new trends in music making... Ah well
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There seems to some support hereabouts for the concept of a tour...perhaps we should issue an invitation for a couple of lunchtime concerts, Andrew. Can you find a slot at St Saviour's? I' d travel a long way to hear that combination of organ and performer. As for the pronunciation I had imagined it was No-bi-le, as in 'La Donna e....'
Surely the words "to avoid having to" have been left out of the penultimate sentence ?
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But this recording is a treasure - surely it is the only one in existence, in which a giant panda is dressed up in a 'man-suit'....and is then recorded giving a rending [sic] of Repertoire you thought you Knew.
I think I will now have a nice vodka....
I think you are being most unfair to pandas
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He He! My Jewish friends would have loved that typo! Genteel it should have been.
Now...about this list of composers which Brian quotes.
I think it is important to be very exact about dates and specific influences Brian, because things happened so quickly in Europe between, say, 1880 and 1920. (I'm plucking those dates from mid-air).
I am quite happy to be specific about dates. Indeed I was defining a period that began with the accession of Victoria and finished with the death of Edward VII. But it seems we have now moved on to the reigns of George V, Edward VIII and most of George VI's. That's OK. Whitlock's output dates from this period, as does the Alcock Passacaglia and some of Howells. Also the Cocker Tuba Tune ! And Benjamin Britten's Prelude and Fugue ! I am quite happy to accept your basic premise that little first rate British organ music was written in that period, but the prior question is why should there be any expectation that it would be ? The conventional picture has it , I believe, that we produced no front rank native composer between Purcell and Elgar. If that be true, and I think it probably is, then why should the picture in organ music be any different ? It's true that in the period you specify Vaughan Williams, Delius, Walton and Britten were all active reflecting what most would regard as a quantum leap forward in terms of musical attainment, which one might expect to be reflected in the organ world but by then we had left behind the era when it could be pretty much taken for granted that any front rank composer could at least play the organ even if, as in the case of Mozart and Beethoven, they wrote comparatively little for it. So an automatic upgrade in standards of organ composition was not to be expected by then.
IOf the composers which Brian mentions, perhaps the two or three most significant so far as the organ is concerned were Sir Edward Bairstow (a great Brahms enthusiast), Wolstenholme and Howells.
I never quite know how to categorise the organ-music of Howells, which I once famously described as amounting to, "the polite Anglican response to the atheistic harmonic ramblings of Delius."
An interesting feature of much English music written immediately after 1900, was the use of extreme chromaticism, which is also true of Reger. However, whereas Reger kept his riotous imagination under control by the dictates of counterpoint and Lutheran hymnody, (in spite of his catholic faith), English composers just seemed to ramble on regardless; changing key in an eternal cycle of secondary-dominants.
It is exactly this style which personally, I would regard as the most destructive element in English music of the period.
My mention of Caleb Simper was a considered one, because "The village organist" series, published by Novello, was the staple-diet of lesser organists in the majority of small or country parishes. This was pleasant, melodic music of little or no substance, which also included straightforward transcriptions of "the classics." I have copies of this rubbish somewhere, but the typical thing might be a Dvorak string-melody, a bit of Tchaikovsky or a snippet of Beethoven....always nice tunes!
Although the Gramophone has been around since the last quarter of the the nineteenth century you cannot trace its availability to ordinary folks back much earlier than the 1930's and even then you are talking about the middle classes predominantly. The means by which ordinary people encountered , if they did, the great orchestral classics was far more likely to be via an arrangement for Brass band or a transcription for organ. I do not know whether or not it is true but it would certainly not surprise me to learn that as many people first encountered the music of Wagner via organ transcriptions (bearing in mind the remark of George Bernard Shaw that Bach and Wagner were the only things worth hearing at organ recitals) as encountered it in its original guise. So perhaps the organ transcription had its uses in a pre-Walkman, pre-I-pod era.
Now consider how far the performance of "proper" organ-music had sunk about the time that Lt.Col.George-Dixon and Arthur Harrison were doing their thing around the turn of the century.
Here is a quote from an article by Wolstenholme himself:-
"The old Henry Willis scaling effecting crescendo from bass upwards makes for clearness in treble". The Pedal division is sufficiently independent "to solve many problems of Bach and others, where the Manual unison is required along with a sustained pedal." A 32ft. pedal reed is not necessary. Mixture stops are not necessary; if they are provided, no rank should be higher than the fifteenth in order to avoid mixture breaks, "a thing which I detest". Octave couplers are uneccesary because in an organ of this size "the 16ft. and 4ft. represent the sub-octave and octave to the unison". The Vox Humana need not always be used with the tremulant; it can be combined with the Oboe to produce an Orchestral Oboe, for example.
"(Play)...the Bach Fantasia in G-minor on the following combination: Great Open Diapasons II and III and Principal 4ft.; Pedal Violone, Violoncello and Octave 4ft.
This combination he considered "brilliant" registration!
Lemare went even further when he wrote (in 'The Musical Educator', London c1910) that "...a Principal must be put into the same category as the Mixtures; it ought rarely to be used unless capped by an 8ft. reed."
Oddly enough, this re-raises an interesting point which "Lee Blick" raised a few weeks ago, when he questioned the roll-player rendition of the Gigue Fugue played by Lemare, and which I suggested was probably the fault of the registrand. In that player-roll rendition, a heavy-pressure Tromba or Tuba is drawn throughout. Given the foregoing evidence, it tends to suggest that Lemare may well have regarded this as the ideal registration!!
The following would therefore have been the absolute apogee of the Edwardian understanding of "Baroque"......
GREAT
8 Open Diapason
8 Hohl Flute
8 Dulciana
SWELL
8 Violin Diapason
8 Stop Diapason sic
4 Salicet
Tremulant
PEDAL
16 Bourdon
8 Bass Flute
This is the specification of an organ completed around 1910.
With this sort of thing in mind, OF COURSE the Arthur Harrison sound was absolutely sparkling by way of comparison!
But doesn't all the above demonstrate the paucity of knowledge, the sheer insularity of British music, the vain-glorious nationalism and the utter perversion of everything that the organ ought to be?
The divorce from German music thus had little to do with the First World War.
I'm not sure when Healey-Willan wrote his Passacglia,CIRCA 1916 but the story goes that he set out to show that an Englishman could match Reger. I'm not sure that he did, but it is almost certainly the finest of all English organ-works. However, there is evident a certain anti-German sentiment which really has nothing to do with the Arthur Harrison/George-Dixon creative phase.
The fact is, if we lift one or two very fine composers such as Bairstow....OMG....let's include Howells as well (though I prefer the less rambling Whitlock)....out of the equation, what exactly, of real substance, was ever written for the organ in England between, say, 1910 and 1950? (With reference to Healey-Willan as above)
The organ didn't exactly inspire, did it?
All this, a mere generation beyond an era which had such promising stars within its' ranks, who had really done their homework and KNEW about the great tradition of European music. They form the majority of the list which Brian provided.
Oh! You forgot Elgar, Brian!! (Go stand in the corner!)
I did not forget Elgar : I thought it tactful not to mention him by name because of his very strong association with a place beginning with W which we are not allowed to mention, which extended to writing a fairly substantial organ sonata to be performed by the organist of the cathedral at W. I did not see how I could mention him without bringing up these facts, which would necessitate a reference to that place whose name may not be mentioned here...
MM
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On this premise, we may perhaps begin to understand the process of how the more gentile sounds of the English organ .
Given the ethnic make up of the population of Victorian and Edwardian England this statement is likely to be factually accurate though I entertain serious doubts it is what you meant.
It says a lot that the music of Reger never really caught-on in England, but everyone played a lot of third-rate transcriptions.
And not a few first rate ones too, plus quite a lot of original french organ music which seems to have suited the taste of the times better. One should also perhaps not overlook the fact that Reger was German and a great many people who spent their youth evading getting killed and watching their friends blown to bits may have been infected with anti-German sentiment to a degree which it is difficult for us to grasp at this distance of time. One has to remember that Siegesfier (sorry my German is not up to much despite my daughter-in-law being from Cologne) from opus 145 was omitted from post war editions, after all the victory it was written to celebrate was not an Allied one.
which had largely passed England by, as everyone wallowed in the sentimentality of Caleb Simper.
What did this guy write; I cannot recall anything off hand but perhaps I know the tunes but not the composer. However, all active in this period (1837-1911 to embrace both reigns) were Smart, Stanford, Wolstenholme, Hollins, Bairstow, Vaughan Williams, Howells, Faulkes, etc etc most of whom produced at least some pieces which could hardly be called sentimental, unless the term is used in its widest sense to include all descriptions of sentiment up to and including jingoism
(Yes, I know this is a gross over-simplification!) That a man like Robert Hope-Jones could ever be considered a serious organ-builder, is testament to the waywardness of English creativity around the turn of the last century. I would include America in that same equation....we lost him...they got him!
And we got as a result the wurlitzer theatre organ for which I at least am grateful, even if its suitability for "proper organ music" is somewhat restricted. However, Quentin Maclean made a fair stab at it on the Christie at Marble Arch, albeit a somewhat larger instrument than the typical wurlitzer.
It comes down to the serious question as to what we are all about. If it isn't about music, what are we about?
I hope I am not just a train-spotter, though God knows, with a steam-railway rattling past every few minutes in the summer months, I may as well be!
This shouldn't be about "Romantic" v. "Classical," but about Romantic comparison. Much as I may admire what Arthur Harrison did, (and I do!), I am much more stirred by the work of Hill (especially under the leadership of Thomas Hill), who was not only misrepresented by the likes of Lt.Col. George-Dixon, but actually despised by him. Logically speaking, that means that our military friend had no time for the organ at Sydney Town Hall, which says it all, I suppose.
We have a nice Hill here in Belfast too in the Ulster Hall. Check out the reissued DGW recordings from the 1980s on the Ulster Hall
So I end with a question and a statement.
Am I expected to admire a MASTER dilettante who changed so much, but had cloth-ears?
I certainly admire the faithful SERVANT who crafted a silk-purse from those same ears!!
MM
PS: Why a W C Jones Tuba Pierre? Have you never heard a proper Fr.Willis one?
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Yes, I distinctly remember my first year at Bacup and Rawtenstall Grammar School. One episode that remains etched on my memory was the occasion on which one of my classmates (a lad answering to the soubriquet "Pod") ate a considerable quantity of raw garlic in the moments before afternoon registration.
But what happened next ? Whom did he breathe on ? You, the teacher, the school nurse and with what subsequent result ? What impact did this have on your decision to become an organist, if any ? Would you say this was a life changing moment, for example, because it put you off/ irrevocably addicted you to all things French thereafter ?
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I think I have that recording, but the organ is just so "wrong" for the music and the acoustic non-existent.
However, I heard it said on good authority, that GTB used to make a mistake in the playing of the Reubke, to which he stayed faithful/convinced for decades.
Apparently, no-one had the nerve or the heart to point it out to him!!
Was there truth in this?
I hope someone knows, or else I'm going to have to dig out the old LP and listen to it with the score....24 minutes of it!
MM
I have never heard this said before and certainly I have no recollection of any review making any such a point, although I do recall exception being taken to over use of the swell pedal. To the best of my recollection Rennert's biography of GTB does not mention it but he would n't, would he ?
If you do not like All Souls' then presumably Arnold Richardson at the RFH is a non starter. What about Dearnley at St Paul's , John Scott at Southwark Cathedral , Jennifer Bate at the RAH or Simon Preston at the Abbey (either version)?
Brian Childs
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Personally (and so long as the Moderators do not object) I would be very interested indeed to read a discussion on this subject. How about a new thread on the General Discussion forum?
I would too, and since the principal function of many organs is for accompanimental purposes both that which (ie the music) and those whom (ie the singers) they accompany would seem sufficiently connected to this forum to be discussed here. I do not see why the moderators would object unless the discussion gets too heated.
Brian Childs
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I've not heard the De Montfort Hall organ but have heard lots of good things said about it. I'm going to try and get up to Leicester in March when Prof Ian Tracey is performing.
Meanwhile you could beg or borrow a copy of Organ X-plosion Volume 1 in which Kevin Bowyer puts it through its paces, not least with the celebrated Toccata La Vallee verte, sur le theme "Pat le Facteur". Perhaps another possible wedding postlude ?
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I was wondering whether MM had heard Roger Fisher's recent recording of the Reubke again at Chester on Amphion recorded only a couple of years ago? I'd had the CD for a while without actually listening to it until a couple of weeks ago when I put the Reubke on. This is real no holds barred playing, quite exhilirating and nothing like so many other performances which tend to be over refined and considered. Roger Fisher just puts his foot down and goes hell for leather, particularly in the fugue at the end. My only disappointment was when he slams on the brakes for the last few chords instead of hurtling into the abyss at full steam.
The last point is fascinating since a review of the original recording (EMI for Vol 19, the final volume, in the Great Cathedral Organ Series and now re-released on Amphion so you can get both and compare if rich enough) by a lady called Isla Tait made exactly the same criticism. It would suggest that RF has maintained a remarkably consistent approach to at least some aspects of his interpretation of this work.
Elsewhere somebody raised the issue of favourite interpretations of celebrated works. I'm not sure I have a favourite interpretation of the Reubke, but amongst the several I do have is one by GTB on the organ of All Souls' , Langham Place (Vista). I wonder if anyone else here has an opinion on that one.
Brian Childs
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I play brass....or at least used to do.
I can assure Brian that the "Connotations for Brass" is by Edward Gregson.
On that site is a snippet of the music, of which I have a copy somewhere among my sheet-music.
MM
Yes , and so is the Tuba Concerto so I assume it must be the same man. I cannot account for why I wrote "John" unless either I was thinking of a celebrated British Actor from a previous generation or I had transposed the christian name of one of the other composers on the CD who is indeed John. Disc is still worth getting though. I am reliably informed that the new term to describe such aberations is "intellectual overload" though it might also be simple tiredness caused by staying up past my bedtime .
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Brian's suggestion about the Brass Band movement is actually quite fascinating, and demonstrates an immediate lack of knowledge, but for entirely respectable and understandable reasons....it's a world apart from organ OR mainstream.
I happily confess to knowing next to nothing about the Brass Band Movement, which has always been more of a Northern than a Southern movement, and seems to be concentrated in areas where a large number are (or at least once were) employed by a single large employer. For that reason it was not a particularly noticeable feature in the musical life of East Yorkshire whilst I was there and is not significant in Ulster. (However if you want to know about Flute Bands and Lambeg Drums...)I do like Cornet Carillon, but my Brass Band LPs tend to date from the era of Harry Mortimer !
Let me put it in an anecdotal way. I was at the 1974 (?) Brass Band World Final at the Albert Hall, when "Black Dyke" won a resounding victory under the baton of Mjr.Peter Parkes, playing the superb composition "Connotations for Brass" by Edward Gregson. It was the the year that "Dyke" picked up the triple-crown and blew everyone away in the process.
That would be the John Gregson whose Tuba Concerto has just appeared on a Naxos CD along with others by Steptoe, Golland and, of course, RVW's. A CD well worth getting . I quite like orchestral concertos featuring Brass instruments!
Now, I ask the questions. Was it municpal-pride? Was it sport? Was it gang warfare? Was it art?
.Since you acknowledge any or all of these factors could be at work, I do not think my original suggestion was all that wide of the mark. The evidence of the response of your friend is the testimony of a single witness to the event. Others, whose evidence we do not have might have been simultaneously celebrating success whilst wondering how it was achieved , given the piece played. Equally they might have shared your young friend's enthusiasm. There is nothing to indicate one way or the other
There's an aspect to modern Czech music which intrigues me. Brian asked is dissonance is a requirement of modern music, to which I would reply with the suggestion that Bach could be extremely dissonant and Gesualdo positively perverse. Under the communist regime, "people music" was all important, and the use of extreme dissonance was discouraged. Consequently, the Czech composers built on their roots....folk-song, gregorian chant etc etc. It means that much of the music (assuming it to be mainstream communist-party approved) was actually quite often melodic, sometimes a little "old fashioned" for the period, but always very user-friendly, with sparkling rhythms and even a sense of humour. It's very "human" music by and large. Martinu, who was certainly mainstream, is a good example. Petr Eben can get very dissonant, but them, he can use rhythm and recurring themes to hold the attention, as in the splendid "Moto Ostinato" from the "Sunday Music" (now called "Musica Dominicalus").
If dissonance was only a modern discovery our word for it would probably be a lot longer, if we could confine ourselves to a single word. The issue as far as I am concerned is not so much the FACT of its use as the EXTENT of its use. I know of nothing by Bach in which dissonance comprises the majority of the music but some modern organ music could be thus described. As far as I am concerned I prefer it to be like seasoning in cooking - a small amount adds interest and stimulates the palate but too much produces something inedible. Still to each his own
, BUT THIS IS OUR EUROPE HERITAGE AND WE SHOULD EMBRACE IT!
: I am perfectly happy to fully endorse this sentiment
MM
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Hi all
I was just wondering what music is currently popular for those quiet interludes in weddings, when sheep might otherwise safely graze. For my part, I must confess that my pastures are totally grazed out, and the sheep are (probably rightly) fearing that I mean them mortal harm. I don't think I could bring myself to play a certain ovine piece (except under great duress) for quite a while.
I'm going through something of a Widor phase at the moment, and was thinking of the Andante Cantabile from the 4th Symphonie or the Adagio from the 5th the next time something comes along (and nothing else is insisted upon).
Rgds,
MJF
Why this hostility to sheep ? They are generally remarkably inoffensive creatures and a good deal brighter than we give them credit for ( I was going to say than the average University student these days but that would be a slight exaggeration). However, why not liven up your Bach with references to other tunes with an ovine connection eg, Baa baa black sheep, Mary had a little lamb, The main theme from "Babe" or one of the various French Noels referring to shepherds. Just a thought.
40 Stop, 3 Manual Organ
in Nuts and bolts
Posted
Would not a device to switch all electric power to the pulpit handrail at an appropriate point be more effective/satisfying or would that be reserved for clergy who are really disliked by organists ?