ajsphead
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Posts posted by ajsphead
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I suspect here that we are looking at a development in organ building practice. In times past, when new instruments were more common, builders built mainly in their native country. They followed a native style, tempered by regional and a company's historical style, some of whom showed more sympathy for the past than others.
The organ building world is a different place now, and larger companies have a house style, often an amalgam of different national styles to a greater or lesser extent, and admitted to, also to a greater or lesser extent. International building is more commonplace, and so organ builders are exposed to different national styles and practices more so than in the past which expands their first hand knowledge of different styles and practices. This of course tends to apply to new organs, but has an association to rebuilds.
A rebuild is not necessarily approached from the same perspective from one country to another, nor is even defined in the same terms. The materials are ubiquitous, the skills are there, although one's choice is often tempered by the fine detail. This is what sets apart one firm from another, and the quality of advice and decision making from one person to another. Therefore the expectations are not always the same, the decision making process is not always the same and the outcome which is enjoyed by one community, could be reviled by another.
As Pierre has said, organ builders are subject to demands placed upon them from outside influences, and one has to distinguish between those companies who will be hampered by this, those who can thrive in the circumstances, and those who do as they are contracted to do. The issue is often in understanding these external demands and being able to apply them to the way the customer sees them. The problem comes when a fundamental disagreement exists, when the customer will not understand or accept the experience of the organ builder. The organ builder still has to live, and so will more likely do as asked. The customer unfortunately is not always right, but the organ builder has to live with the reputation of the instrument as dictated by the customer.
If we returned to the way things were, when the organ builder consulted with the customer, and then built his best organ, in his style, as a personal work of art, he would have his own reputation at stake, controlled mainly by his own hand. With a rebuild, things are not as clear. Without knowing precise requirements, every rebuild is different. The organ builder may do a first class job, exactly to the customer's requirements, and the concensus is that it is a failure. He may do a second rate job, which is fine for 10 years, near enough to the customer's requirements, and be internationally applauded for fine work. We have the added problem now, that rebuilds are often regarded as very good if they border more on restorations. Excluding historical work, I wish we could more often understand the 'rebuilt and improved by' as something different from 'rebuilt and butchered by', and give builders more of a chance to improve instruments without being overly critical. If it has been 'butchered', more often than not, the builder will be blamed. 1940 - 1990 is probably responsible for much of this, but I think we are moving on, and if not, we can be more critical. Often the best understanding of an organ comes from those who use it, and the problem lies with these people not being swayed by the fashions of the day, nor indeed any consultants employed. The customer still lies at the root of the result. The organ builder can be of the finest quality but is unable to demonstrate what could really be achieved unless given free rein.
I personally believe that the fashion of the day should be to produce the best instument for the building and what goes in within it. This could be neo baroque, hope jones symphonic, or anything in between, or even a new style where an old style does not suffice. Some places have historic instruments which cannot be treated in the same way, but the zenith of the art, to me, is a perfect marriage between instrument, environment and user. It's a very different set of principles to what is often argued now, whether openly admitted to or not, and far more challenging. In places where it has been employed, the results speak for themselves. Listeners will always have a preference for a type of sound, and will try to argue that it works, but that is where the artistry and individuality of different builders comes to the fore, even with a rebuild. You get the conception of the firm you chose, and a result based on open minded principles. A lot of this is based on confidence, and I suspect that this is what is lacking more so now than in the past.
AJS
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In the church where I now play, a voluntary before or after the service is rare, the church preferring people to pray beforehand and come for healing ministry afterwards. I do play voluntaries by prior arrangement, and have begun to overcome misunderstandings, ignorance, awkward attitudes etc by playing music relevant to that Sunday. This is not just relevant liturgically, but relevant socially, or should that societally, and relevant to the time of year, eg Jongen Chant de Mai, or Hollins Spring Song. I also put a brief programme note, a couple of sentences or so, on the notice sheet for people to read, and invite them to sit and treat it as part of their worship, or afterwards gather around the console if they wish to.
Yes, it's hard work finding and often having to learn the music, and the links are sometimes a little tenuous, but it breaks down barriers, and blatantly demonstrates that the organist is trying to serve the worshipping needs of the community. There will always be one miserable sod who won't understand, but my skin is thicker than their tongue, although perhaps not their brain. The problem comes when there are some wonderful pieces of music that have absolutely no relevance to the life of the church or the population. However, having established the former, you can often get away with the latter.
AJS
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Unfortunately, only a close examination of the flues, tips and wind pressures will answer this. I would be surprised, and rather saddened if anything had been done. This instrument did go with real crack of the whip, quite offensive to some, but a period work of art nonetheless. In synergy with the artistic ideals of the time, including the architecture of the Cathedral extension, it works so well.
Keeping to topic, I always loved the Imperial Trumpet - a big loud taxi horn - lots of fun.
AJS
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A few months ago, I was staying with a friend who played me a disc of some organ music from Norwich Cathedral. After two or three minutes, I could bear it no longer and had to ask him to change the disc. I found the sound to be oppressive, incredibly opaque and, at times, rather unclear.
A good case, and some nice individual registers. Otherwise not a thing of beauty.
AJS
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KXiqMcpGR0...feature=related, confirms some of what I thought, along with the stoplist on the cathedral website. As a general short description; quart in a pint pot or more accurately, possibly a margarine tub, distributed horizontally in the choir triforium. Well it isn't going to be audible in the nave. A case of reorganisation into a projecting vertical format with disposition of pipes and soundboards dependent on the job they have to do (clearly simplistic) would greatly enhance the effectiveness of the instrument. The only things it seems to need are a little rationalisation, a big scale principal and reed chorus on heavier pressures, a 32/16/8 Open Wood unit of fairly large scale and a nave organ. Obviously just a very broad overview, but this organ is not a lost cause by any means.
AJS
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......Another proof they would do better forgetting that one for a moment:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OM7er1y_Lpw...feature=related
......And really well played with that.
Long life to the crisis!
Pierre
Can someone please enlighten me as to what, tonally, is wrong with this organ. Putting aside any electrical and mechanical problems, this http://www.nationalcathedral.org/arts/organProject.shtml sheds some light. If it's a projection issue, internal remodelling, perhaps with projecting casework to allow principle choruses to be sited in free space would sort most of it out. A new small instrument II/P and about 15 stops playable from its own, and the main console, sited in the nave would sort the rest out and give an intimate teaching instrument. They might even be able to afford it too.
AJS
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Have just bought a copy of the Symphonie en improvisation, having been captivated by it as a teenager when the BBC broadcast it once a very long time ago. Purchased from the stretta website at a very reasonable price. Now all I have to do is sink my mind into a different idiom, particularly as most of my thought through improvisations have more inspiration from Britten and Tippett.
AJS
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I'd like to add a 13 stop Willis 3 in a small village church in the Cotswolds. I think it might be Miserden, although don't quote me on that. From memory, the church seats about 70, and the voicing was conceived on a grand scale. gt was 8 8 8 4, swell was 8 8 8 8 4 8 (Horn) with octave and sub, pedal was 16 (full length open metal) 16 8. You could accompany the Sunday congregation on the Gt Dulciana coupled to the Swell Open. Increase the sound according to the number of stops and couplers, and you get the picture. Job was about 10' from the console, very unpleasant after more than about 2 minutes.
I also recall standing in the Choir directly opposite the Arthur Wills Ely organ at full tilt. That is the most uncomfortable aural experience I have had; I remember saying that it was bordering on evil, still couldn't hear it down the nave although it was fine in the pub.
AJS
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The 1872 organ was obviously lost by fire in 1953, but who the bloody hell was "TUNKS" who did things to it in 1924(?)
DW
I believe there were a couple of them knocking about just South of the river. Charles and Frederick I think, with some associations to G & D, Bishops and TCL. Don't know a lot more than that.
AJS
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And for a final hurrah
The string family with their four daughters. Sally cional, Dulcie ana, and the sagittarian twins Celeste and Viol Celeste
AJS
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Mr & Mrs 'Gott in der hoh sei ehr' and their son Allen 'Gott in der hoh sei ehr'
AJS
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Mr & Mrs Bella, and their ravishing daughter Clara,
The noble Mr & Mrs Yon-des-Heures-de-Soissons and their daughter Carol
Mr & Mrs 'on the 94th Psalm' and their son 'ata on the 94th Psalm'
AJS
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I love playing the organ, and more so - playing for the liturgy. Obviously faith is an important connection to accompanying the liturgy, no matter how loose the connection is. The reality is that over the past 5 years, I've had what little faith I had systematically beaten out of me. As I said before, I do not want to get into incumbent-bashing, as I have worked a system by which I basically 'get on' with the present P in C. Sad to say, I cannot take Tony's advice and speak to the incumbent, as this is basically the problem. I now only have occasional flashes of inspiration, and this is generally when the incumbent is not present.
I like the church where I play the organ - the choir and congregation appreciate me, so why should I move on?
In terms of recitals - yes I love giving them, not as much as I would like. Playing the organ is a real passion, and I'm continually questing for new and interesting music to play.
Thank you all for you comments, and please keep them coming.
Hector
In common with others here, I have faced similar problems, having the spirit pushed out of you by the attitude and approach of the clergy. This ranges from the extremes of low church evangelical, to my last appointment at the top of the candlestick of anglo catholicism. I felt that I had lost my zip, particularly with off the cuff improvisations during the offertory but the congregation were so sad when I left that it caused me to consider the driving forces at work. Having been strongly of the opinion that everything I do should be an offering to God, I felt it was a demotivation when the clergy do not view it in the same way, do not consult or even ask for an opinion, not necessarily expecting them to take up a suggestion, and do not take into account the needs of the church when specifying the service music.
Upon further examination, I discovered that the cause of my psychological position was rooted in the fundamental belief that the clergy were neither listening to nor paying heed to the needs of the congregation, and much of my concern was on their behalf. I would seriously question, as did others, whether that church was feeding the spiritual needs of many, or indeed any of those present, except the clergyman, and it was for my own, and my family's spiritual welfare primarily, that I decided to leave.
I was fully aware that I had nowhere else to go to play. but considered the time could be well spent getting to know God again, trying other churches, and offering my services to one who would understand and use my skills, and where I and my family could find a spiritual home. It feels a little like a wilderness to start with, but if you keep talking to and listening to God, and try to keep an open mind and don't write your own prescription for God's solution then you stand a chance of growing in your faith, from which many more things may come.
AJS
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Looking at para 6, does anything really blend with a 19th C hohl flute or is this a convenient notion ? This is as distinct from a pre 19th C holzflote or accurate copies thereof.
AJS
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I think these curious details were a help/stimulus to Bach himself, but put there mostly for the Glory of God - like the medieval masons carving things with real care that everyone knew would never be seen again once the scaffolding came down.
I suppose knowing that something is special in some hidden way does make one look at it with new respect*. The Canonic Variations on 'Vom Himmel hoch' for instance - I would play the dots the same, regardless, but knowing how (for instance) the whole of one melody line is duplicated later in another part in double values does point up the genius/brainpower of the composer. In practical terms, I would have to ensure that my phrasing was consistent from one line to the other, but this is merely a good rule in performance anyway.
In my early years of Harmony and Counterpoint lessons, I was shown how in virtually all Bach Chorales the composer uses the perfect cadence out of all proportion in preference to all others. If there is any way of making a perfect cadence, into whatever key necessary, he does it! You could say that now we know why - the bass line of his preferred perfect cadence is the Kreutzfigur! [vide earlier posting if this needs explanation]
*An organ parallel:
My late friend, Father Charles Watson of Prinknash Abbey was known to some as 'the organ-building monk'. His opinion was regularly sought by fellow RC Clergy and on one occasion he was called in to advise about the Walker organ at The Sacred Heart, Wimbledon. On his journey to see it, he had read about the organ, knew its specification and history and had mentally prepared (as he told me later) to recommend that it be replaced with a smaller (mechanical action) organ. This would (in all probability) have been exactly the advice that other RC advisers like Ralph Downes and Dr.Rowntree would have given at the time.
Upon entering the organ case, however, his eyes were met with lavish use of polished mahogany in chests and so forth: parts that nobody but the humble organ-builder would ever see. He was overcome with the quality of the original construction and immediately changed his mind. 'This organ must be preserved as it stands!'
I too spent many happy hours with Fr Charles, and later with Fr Mark at Prinknash. Whilst I would not have necessarily done things the way he did, I had the utmost respect and love for the man who achieved so much with what largely amounted to gifts of an utterly disparate nature. I know the 'pup' lives on in the Grange, but what about the organ he had in his room ? It had some lovely 18th C English pipework. Prinknash was the only place I went where it was a pleasure to do the washing up.
AJS
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Please can we be careful when writing in these terms. It's easy to border on xenophobia, whether wittingly or not. To think that some of the foremost builders in the world are not capable of working at the highest level is frankly insulting. It would not surprise me to think that authors in others countries could say the same thing about British builders working in their country, which I am sure we collectively, and our native builders would regard as insulting. One should look at the quality of the work of the firms, and understand their working practices before commenting. The best way to do this is to observe their work with a critical eye and ear, bearing in mind what constraints were placed upon them, and to talk to the people concerned. One can get somewhat nearer a balanced judgement then. A good firm can do good work wherever, but at least at the outset, only the firm, the customer and the consultant if employed will know the absolute nature of the position and requirements.
AJS
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Sorry but this performance does nothing for me. It seems to have missed the grit and drama, the nature of the keys chosen, and the episodic nature of ripieno and concertino in the prelude. In short I am struggling to find the raison d'etre of the performance, and some of the articulation in the fugue I am still trying to work out. Horses for courses I suppose.
AJS
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And dare I suggest that if modern-day organbuilders in the UK were treated with anything approaching the level of respect which their predecessors were and allowed the artistic input into their new work which their predecessors were, then the outcomes may be more favourable!
And there m'Lud, I rest me case - no consultant, the tonal scheme, architectural and technical designs were entirely without outside interference.
DW
Here here. the applause around the UK from similar quarters is deafening. The art continues in spite of and in the face of, and often having to kowtow to the people and situations you're referring to. The cream will rise to the top as it always has done, but do we want it pasteurised, homogenised and fully skimmed. The danger is there that it will become merely a glimpse of it's true nature and potential.
AJS
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Here is a link that might be interesting:
http://www.organrecitals.com/stpauls.php
It illustrates the whys and the hows Willis organs have been tinkered with
since a century...
Pierre
Thanks Pierre.
This is going to take quite a lot of dissecting.
AJS
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In short, small scale?
Generally speaking, small scale, 4 1/2 mouth, driven hard. The 17th subject to the quint, which in turn is subject to the unison. However it's not a stop in isolation, it is made as part of the chorus, scales as per the Willis textbook, carefully thought through and successful. This is what annoys me when obvious Willis, or any other firm for that matter who worked to known and understood principles, choruses have stops, particularly mixtures, added, which can be done so in a sympathetic style, if not necessarily in strict historical recreation, and are not. Wiilis being a particularly good example of gaining brilliance from a 17 19 22/ 12 15 17 mixture if you know what you're doing. I saw another example just this last week, so it is still clearly not understood yet. We know enough now to do better.
Rant over, but this is a point of artistry, respect and understanding which by now should have been sorted out.
AJS
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A Dulciana Cornet, certainly not !
But something else than a "Mixture" as made by Willis under that name,
for sure.
Pierre
So I suspect the intention was different, particularly if it was first referred to as echo cornet, of which I cannot think of another example in similar context. As it seems like an unusual example, I wonder if there is any documentary evidence for the choice, or of a metamorphosis to the existing sound - purely for interest's sake you understand, would hate to get small minded and retentive over such things.
AJS
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Quite so.
And of course we all know that the house of Willis never bothered with Tierces.
How many Willis organs do you know with Tierces in the Mixtures?
Come on!!
This is getting silly!!
Listen to Salisbury.
It's ALL Quints!!!
R
St Patrick's Cathedral Dublin and Lincoln Cathedral are the only 2 that readily spring to mind without tierces. What you've said here has raised an important point. The balance of most Fr Willis tierce mixtures are different from the run of the mill English tradition Tierce mixtures. There are some exceptions, for example, I personally find the Sw III in St Pauls quite strong. I remember once adamantly wanting to put a Tierce mixture on the Gt of a late Fr Willis in place of some Dutch factory pipes c1971, and the organist telling me he would resign if I did. The mixture is there by the way. He was clearly listening with his mind and not his ears - neurologically speaking of course this does not hold up, but I think you know what I mean.
I think Fr Willis got them right, bright with a bit of zing, not thick and clanky.
AJS
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This has long been a bugbear of mine that, as an established church, the C of E is linked to the state, and should be given the opportunity to either be exempt from VAT or given the opportunity to reclaim it. Would be interested to know about the state churches in the rest of the EU to compare.
AJS
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Many thanks chaps, very helpful. Looking forward to receiving it.
AJS
Leeds Cathedral
in The Organ
Posted
Well that depends on a number of things. I think they will be if users of them are not satisfied. This then depends on why they are not satisfied. Was the original conception correct, was the execution of it successful, do we know something important and relevant that we did not know when it was built, has the use for the instrument changed substantially. These are all questions at the root of the answer. Is it therefore a successful marriage of instrument, environment and use. If not, we as human beings with sensitivity will pick up on this and want to achieve it, so the instrument will change. I personally believe the conception of many recent new concert hall organs in this country, and for that matter, all over the world, is wrong; this is not the CAD conception, or the intention of the tonal designer, both of whom would be highly skilled and well intentioned. I cannot yet work out how biscuit tin principals and wall to wall french reeds work in a dead acoustic - not specifically an acoustic without reverberation, but an acoustic which is sonically neutral. So, will organs of this type be rebuilt, or even thrown out? Yes I think they will because they fail at a basic level with the way they interact with people's ears in the environment where they are. This is not to say they are bad instruments, far from it, just in the wrong home. Born to be victims of fashion yet again. There is a place for every type of instrument ever produced, and some that have yet to be. Unless the relationship is right, from the beginning, dissatisfaction will sooner or later ensue, and, money permitting, the organ will be changed.
AJS