ajsphead
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Posts posted by ajsphead
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But isn't that less of a problem now than it was 20 years ago?
You'd certainly hope so. To be accurate I think slides are OK here. If you're having a new soundboard then why not look at the planting to see if you can get a 4' principal on it too. It's perfectly OK in this Walker period to plant off 8' basses completely. It's also not a complete sin to plant off a 4' bottom octave either and if your soundboard is wide enough to plant the 2' in a single row you might do it.
Best of luck
AJS
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I suggest this has nothing to do with Norman and Beard and everything to do with the firm who electrified it, what transmission system they chose, whether or not the final stage was releathered, and if so in what thickness material.
Not enough bag I reckon. Or, the mistaken 70's/80's idea of egg wash as a preservative.
Anthony
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There's a lot of variance from firm to firm, but I tend to find slides becoming more popular from the 1890's onwards. Certainly JWW were using slides from around then.
Given my way, I'd cone tune everything smaller than a 2' pipe if the pipes are made correctly, tuners had all the correct tuning implements and the services of all gorillas were terminated.
AJS
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Your original statement that "the principle of pneumatic action is not to be questioned" has jumped forward two spaces, six to the left and turned around three times to get to this; the action is OK because this is what the music should sound like, and the music sounds like that because the action responds like that. The only alternative you admit is a chiffy neo-classical box of squeaks, which has nothing to do with the argument at all as far as I can tell.
That's not the debate we're having. Nobody disputes that pneumatic action is an acceptable way of making pipes sound, and indeed some of them last quite a long time with the right combination of weather, attention and luck. You said the principle of pneumatic action is not to be questioned. Therefore, would you, in all seriousness, build one from scratch today in a country with long-ish dry summers, long-ish centrally heated winters and about four weeks of moderately warm and humid weather between each? I sincerely hope not.
I think that before condeming all the alternatives as 'neo classical' you might address my earlier point; that the widespread adoption of the electropneumatic action happened because of the widespread difficulty, expense and inconvenience of having an action which was characterised by being slow in response, unpredictable on cold/hot/dry/wet days, and exceedingly complicated to fix should (say) something go wrong with one note of one coupler. Something better came along which kept the best features of the old and combined them with speed, reliability, convenience, compactness and a very low price.
(That's not to say that I'd bin every pneumatic action. I wouldn't. But I'm curious about why your defence of them has to go so far into the realms of ideology that it begins to lose credibility.)
Thinking about this in terms of the Shrewsbury organ, I'd be uncomfortable about installing a t/pn action in a known damp environment. The changes in humidity could easily play havoc with the regulation of the action. It's much easier to keep electrics clear of water, but some thought into the type of components, position and maintenance of them ought to happen. I love tubular pneumatics but would never wish to follow a path that created inbuilt unreliability just to make a point, whatever that point was.
AJS
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Love my SD1. Also preparing to work on 1978 Princess. The Allegro and Princess are two of the least rusting cars from the 1970's being remarkably well designed for the time, and Leyland were still trying to innovate, but were hampered by so many things from inside and outside the company that the writing was pretty much on the wall without a major sea change in attitudes as well as money. ARONline is an interesting read on all this.
I still have battles with people half my age who think everything they produced was rubbish. It's nearly all based on pub knowledge and historic reputation rather than reality. Sure there was a litany of disasters like the SD1 paint shop. You might like to note that Brasilia Brown did stick unlike a lot of the other colours. Read into that what you will.
Anthony
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That was my worry too. I have seen countless Walker keyboards of this generation, and earlier, and never known any of them have a problem, even in temperature/humidity extremes. In any case, the first symptom of atmospheric problems I would expect to see would be the key coverings coming away. I regularly see six from the mid 60s and five from the mid 50s which have had no attention at all other than a light dusting in the intervening years.
Likewise. A little cleaning of contacts and wipers on the non diodised ladder switch set ups as you'd expect. Otherwise wear rates are as good as you could hope for.
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JWW was, in effect P&S from 1975 although not the Brandon P&S we know now. I'd be surprised if what was behind the key action was much different to a diodised contact and wiper arrangement, and from 1979 it's fair to assume a degree of wear on the components. It's a simple job to replace them unless you want to go for a change in the type of touch generation, but I don't get the impression that's what your builder is talking about. I hope they're not trying to bamboozle you.
AJS
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The keyboards almost certainly will have been made at P&S. They are, and as far am I'm aware always have been, of a good standard construction. If for some reason you have a set of KA keyboards there may be some variance. I don't understand the remark about flawed design. Sure, they may not necessarily be top notch toggle touch keys, but I don't know of anything that a little adjustment of the type cynic suggests wouldn't sort out. More severe climatic conditions may have some bearing, but the keys should be laminated to minimise this. Get your builder to show you the problem on their next visit.
AJS
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I really think that the argument on either side falls down as soon as broad brush strokes are applied. There are simply too many exceptions to ever be able to address this matter in anything near to definitive terms. It is something that can only ever be adequately addressed on an individual basis with the parties concerned, with absolute honesty from both sides. Prior agendas are probably the most damaging aspect of this discussion and are met far more than is healthy or right, but they are there nonetheless. Maybe you would be amazed, and maybe you wouldn't at the nature of such agendas. Often parties had no idea they were there, and it can be a tall order to overcome them.
Very often the problem is not the instrument at all, but the people involved in the decision making process.
AJS
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An instrument I have known (on and off) for nearly twenty years, has over this period received attention from an organ technician who is known to be remarkably 'cost-effective'. Some of this attention has involved essential repairs - patching leaks etc. - but there have been numerous tonal changes and additions: for example, the only 4' Principal in a manual division was replaced by a 4' string, a 16' reed was added that sounds like pebbles shaken in a jar, electronic pedal stops and console gadgets were added etc. etc. etc. After all of this, it still sounds to be short of wind, none of the stops blend, full organ makes the toes curl, and yet this was once a good instrument by a first-rate builder. A blind 'purist' approach might have attempted to restore the instrument to an imagined original state (long since lost), but a proper craftsman would have concentrated on the winding, action and voicing to return this beast to some form of musicality. The latter approach is unlikely to have cost more than all the additions, yet the result would have been far better - and musical once more.
Well there's no accounting for incompetence...except when you come to put it right.
AJS
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I don't want to end up caught in one of my characteristic circular arguments, but I really don't see how this can be possible. Restoration is about doing the least amount of work necessary to render an instrument in as-new condition. Consumables are; sheepskin on reservoirs and pallets, leather buttons and felt washers. In short, getting to grips with the fundamentals before worrying about anything clever.
It really does depend on where you're starting and exactly where you're going. So many things can be done to an instrument so that, whilst it is still recognisable as a version of the original thing, and therefore restorable, the devil is very much in the precise detail, and that can be very expensive to rectify. You also have to consider, for example the cost of ripping out an electro-pneumatic action, and rebuilding from scratch something like a Binns 3 stage pneumatic action. However you look at it, it's going to cost a lot of money.
AJS
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I've only played a small amount of Peeters' music, but what I've played, I've liked:
Aria - I'm sure most on here will be familiar with this one.
Suite Modale - a great work, not too taxing, except perhaps the final toccata movement. The other three movements (Koraal, Scherzo, Adagio) are not problematic at all.
Lied-Symphony - I've only ever bashed my way through the last two movements of this, but I think it's a really great work. It's also a shame we don't often hear the work in its entirety. It's rather tricky, and quite difficult to make it sound convincing.
I've also got the score to that Ave Maris Stella work, but haven't ever tried it. Perhaps others can give some tips on this one.
VA
I regularly play T, F, & H on Ave Maris Stella. Not unduly difficult, about 3 systems in the Fugue need attention, but it's satisfying to play and people like to listen to it. Should be aired a bit more I think.
AJS
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And this!
I don't think even the most extreme of the neo baroque would have coined a Pelzregal
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Would it be your wish maybe ? After a very interesting post....
(I have been a trained engine engineer in another life. My speciality
was fuel-efficiency)
Pierre
And ultimately I think you'll win the argument. My greatest joy is that the onward march of fuel efficiency leaves so much more petrol around for those of us who enjoy burning it. (Doesn't stop me enjoying a good kick from a turbo though.)
AJS
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Nigel I fully agree. I'd like people to name a couple of really successful musical instruments that have been built in the UK in the past 30 years. I can only think of 2 and I look after one of them!
I can think of 2 or maybe 3 of which only one was totally new, although the concept and execution of the other two would render them ostensibly new. I suspect if we collectively add our 2's we'll come up with a fair few. I'm thinking about their fitness for purpose rather the sound that they produce per se. It's harder than you might think.
AJS
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I know that when I ran a Jaguar 4.2, I used this technique all the time unless I chose to show-off to some poor, unsuspecting passenger. Then I used the left foot on the brake, braked modestly and then applied power early on a deserted, wet and greasy roundabout. Releasing the brakes, the brute would slew dramatically sideways, and exit in an impressive power-slide with steam pouring from the rear tyres!!
Well.....it was a lot of fun anyway, and sooooo easy to control. Mendelssohn isn't half so much fun.
MM
I have an SD1 that'll do the same - it's great in slippery conditions, so long as you don't mind going sideways. Mendelssohn may have written some exquisite music, but none of it compares to a free breathing V8 bellow.
AJS
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It does raise an interesting question, as to why the Lewis sound has never been re-created or used as the basis for a more modern British organ style.
MM
The Lord alone knows the answer to that one, as I think you have hit the nail on the head. It's obviously English, full of character and marries English heavy pressure reed voicing with gloriously clear principals, and lovely flutes. Strings are a bit scratchy for my liking, but the concept is there.
AJS
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The Compton Harmonics was usually 10-2/3', 6-2/5', 5-1/3', 4-4/7' and sometimes, (but not always) 3-5/9'. The 10-2/3' and the 5-1/3' ranks were usually pinched from the Bourdon or Sub Bass unit but the other harmonics were delivered by large-scaled stopped metal pipes, a bit like normal Compton tibia pipes. These pipes were of course tuned 'true' and their pitches were really quite indistinguishable individually. Other ranks were often derived by extension also providing a large and extraordinarily effective 32' reed effect. On at least one Compton organ I have seen, played the 16' big reed at 32' pitch to tenor C with the "Harmonics" taking over at B. The Harmonics were nine ranks consisting: 16', 10-2/3', 8', 6-2/5', 5-1/3', 4-4/7', 4, 3-5/9', 3-1/5'.
I concur within the caveat of the ranks available. The thing is not to be too prescriptive. You have to use your base but then be prepared to swap things around depending on what your ears tell you, very easy to do electro mechanically.
AJS
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I used to play a gemshorn. It had a rather beautiful sound that was chiefly like a recorder but less bright but slightly reedy. Whilst that article says that the organ stop is modelled on the instrument, in fact the instrument is conical and stopped whereas as the organ stop is conical and open. What difference does this make? If a real gemshorn is like an ocarina, where the position of the holes is sort of irrelevent, could a version of (?Compton's) polyphone be made that is like a large sphere-like ocarina, with more holes being uncovered for successively higher notes?
Gemshorn is tapered in at the top, Ocarina is tapered out at the top, Spitzgedeckt is the nearest thing I know to tapered in and stopped. I should think an open polyphone could be done, but I also think there are some jolly good reasons why it's not been. Chiefly the size and cost of the pipe vis a vis it's effectiveness when compared to a stopped pipe doing the same thing. What I ask is why JC, and anyone subsequently has not hit the compromise of 2 pipes for the 32' octave to allow the notes to go all the way to the bottom and go some way to sorting out the scaling. Such a painfully simple solution.
AJS
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Dear Paul
If you contextualise with the preceding 8 words, I think that clarifies it. I tend to find with Compton's mixtures that it is best to accept them for what they are, not necessarily what it says on the tin. As for whether they work, I find that, in general they do, notwithstanding any self imposed limitations. I think we also need to reveal the spirit of relaxed professionalism amongst people who really know what they are doing. Yes, it's hit and miss, but we don't all understand that in the same context. When you work with real genius, as I would suggest many of the thinkers amongst JC's staff were, then you get to see things in an entirely different way. One day I hope we will wake up to this.
AJS
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I had 2 builders in mind (and knowledge) when replying above. JC was one, and Reiger was the other. Strange bedfellows in one respect, but both knew exactly what they were doing. As I'm sure others here know, the Compton method of creating compound stops was often a hit and miss affair, trying different ranks at different pitches until they found what worked in the building. I can think of one straight away that had 2 ranks drawn from the Open Wood, 2 ranks from the Subbass, one from the Second Diapason and the 3 5/9 was a stopped metal rank on its own, just of the type you describe. They are very effective, except in perhaps the most unkind of dry acoustics, but an effective way of producing 32' reed type tone from an Open Wood, a Bourdon and a bit of something else, and they will shift a fair bit of wind.
Personally, I wish we were a bit less stuffy, and organists were a bit better informed, and then we could specify them more freely.
AJS
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It often seems the case that manual mutations become less and less effective the lower down the compass one goes. The tone ceases to bind; the individual ranks become audible and it starts to sound like a chord rather than a single note.
How do builders avoid this effect in 32' based cornets?
And if they can do it effectively on the pedal, why do they have difficulty with the bottom couple of octaves on the manuals?
See my post above. Also the mistake I hear time and again is that the basses of manual mutations are voiced too loud. You would be amazed at how soft they need to be in both tone and loudness to blend with the harmonics of the 8' bass and not sound like a chord.
AJS
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It has as much to do with the tone of the ranks as the pitch of them, particularly with the 6 2/5 4 4/7 3 5/9. If the ranks are independent, you can also play around with the tuning of them to enhance the affect.
AJS
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Also, not every division has an 8' Open. It's not uncommon to have to set the bearings on a 2' either as it's the only Principal toned stop.
AJS
Anyone know where and which this is?
in General discussion
Posted
I like the cherub creature holding a guitar; carved with an eye to the future or eyes closed to the past, or maybe both?