Contrabombarde
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Posts posted by Contrabombarde
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In one case I was the paid organist and choirmaster, wasn't on the PCC but did chair the worship committee.
In another case I was on the PCC (and actually ending up becoming Treasurer), I was on the worship committee - and was paid for neither.
The primary purpose of_church_music must be the service and worship of God. Therefore at least to me, it seems perfectly reasonable as an organist who is a committed Christian to want to participate fully in the worshipping life of the church, including actively participaring in, as opposed to tolerating through clenched teeth, any so-called "worship committee". Without wishing to open too many cans of worms, I can understand how an organist who does not share the faith of the church that they play in but who has a love of fine choral music might have reservations about the direction some worship committees might be heading, but I also think there is some truth in the maxim "tradition is the living faith of the dead; traditionalism is the dead faith of the living". Put another way, if the musical quality being peddled by the worship committee is so bad, why did someone think it important to have a worship committee to begin with, and what are its objectives? What have we to fear from engaging with them?
Contrabombarde
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Larghetto and Variations in F# minor...
Introduction and Fugue in C sharp minor.....
"A curious feature of his career is his aversion to equal temperament, an aversion he kept for decades after this tuning method had been accepted on the Continent and even in most of England."....from his Wikipedia entry.
Wow, when did they start tuning English organs in equal temperament in the 19th century? SSW was writing at the height of the Victorian era so how were organs of his day tuned? I'd hate to hear how these pieces sound in meantone!
Contrabombarde
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I have once before shared the story of a bride who was almost an hour late even though she lived about two doors down from the church.
Having got through all the wedding music about two times over in my "bumper book of wedding and funeral music" and still no show, I took in a deep breath and started playing some of the funeral music.
At which point she arrived.
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You've got to resepct the technical facility of course, but it's much more than that with Richard Hills. Underpinning it all is an innate musicianship of very high calibre, and if anyone cares to dig, there is another U-tube clip of Richard re-creating the style of one of my theatre organ heroes, Brian Rodwell, who was just the complete all-rounder as pianist, electronic organ specialist, theatre organist and arranger.
Such talent is very rare, and it is especially interesting when it crosses boundaries and genres.
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Some organists, (and others), spend a lifetime trying to get to grips with these beasts, but since the dau they were invented, there have probably never been more than perhaps 20 or 30 absolute masters of them.
I'm delighted to say that Richard Hills is one of them.
MM
Considering that theatre organs were virtually victims of their own success - they were living on borrowed time throughout their shortlived heyday of the 1920s and 1930s since it was inevitable that someone would eventually come up with a means of projecting prerecorded sound into a cinema in synch with the film - it never ceases to surprise me how much of a following they still have both here and across the pond. And they have a technique peculiar to themselves and i would be surprised if there were that many classically trained organists who would feel equally comfortable on a Willis and a Wurlitzer. Last time I tried a theatre organ (a fine Compton) I was utterly clueless as to what was going on all around me...
A 4 unit Rushworth & Draper that I used to play sometimes also had double-touch cancels on all the stop keys (and no way of turning it off IIRC). The problem there was that the 2nd touch springs were far too weak, and it was dangerously easy to try and add, for example, the Great Mixture and cancel the rest of the department (and the same applied to the Sw-Gt coupler!).Tony
Reminds me of a church that I once played at for a wedding - the organ was an utter nigh mare to play because every time you attempted to make any stop changes you'd end up accidently cancelling the entire division, and the pistons weren't working properly either so you couldn't even rely on those.
To make matters worse the bride asked me a couple of days before the wedding if I'd be the official video camera operator too, I don't think she'd quite realised that it's impossible to control an organ - especially one with random auto-cancelling stops - and a video camera simultaneously though I did my best.
After the wedding the churchwarden said to me, "you know, the organ needs a lot of repairs and we're thinking of replacing it with an electronic. But not just any old electronic, we'd go for something good". I told him I didn't think there was such a thing and that I'd always prefer a pipe organ.
On second thoughts though, how dreadful does a pipe organ have to be before you have to concede that an electronic really is the better option?
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A large number of the commoner parts of the repertoire are available digitally, as PDFs and from time to time people sell collections on Ebay. I brought a digital collection with me to Africa and mount my laptop on the busic desk when playing.
The downsides are, 1, small screen size, and 2, twice the number of page turns as you have to "turn" the page after each page, not each second page.
Exactly how you turn has been a challenge. The page up and page down buttons on the laptop are hardly easy to hit in a hurry, so I opted to rig up a mouse to control page turns. But I have found that I hit it at different speeds or strengths depending on where I am in the piece, and getting a consistent "click" after every page is not easy. Thus i night not click hard enough to turn the page, so click again, and then sometimes that causes me to advance two pages forward. Certainly digital music desks take getting used to!
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Bringing the subject back to pipe organs again, but mindful of the earlier discussions on Hauptwerk, I am pondering three questions that maybe someone involved in organ design and building might comment on.
1. Is there a place for sampling organs of particular historical merit for posterity? Obviously Hauptwerk does just that, so we now have a pipe-by-pipe record of the organs of Caen, Trost and Salisbury Cathedral, to name but three. In the awful event of one being lost, is it not useful to have preserved as good a record as current technlogy permits, and one that might help recreate the organ? One is even mindful that the Salisbury organ is (I believe) currently out of action, yet continues to be heard every day in the cathedral, thanks to its digital "twin"...
2. Is there a role for taking a "sampled organ" and hearing it in another venue, for a better understanding of how voicing and acoustics interrelate? Could one imagine a pipe organ builder with a variety of sampled ranks of different scales setting up a Hauptwerk-style installation in a church during the design stage of the instrument, in order to demonstrate how it would sound, and to help select the most appropriate scales and specification before the first pipe had been made?
3. Could anyone contemplate the use of touchscreens as a means of stop control in pipe organs? I know of one instrument, I think of Matthew Copley, that uses illuminated LEDs as stop controls, and one of the joys of organ building is seeing how new innovations can be incorporated into the design of an instrument with many centuries behind it. A touchscreen stop jamb would be an interesting, innovative and inexpensive (a 23 inch touchscreen monitor costs around £300, open-source software interfaces such as j-organ are freely downloadable from the internet) alternative to physical stops.
Contrbombarde
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No disrespect or discourtesy intended, but the subject line of this thread clearly has nothing to do with pipe organs.
I was wondering when we'd get back to real pipe organs again! As previously said, it is discourteous to our hosts to discuss electronic organs in any detail. Hauptwerk is an interesting diversion though - after all, it allows you to experience the exact sound, albeit at CD-level quality, of playing some of the world's finest organs, and one can hardly complain that some producers of sample sets donate a percentage of each sale to the upkeep of the real organ. We happily discuss our favourite recordings of organs on this forum, and at one level Hauptwerk is just a glorified recording, pipe by pipe, of the very same organs. Maybe though we should avoid too much discussion of Hauptwerk, at least until someone samples St Ignatius Loyala!
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Daft as it may sound, one of the very finest key-touches is that found on Wurlitzer Theatre Organs, which coupled to an impressively fast action, make for easy playing. It's just the sequin shoes I can never get used to, and a pedal board that's a tad wider than an RCO one.
MM
So here's a wacky thought experiment. How about building a theatre organ with mechanical action? I'm sure that if pressed someone could build an instrument with suspended action and a chorus of Tibia Clausas instead of Prinzipal 16/8/4/2. But what on earth would it be like to play Chuganooga choo-choo?
Back to reality, I found that especially when the reverb is turned down, my home Johannus was remarkedly intolerant of sloppy phrasing and hasproven to be a better practice instrument than I had imagined was possible.
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One factor in Hauptwerk's success is evidently that you can take it at any level. You could download the free taster version off the internet and hook up a midi keyboard to your laptop. You could - at a price - commission a fully fitted console from specialist companies that will fit Hauptwerk inside just like an Allen comes with the Allen sound generating electronics, a Johannus with Johannus electronics etc. Or somewhere in-between there are companies that will sell you all the bits - keyboards, pedalboard, computer etc and tell you how to put it all together (plus the specific table model you need to pick up from Ikea to mount the keyboards!). Drawstops are evidently a rare luxury; touchscreen monitors are far more versatile and obviously change the appearance of the console whenever you change the "organ" being played. Version 4 is coming out later this year and is supposedly much more beginner-friendly than before.
I'm tempted to try it when I eventually return from my work in Africa to replace my old Johannus toaster that is on permament loan to my church. If on the other hand you prefer the idea of an inexpensive toaster you may well find much greater choice (and lower prices) if you buy from Holland. Even after paying for a British pedalboard and shipping costs I saved a few grand. But in fairness to our hosts I won't mention any suppliers here but if you want more info then feel free to PM me.
Contrabombarde
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Very fine beasts the Taylors are too, though generally confined to churches in and around Leicester. Musically what they might lack in being unashamedly products of the turn of the 19th century they gain in being virtually indestructible workhorses which just keep on going, unlike many electric action or especially electronic organs and are just the job for a church that doesn't "have the money to spend keeping the organ going". Whilst I haven't had the pleasure of playing their ecclesiastical magnum opus at St peter's Leicester, their superb concert organ at the de Montfort Hall received a much-deserved and highly praised restoration to glory a few years back.
That, and St Peter's, and a few other larger instruments are, if not unique, at least unusual, in having tiny, and (IMHO) rather hard-to-read miniture drawstops in a row across the top manual or even across the stop jambs. Why oh why?
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Out of interest, how often is the Grove played, whether in concert or for services? I have twice visited and heard and played the Milton, and whilst I was very impressed by it, I couldn't help feel a tinge of sadness that the Grove was locked up and at least on one occasion was out of action due I think to a blower problem. Does the Abbey make sufficient use of it, or even have the financial means to keep both instruments in top form?
Contrabombarde
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Well, the toddlers did a Nativity play at the service before Christmas and two of the "carols" were "baa baa black sheep" and "twinkle twinkle little star", so it's hardly surprising that many people consider Rudolf and "Little donkey" to be Christmas carols...
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I've been thinking about this. We read so much about how the great organ builders design, build and voice instruments for a particular space. I can imagine an organ built for one place sounding well in another, but this would seem to be a rare fluke, rather than a likely outcome.
Hmmm, reminds me of an ecentric Victorian businessman from Leeds who built an enormous wooden shed in his garden and asked a German organ builder to come up with something to fill it. Said organ was apparently not considered especially noteworthy in its wooden shed, nor was its reputation much enhanced following a transplant a few years later to a church in Harrogate. Only when transplated a second time into the outstanding acoustics of Armley did the Schulze finally achieve the recognition that it deserved...
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I haven't seen many examples of costs of rehousing organs on this thread so far, though plenty of ideas circulating about the relative cost of new pipe and new digital. Do any members have figures that could be shared to help balance the discussion a bit? It always strikes me as a bit of a pity that some lucky churches seem to manage to find hundreds of thousands on a new organ when there are plenty of fine reduncant organs floating around, whilst other churches just go for the digital option. Without wanting to take new business away from our very fne organ builders, I wonder whether rehoused organs are considered often enough in the churches that have recently had brand new instruments installed? Is it really that despite the organs available, none were considered suitable for a transplant? In these eco-aware days, we should all be doing our part to encourage recycling...
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And greetings to all from a very warm and sunny Democratic Republic of Congo, where I am working. Sadly the only organ music for hundreds of miles around is my MP3 collection, but I appreciate this Forum enormously in helping to keep me sane whilst working in a very different part of the world to what most organists will ever experience!
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I must say I tend to play the Guillmant in socks unless it's on a tracker with heavy pedal action (ouch!) for that very reason...
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Some good points raised about ease/difficulty of finding someone to play competently once installed, space saved if digital, inspiration to learn to practice if good instrument, modern worship trends tending to need more flexibility etc.
Whilst continuing to respond to the original thread on costs of pipe v digital, why go for new? How would the cost of rehousing a redundant pipe organ stack up against a digital organ? Obviously careful selection is needed (e.g. many modern churches are heavily carpetted and have pretty dead acoustics) but if an instrument in good working order becomes reduntant, is it that expensive to dismantle, clean and repair, and re-erect?
Contrabombarde
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Well, the $64,000 question remains, as pertinent to this forum as to the Hauptwerk forum:
Whilst the Salisbury cathedral pipe organ is out of action, will they be using the digitilised version of the Salisbury cathedral organ to accompany services? I gather that the organist at Salisbury even has his own four manual console at home that runs Hauptwerk, so it's not too hard to guess what will be on his Christmas present list this year!
Contrabombarde
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Shows how much you know about the atlantic city organ!
OK so here's a thought experiment. If our kind hosts, or indeed any other contemporary major organ builders, were given a blank sheet of paper, an unlimited budget courtesy of a generous billionaire, a space the size of Atlantic City Hall and a brief to design an organ that would fill the space available, what would they come up with? I think there would be three possibilties.
1. something similar in size to the current Atlantic City insrument (though across five manuals, maybe even six but certainly not seven!)
2. something similar in volume but smaller spec and higher pressures (issue: how do you design an organ that will fill such an enormous space. Or is there a size of building beyond which an organ simply can't work as the wind pressures are too great for a musical sound to result?)
3. "you must be barking mad, forget it".
Thoughts?
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The nameplate says Lewis 1865, Willis 1940. There can't be many three manual organs that fit that description. Any more offers before someone writes into the bank to see if they wil settle the mystery?
Contrabombarde
My apologies. I have replayed the video in high definition and here are a couple of screenshots (slightly sharpened by me to enhance the text):
So definitely Lewis 1865, Peter Wells 19X0, most likely 1980 or 1990. Does that help any further? Googling Peter Wells didn't get me anywhere except his Wikipedia page, which has been deleted, nor could I find any Lewis of 1865 that fitted the description. Does noone have any more ideas abou the identify of this instrument?
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Indeed - but nothing to suggest TC Lewis 1865 parentage...
H
The nameplate says Lewis 1865, Willis 1940. There can't be many three manual organs that fit that description. Any more offers before someone writes into the bank to see if they wil settle the mystery?
Contrabombarde
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If you're sitting somewhere that is on show to the congregation and fancy showing off then the Krebs E major toccata and fugue (especially the toccata) is one to beat. His C major prelude and fugue is another great romp, especially the fugue with its deliriously cheerful subject.
Contrabombarde
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But no use as the basis of a console for the pipe organ? Once all the old analogue electronics are out of the way, I would have thought that it has just about everything that is needed - presumably wooden keyboards, KA drawstops and pistons - and with a good builder to refurbish it..... I guess they could save mega bucks. Or could it be that because this console has (shudder) controlled a toaster that it will have to be confined to a skip - or broken up for spares. Seems a waste of perfectly good organ building time to me (and a waste of money!)
How about left jamb for the main specification and right jamb for the Duchy of Lancaster? In any case that's going to be one huge knob.
Interesting to hear about the "fate" of the Makin - I was under the impression that elderly toasters often had quality problems with the material from which they were constructed, not just with their electronics. But it wouldn't surprise me if it's just the innards that are failing if the console itself was built by a reputable pipe organ builder. I wonder if Makins were consulted or considered refurbishing the electronics - though having recently had the misfortune of hearing an Allan which I was assured by the proud organist was around thirty years old but had just had a total digital makeover I wouldn't rate its chances too highly. Frankly I think Compton could have done better with his analogue technology.
The combined specification of the two instruments doesn't seem to lend itself to being controlled by one four manual console, though I expect there would be a few takers for a quality four manual console whether to control an electronic or as a moveable console for a pipe organ. And I would imagine that any modern instrument with solid state action could have a second, midified console attached for very little expense other than changing the names on the stops. Apart from St Paul's Cathedral and Liverpool Anglican Cathedral, are there many other examples of second consoles being added recently?
Failing that I'll keep my eyes open for four manual toasters on Ebay!
Contrbombarde
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A church with a large enough membership will doubtless be considered a spiritual home by Christians of most musical tastes including classical. I used to fortunate enough to assist on the organ at one of HTB's London plants, a fine Victorian building whose congregation had dwindled to a handful of elderly, but faithful and devout Christians who for a number of years prayed that the church would not be allowed to fall into disuse. Their prayers were evidently answered by becoming an HTB "plant", transforming the congregation into one of several hundred (including, I might add, the faithful few who had remained all this time - and I think it's fair to point out that far from "poaching" people from other churches, the congregation grew through evangelism and encouraging new Christians).
At least during the time I was there, the organ, a fine large Walker of romantic era, and reputedly sporting a reed voiced by cavaille-Coll, successfully blended into the modern choruses of the worship band, yet remained a fine accompaniment for hymns and was played at the majority of services. There were enough classical musicians to be able to perform choral music (I still remember a packed-out baptism and confirmation service, during which I accompanied Elgar's "The Spirit of the Lord".) And for good measure to respect those parishioners who felt out of place in anything other than BCP, a few times a year a full 1662 Choral Evensong was mounted.
Whether such an eclectic approach will be adopted in Brighton remains to be seen, but I trust that I will be in good company if I suggest that the Church's mission must be the driver of its music, and not the other way round, and when the Church gets its mission right, other things fall neatly into place. If the church recognises that they have a treasure in, OK not jars of clay, but encased in a row of pedal diapasons, and they encourage diversity and talent within the congregation, then I would feel quite reassured about the future of this magnificent instrument.
As long as they don't wreck the acoustics by carpeting the entire building.
DACs
in General discussion
Posted
Interesting views as always on this thread.
What makes a rebuild "work" or an organbuilder "great"? I suggest partly it's being able to take 2 + 2 and create 5. I can't imagine our kind hosts would feel very enthusiastic if asked to rip out 90% of the innards of St Paul's Cathedral and replace it with an exact replica of Father Smith's instrument in the name of progress.
But mad as that sounds, is it a million miles away from the decision to retune Reading Town Hall and replace the balanced swell pedal with a kickstand (deliberate vehicle there analogy!)?
Part of the skill of the consummate builder is to take something that seems unpromising and turn it into something quite magical. But then that depends on how you define unpromising to begin with. It also depends on how far you think it's reasonable to preserve historicity at all cost.
I wouldn't advocate fitting electropneumatic action or even a blower to the organ of Carisbrooke castle. I don't like the swell pedal at Blenheim Palace, though I'd frown on anyone who installed a balanced pedal. And I don't think any sensible person would add a multichannel combination system with sequencer to replace the four (I think) pistons per manual that it currently has, even though that limits registration changes. In other words, a degree of standardisation is helpful though there is still room for some diversity.
So how "bad" or inflexible does an organ have to be before it's appropriate to invite a rebuild taking it well beyond its original capacity? What determines if a particular instrument merits historical preservation without regards to musical lfexibility? Why do we love that five manual monster at St Pauls if once upon a time a 27 stop three manual with hitch-down pedals was considered adequate for the building? Maybe, because Father Willis managed to create something wonderful out of what materials he had available from his predecessor?
Of course, there are times and seasons too. I expect twenty years ago many more people with an ageing and failing Compton extension organ would have been tempted to throw it out. I was amazed how much I found I liked the organ of Derby Cathedral when I got to play it a few years ago, imagining it to be "just another old extension organ". Now we are perhaps more tolerant of styles that a generation ago would have been shunned. I think also of the old 3 manual norman and Beard at a church I used to play at; falling to pieces and generally unloved, I had little time for it. Until that is, a mile up the road, Manders did a spectacular restoration of, you guessed it, an untouched N&B of similar size and vintage, at which point I really appreciated what my own instrument had once been capable of that much more.
I don't have Hauptwerk but have been following this "development" with interest. And I am struck by the wide range of examples of home practice instruments that people have built. Some go for brawns and the ability to play many different fine organs. Others want consoles with short pedals, 49 note manuals and are content to install a small Silberman sample set with short compass that limits your choice of repertoire and in which playing aids are non-existent. If you ever go down that route yourself, which option would you pick?