ajt
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Posts posted by ajt
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I realise that this is sensitive, but what's the current ranking of electronics do people think? Are Viscount and similar multi-produced ones to be avoided altogether? I am thinking that for home use, (three manual) a Wyvern or Phoenix would be good but what about Makin/Johannus? Does anyone have recent experience of some of these? I'm particularly interested in Phoenix - they seem to represent good value for money. Not sure if I've got the hang of producing a link to this huge 5-manual Wyvern but it's worth a look. If the link doesn't function, go to Anthony Bogdan in google.
Martin.
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and so is born a whole new chapter: "The Revenge!" Everyone own up: how many have ever so slightly raised response notes a tone. Or Two. Or, for the real meanies, three? Jenny
I've put 'em down in the hope that the cantor will do his usual trick of going up a 3rd (ish)...
Revenge... I was due to play for a friends' wedding a couple of years ago, on a lovely 3m Hill... They'd insisted they wanted a CD to go out to. Until the night before, when the announced they wanted Widor V (which I can't really play - I just busk the first and last pages). I was booked in for practice the morning of the wedding, so thought that would be fine for an "artistic impression" of the piece.
Anyway, I turn up at the church, to be met by the caterer (reception in church), "'scuse me, mate, 'ow many are comin' to this like, and what time, and when do me ingredients arrive". I spent the whole ****ing morning sorting out the reception. Bloody marvellous. Finally I get, literally, 5 minutes on the organ, before the choir turn up. As I'm rattling through the Widor, the vicar comes up and says "Can you play it a bit quieter at the end of the service, please, as the congregation won't be able to talk over it..." Talk over it? Talk over it! Talk over it, my xxxx. Came to the service, and, having been holding back all the great reeds for the final passage in rehearsal, I thought bollocks to taste, and just pulled out everything. The couple loved it.
Or, at a former church with a toaster, when a particular git of a visiting clergyman complained that the organ was far too loud the last time he came (because the speaker installation faces the clergy stall directly, and doesn't speak very well down the church, you have to keep the revs up), we used the Gt Dulciana alone for the first 2 hymns. On announcing the 3rd hymn we got "As this is one of my favourites, I wonder if the organist would mind letting rip with this one?". Response: Trompette en Chamade and Pedal Trombone only. (Chamade on a Toaster = the worst noise imaginable. Think of a hundred babies screaming)
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Many years ago, I would often check the venue to make sure that the tuners were there and doing their job.
What checks are made by the organ builders that extended tea and lunch breaks are not being taken, and that the client is getting value for money.?
Is it possible that a tuning job, which would normally take a day could be extended to two days to benefit the Company ?
Colin Richell.
I think you can have "rogues" in any trade - I would never accuse any of the organ builders I know of questionable practices like that ; you have to have some trust and assume that the people you're doing with have integrity. Indeed, most of the people I've dealt with in the organ world have integrity in abundance.
This may seem to contradict what I've been saying on this thread, but I don't believe it does - the practice of charging for hours "not worked" (i.e. paying from the moment the tuner leaves his house) is not down out of malice or an intent to rip people off, it's done because the business practices of much of the organ building/tuning world are stuck in another age.
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It is perfectly possible I am missing your point David : an alternative explanation is that I am just not looking at the scene from the same viewpoint as you are. My understanding of your basic point is that it amounts to a rip-off to be charged workshop rates / skilled work rates for travelling time. My point is that this is not the correct viewpoint from which to look at the situation since viewing the situation from this standpoint is virtually guaranteed to produce the conclusion that fleecing is in progress.
That's partly my viewpoint, but really paying the costs isn't my major beef - the cost will get passed onto the client somehow - it's the "contract us for a day's work, but we'll only be there between 11 and 3, and we have to have lunch and a cuppa, then we'll say we didn't have time to sort xx out" attitude that really gets my goat.
[various edits] And that twaddle about paying for a lifetime's expertise... That is the same in any service you engage. A carpenter, a plumber, etc. I don't pay them by the hour from the moment they leave the house. Hell, even my services are the result of a large investment in training and experience. I don't charge my hourly rate for the hours 9-11 and then not turn up to 11, and leave at 3. If I did, I'd be charging £2000 for 4 hours work.
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Adrian, nothing is simple in organ building, tuning or dealing with churches - you can see why I am glad I am retired!
FF
I don't see how organ building is any different from any other trade, except that you're usually dealing with the most parsimonious clients you could think of, who usually create their own problems! -
I think that I have pressed some wrong butrtons some how.
No, you've not pressed wrong buttons - I for one am not wound up about this ; I'm rather enjoying the discussion
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why should any church/congregation even begin to think it has some sort of entitlement to professional services at free or subsidsed rates ? If someone is prepared to provide them, that is wonderful but it is surely a bonus: not a right or legitimate expectation? I do not see why a church has any more reason to expect subsidised or preferential rates for work on the organ than for work on the roof.
I completely agree - I wasn't saying that it was "right", but that the economic facts are that churches are increasingly skinflint.
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No problem!
A can of chemical mace on the organ console, and a 4ft wooden flute would be enough to deter most.
Actually, I came very close to a knife (not for the first time, I must add, but that's a whole other story) whilst practising (a rare event) at Lyndhurst.
The "organ" is stuck at the end of the choir stalls, such that the only way out is to either climb over stalls or to walk down the whole length.
This particular day, there's a chap who comes up and starts chatting to me whilst I'm playing. But the conversation makes no sense whatsoever, I can't remember the details, but if you imagine that I said "good afternoon" and he replied with "Shepherds' Pie", you get the idea.
Anyway, I quickly spotted he was a lump of mashed potato short of his shepherds' pie, and tried to get away in a convenient interval whilst he wandered off to stare intently, rocking backwards and forwards, at a chunk of brickwork. Unfortunately, I didn't manage to get my shoes back on before he'd come and stood at the end of the choir stalls, blocking me.
He started talking to me about his time in the penguin colony or whatever, and I'm making polite noises, trying to manoeuvre past to escape. At which point I notice he's holding a very large carving knife - one of those awful "The World's Sharpest Knife" things that look like they were invented by a particularly psycho ex-Marine, designed for removing all vital organs with a single flick of the wrist - just casually patting it against his leg.
Fortunately, after 45 minutes (no joke) of talking about the Martian cricket team, the poor guy's nasal haeomorrhoids and the fact that he used to be a film star until the penguins started taking all his work, he just wandered off.
I then had to walk past the chunk of brick he'd been staring it - only to find a very smelly yellow puddle to clear up.
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come from further away. By the way, as a professional musician based in London, I will expect to be paid travel expenses and an element to cover travel time if I am booked to do a concert out-of-town
Quite - travel "expenses". Not your full professional hourly rate. BIG difference. That is my bug bear. Why should I, as a "church" (well, not me personally, although I am quite wide, there's probably room for a pew or two), pay for something I'm not getting?
Some (and only one of the 3 I've used in my last couple of jobs), still charge a full hourly rate from the moment they leave their house. If I encounter someone like that, I'll either negotiate to try to reach a different agreement - e.g. we'll pay travelling expenses/mileage, but not a working rate, or switch to someone that doesn't do that.
Churches are always trying to get something for nothing, and when they do actually have to pay for something, they expect to get what they pay for. Anyone who wants to do work in a church, and expects to get paid for work they're NOT doing, really needs to wake up.
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This forum is quickly beginning to show the many problematic facets of this subject. A Company employee's day might well start at eight when he commences working for his Company by getting into his car to go tuning and will expect to be paid for leaving his house (or the factory if is works from there and will have clocked on at 8) at that time. His paid time does not start from his arrival at the church as that is not his place of employment, nor are the church his employers.
If your company charges the same for your consaltancy fee wich starts at 9 am be it Southampton or Stockholm then who absorbs your travelling time and costs. Do you mean that you have to get yourself to Stockholm in your own time and at your own expense to be there by 9 am?
FF
I think it's perfectly reasonable for the tuner's employer to pay him from the time at which he leaves the house/factory, but I do not expect to a) be told by his employer that the church is paying him for that travel time,
pay for a "day's work" which is in actual fact a day's work less travelling.If I were being sent to Stockholm to a "day's work", then I would, and have, arrive the night before, stay in a hotel and be at the client at the commencement of their working day, and leave either when the client is satisifed that I have resolved their problem (I typically get sent out as a problem solving consultant), or at the end of their working day (or later!).
Ok, in my world, the $$$ are higher, hence my company will pay for me to stay in a hotel in Sweden - they're still charging a lot of money for my services, so there's room for manoeuvre. The organ world is not like that. But... tuners don't *have* to travel a great distance, really, assuming that the bigger firms have regional reps, and the smaller firms stay "in area" - if the cost of getting the tuner to site is too high, then reflect that in the quote.
I understand where you're coming from, Frank, but I really don't see that this area is problematic at all - it's a practice that's stuck in Victorian times.
Churches usually pay for a day's work - that should mean a day's work. Why should we pay for 2-4 hours of work that aren't actually being done? I can understand paying mileage or such like, but not an actual working rate. The cardinal sin, if the tuner is starting their "day's work" from the minute they get in the car, is to say in the tuning book "Unable to deal with due to lack of time" - if they arrive at 11 and leave at 3, this makes me *very* angry.
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This also raises the problem of how long a 1/2 day or full day tuning is. Does it include travelling time to the church?
This is one of my bug bears. In the "real world", if you pay someone to do a job based on a daily rate, their day is expected to be 9-5. Not "You pay us from 9, which is when we'll leave the house". Every other business in the world expects to get the full day's work that they pay for, and NOT to pay travelling expenses. If my company is asked by a customer to send me out for a day's consulting, then the client pays the same, regardless of whether I'm going to Inverness, Southampton or Stockholm. They also expect me to turn up at 9. In other words, if they pay for a day's work, they expect to get a day's work. Not a day minus travel time.
There are still organ maintainers out there that persist in this stupid practice - when will they come into the 20th century, let alone the 21st?
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I thought this may be an interesting topic - how many of the participants on this forum are not Christians or church-goers but who appreciate the organ and/or sacred music?
I myself am no longer a Christian but can still sit and listen to such pieces as Stainer's Crucifixion or similar. My love of the organ came from hearing the instrument at my local church (St. Mary's, Kingswinford, anyone familiar with it?) during services I attended as a child and in my early teens.
I would love to hear the stories of how people came to know and love the organ also.
I'm a committed atheist, but firmly into religion and sprituality, which probably sounds odd to anyone else. I don't get anything out of it myself, but I do believe in create a spiritual atmosphere for others to worship in - that is what I see as my job. I guess you could also say I have religion but not faith.
And yes, I vaguely recall singing in a church in Kingswinford, but not sure if it's that one - I was at school in Wolverhampton ; we got out and around a fair bit...
I got into the organ and all things church music when I was at Ripon, started having lessons with Robert Marsh on the cathedral organ aged 11/12.
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Do Diocesan Organ Advisors come under any appraisal system?
FF
Unlikely. For that matter, do churchwardens or vicars?
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It is, though.
Imagine anyone doing anything like that today? No chance!
There are not enough eccentrics around.....
if anyone knows better, please post evidence here.
This was only 6 years ago! These same guys had a blow up doll, called 'Phyllis (you can work out what it was short for), which they put inside various members of clergy and vicar choral's robe cupboard - imagine the dean being surprised by a 5ft inflatable woman leaping out at him, lips pursed, ready for action! She was last seen run up the cathedral flagpole.
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A friend of mine was a choral scholar at a cathedral that shall remain nameless.
One evening after a few jars and a curry, a number of the choral scholars and others decided to have a swim in the school pool on the way back to the house... For some unknown reason, someone decided to take a picture of all these lads, tackle out, as it were.
They had a copy printed off and slipped inside page 2 of the vicar who was precenting's (not the precentor) copy of the Elizabethan Responses...
The intonation "Praise ye the Lord" was indeed preceeded by much choking and surprise.
End of the service, the whole choir processes back to the vestry, said clergyman rips off his dog collar, says "b**tard, b**tard, b**tard" in a stern voice at each of the possible culprits, put his collar back on sharpish, bows his head and says "Let us pray"...
Hmm, doesn't sound so funny now I've written down!
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For information, the ones I play most often are Norwich and Ripon.
Who's playing on the Ripoon one? [edit - found the answer : Andrew Bryden ]
I have the Lichfield one (Lumsden), and very much enjoy it .
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I know many "organs" that sound worse than this...
Apart from the completely over the top head movements, and the fact that I just don't like the piece, I thought this wasn't bad...
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I don't recognise the noble pile, but would assume from the reference to the tower that it's Scented Mum's Brie Cathedral.
It is, yes.
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Apologies if this has been posted before...
Shows how suggestion can make indistinct hymn diction look very silly...
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But an appraisal system is not primarily intended to produce feedback, helpful or otherwise.
You mean appraisal systems in your experience? "Appraisal system" is just two words, not a set in stone process the same the world over - it can be whatever you make it, good or bad.
I think we're all leaping on the negative connotations of the phrase. I actually really enjoy appraisals in the work place - it gives me a chance to not only hear about the things I do well, but also to talk about what I can do better. I can also air my frustrations about anything I like, and often get stuff done about it.
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I share that anger. Whilst there may be a case for formal appraisals in the case of full-time professional organists, such as cathedral musicians, it cannot be appropriate for those who, week by week, year by year, give of their time and skills for a miserable £1,800 per annum or whatever, most of them in a honest and humble belief in the 'mission of music' in the worship of Almighty God.
But surely there must be some feedback system, otherwise we will never grow in our roles?
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I think he looked on it more as a feather in his cap and was able to take pleasure in the fact that the lad was obtaining a musical experience and education far in excess of what he himself could have offered.
I think that's by far the healthiest way of looking at it.
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I am also firmly of the opinion that at the time of your own appointment, and that of the Churchwarden, better men could not be found.
Well, given that well over a year later they still don't have a replacement...
Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!If you can tell me what my job title means, then you're doing better than I am! "Mission Critical Escalation Consultant" - now there's buzzword bingo for you!
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mission critical
Good game of buzzword bingo there, MM...
Is it now I mention that my job title includes the words "Mission Critical" ?
and so is born a whole new chapter: "The Revenge!" Everyone own up: how many have ever so slightly raised response notes a tone. Or Two. Or, for the real meanies, three? 
I don't see how organ building is any different from any other trade, except that you're usually dealing with the most parsimonious clients you could think of, who usually create their own problems!
pay for a "day's work" which is in actual fact a day's work less travelling.
Electronics
in General discussion
Posted
Fair enough - being a proper geek, I still argue that that 640MB is still not generating power - it's storage. The tone generation being done by the card using the stored sample. It matters not - just me being pedantic
I'm assuming that you (bombarde32) and I have met fairly recently ?