SomeChap
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Posts posted by SomeChap
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... hmm, I'm even wondering, assuming the wifi connection carries a MIDI-compatible data protocol, whether pipe organs might start to be played on a regular basis from arbitrary consumer MIDI controllers. Perhaps organ builders (or even third parties) could provide cheap portable wireless control boards for stops / combinations, which you simply prop up next to your clavinova?
You could even integrate a score/pdf reader app on your tablet computer (OK, iPad!), having hot-spots in the score which link directly to registration changes when tapped, set up offline and ready to use when you get to church.
I'm not suggesting the traditional console's days are numbered, but as e-books complement paper editions, so diverging control paradigms could help the organ evolve, and allow non-organists to play organs much more easily.
Sorry, I've gone off-topic ...
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On 13/08/2019 at 09:03, bam said:
[...] 'luminous console' [...] a number of the lamps had failed and replacements are apparently very difficult to source, so LEDs are surely a sensible update.
Yes, surely JC would have used them if they'd been available; they're cheap, easy to source, come in a range of shades of white and brightness, energy efficient and (above all) very reliable.
I wonder, with LEDs for stop indicators and music-desk lighting, cheap low-power embedded computers for key/stop/whatever control and wifi for data transfer, is the truly wireless, battery-powered console a realistic possibility now?
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Hmm, the last posting that was primarily about Notre Dame was from last Thursday! We are a discursive lot!
Thanks to SlovOrg for the link to M Cattiaux's facebook page.
Re. the C-C console and mechanism: as I understand it, the stop-list has changed a lot since it was last in use (addition of 18-stop Resonance Expressive, loss of Recit chorus work, addition of Recit classique, loss of G-O Bassons (did they go to the Resonance?), Transfer of Clicquot Trompettes 16,8,4 from Solo to G-O (replaced by mixture-work), addition of chamades duplexed all over the place etc.), so it would definitely need re-modelling to a greater or lesser extent. The key actions are presumably now electro-pneumatic (though presumably the transmission between the console and the organ could in theory be down-graded from fancy-pants electronic to plain old direct electric) and the stop action is presumably electro-magnetic, so C-C's mechanism would all need to be replaced inside the console. It might therefore not make much sense to re-instate the C-C playing aids. Also looking at this picture there doesn't seem to be much room for thumb pistons between the keyboards - surely they would be missed!
Basically you'd be rebuilding the console from scratch, but keeping the keys and the external woodwork. My feeling is that this is more of an act of historic vandalism than keeping the C-C console where it is now. I would guess that something along these lines was the reason why the old console wasn't recommissioned in 2012 when the all-new flashy modern console was built (which I rather like btw!).
I wonder why they don't have a second console downstairs like at St-Eustache? It's surely perfectly possible technically? As it is, the organists have use the self-recording features in order to hear the organ from downstairs.
I speak in the present tense as if the organ were still in use today! We can dream ...
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Many thanks to all for updates. It makes sense for there to be an English language source of the latest news on this organ, and this might as well be it.
Does M Cattiaux 'do' social media?
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A similar but more detailed update from Vincent Dubois: https://www.lalettredumusicien.fr/s/articles/6024_0_vincent-dubois-le-grand-orgue-de-notre-dame-de-paris-est-un-miracule
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And according to europe1.fr :
Under the disemboweled roof of Notre-Dame de Paris were hundreds of masterful, historical and priceless works. In what state are they today, after the terrible fire that devastated the cathedral on Monday night? Particularly the huge Grand Organ, with some pipes dating back to the 15th century. In exclusive Europe 1 Tuesday, Laurent Prades, steward of the interior heritage of Notre-Dame de Paris, has provided reassuring information.
"The big organ was not touched at all except that it was very dusty, but it did not take a single drop of water. It took soot and dust, so it is totally unusable, but nothing has burned, nothing has melted, "he assures Europe 1. As for the second organ, used daily and located in the choir, "it was copiously watered (by the fire hoses), to preserve the 18th century choir stalls that are just below."
Today, with firefighters, architects and curators, M Prades is carrying out a comprehensive survey in the devastated building "to note the major architectural disorders, the things that must be stored away in the coming hours in case of further collapse".
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There was an interview with Johann Vexo (who was playing the organ when the fire broke out) on the Radio 4 Today programme this morning. You can listen here (starting about 2h 10 mins in): https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m00045kf
Quick transcription because the recording will drop off the bbc website before long; apologies for typos:
Johann Vexo was in the cathedral when the fire broke out. He was playing for Mass at 6:15pm. During the gospel the fire alarm rang, and everyone wondered what it was, as it was the first time they'd heard it. JV stayed 20 mins and the cathedral was empty, and didn't see any fire or smoke until he got home, through his window. He then went back, but is was too terrible to watch and he couldn't stay more than a few minutes. He had his colleagues on the phone and they felt the same. There is no official information on the state of the organ, it's too early. The building is very weak. As far as they know this morning the main organ might be preserved but 'we have to speak very wisely'. He describes the grand organ as 'the most famous instrument in the world; it was absolutely stunning, gorgeous. We dont have any words to describe it because it was just a wonderful experience every time. Even when we knew the organ well, every time we came back it was such a privilege to play. We don't know what will happen in the coming weeks, it's impossible to know when we might play one of them again.'
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An interior view from (very approximately) an hour ago. I think there is some hope, but only time will tell. Kyrie Eleison.
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According to the church website, installation started a fortnight ago (see time-lapse video!).
The church has christened the organ 'Anna Magdalena', which I think is a lovely touch. I wonder, are any other organs of members' acquaintance given names, like boats are? I've never come across the idea before.
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Thanks for posting; this is fun and certain corners do sound like Bach. It looks to me like they've not told it about 'the rules' at all - parallel fifths, smooth part writing etc; clearly they've just let the machine do its thing and hoover up the training set without supervising it. I like how open-minded it is though; I let it have several goes at the first line of Eisenach and although every try had something awful in it, it came up with certain perfectly viable harmonies I'd never thought of before. I can see it actually being useful for that when re-harmonising hymn last verses!
I know google are evil, but they are bloomin' clever too.
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Some more Hurford for Ash Wednesday; I've just heard this piece played in St Paul's Cathedral.
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<fetches popcorn>
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What a wonderful, idiosyncratic and visionary project! Best wishes to the Bass family; they are going to have something really special when it's all done. I've only had 2 mins to skim their website but will have a proper look later and will watch with interest. Do ping us here with any updates.
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Thank you for the inside information about Nottingham, Philip. I do apologise if my enthusiasm for the new combinations at Trinity Cambridge (unintentionally) implied a criticism of the music programme at Nottingham (or at Oundle); I hear nothing but good things about it. No doubt the Marcussen is difficult to work with as you describe in detail, not least because of its position in the building.I did mean it when I said that the Marcusen was an interesting comparison to the recently-enhanced Metzler at Trinity; as a generation of organists we inherit a stock of often excellent but difficult instruments from the late twentieth century and I don't blame anyone for finding a creative solution to their custodianship. My intention was to express support for Trinity's approach of making their great but difficult organ viable for perhaps another decade or so.
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The Nottingham Marcussen is an interesting comparison; it has also been used for a wide range of choral repertoire sung by an excellent mixed adult choir. Like the Metzler, it has no playing aids. It also (don't forget) has a 8' string stop on the 4' Brustwerk, which has folding doors and a 16' reed (albeit a fractional length one); that Brustwerk is as close to a Swell as you can get in that style and format.
In recent years most choral services in Nottingham PC have been accompanied on a big 4-manual toaster (bristling with pistons I presume), not on the Marcussen. The Oundle Frobenius was also being supplemented by an electronic for accompanimental use when I was last there about 10 years ago. Are there others?
Thank goodness for the new pistons at Trinity!
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Re. the Hannover export, to save anyone else digging around for info, it's a 1902 Forster & Andrews from Llandudno - NPOR N11696 - although kropf's link says it was originally for St Andrews Derby?
NPOR says the church closed and the organ was sold to its new home for £6000. I imagine its restoration cost significantly more!
It's gained a few stops (on new chests) - a Great Mixture IV and 4' Flute, Choir Tuba (new wind supply) and Pedal Trombone; the kropf's Huefken link says the action is 'rein mechanisch' but NPOR says TP. Pipes have been lengthened to lower the pitch to ~concert.
To my eyes looks much smarter in its new home and has a much better position on a west gallery in a stone vaulted nave, and no doubt it now has a much better acoustic to speak into. What's not to like (except that we Brits will soon need a visa to go and play it but don't get me started!)?
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ETA: Ps. there's a biggish 3-manual 1961 Schuke at the other end of the Nazarethkirche. Quite a play-ground! https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazarethkirche_(Hannover)
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The point made about long-term aural dissatisfaction with digitals (as opposed to the short demonstration in the video) is interesting. If it were a significant factor then we might expect there to be a long-term trend of lots of electronics being replaced with pipe organs about twenty years after their installation (sufficient time for everyone to be fed up with the flat 'plastic', mushy sound, and for the people whose decision it was to install the digital to have moved on). Is this observable on more than an anecdotal level?
The lecture in the video takes a purely economic perspective in discussing pipe vs electronic; this fails to take into account of the knock-on effects of installing an electronic - most significantly that many organists would rather not play them and so won't apply for the organist's job at that church when a vacancy arises. Thus the music programme of the church is endangered in the long term; the electronic implies (to some highly relevant people at least) that the church doesn't really care about music very much.
(The video doesn't seem to contain the whole lecture so maybe other points were originally addressed but edited out?)
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Harlton and Brundish are both very much on my 'must get to' lists. Brundish is so clever in converting a pipe-rack into a simple but presentable organ case. I think more places would do well to emulate this; our churches would become more attractive places for it.
How lucky Harlton were in having all the right elements in place to turn their tiny octopod into a splendid 3-man: that case-work, the pipework from Haslingfield and Little St Mary's Cambridge, excellent advice from Timothy Byram-Wigfield, a bequest from a music-loving church-warden, an open mind on where to put the organ, space under the west tower and so on. They have ended up with what looks like a splendid traditional English organ, based on an extremely frugal approach to design and use of existing material; I'd love to play it one of these days.
Nothing new from me this time; I propose we indulge Mr Drinkell a few modern organs this once, especially as they are out-of-the way, and Roger Pulham's and Peter Bumstead's work deserve more prominence IMO.
[Correction: it looks like the Brundish organ is actually entirely new?]
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I'm beginning to lose track but I don't think anyone's mentioned the Assumption in Redenhall yet. I'm not sure I find it beautiful exactly (not curvaceous enough for me!) but it's smart for a UK parish organ, properly encased and free-standing and commands the west end of the Nave rather well. Npor notes that it was brought from London (Holdich, 1842) on 12 horses, a reminder that this must be one of the last generation of pre-industrial (ie pre-romantic) organs built in England?
I quite like the faces of the side tower corbels; they remind me of something out of Jim Henson's Labrynth.
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... ach, but I was forgetting the dining room at Kingston Lacy
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Thanks as always to David Drinkell and others for showcasing the best of rural Anglophone organ heritage. Three more I remembered:
Hatfield house contains two stunning organ cases, one in the chapel:
... and (to my eye) an even finer one in (I believe) the summer drawing room
In a similar vein there is also the early Harrison at Castle Howard
(apologies for low resolution photo of the latter)
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There's a nice one in Capel St Mary, Suffolk. The rather lovely facade contains a little-altered Fr Willis
In other news, I've been looking (without luck) for online pics of the spectacular Joseph Casson masterpiece in Thorpe Malsor. Visually it's not my cup of tea personally, and a pipe rack rather than a proper case, but if you like decorated front pipes you will like this one! My best effort is an article on Paul Hale's website but you'll have to click through to the pdf I'm afraid; it might just be worth it though!
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Dr Drinkell has given us so many gems on this thread that we must forgive the sadly ineligible 2004 Harrison and the 1990s Lammermuir (both of which are great, but modern and therefore simply expected to have decent cases!).
Diversions to any Anglophone countries are of course allowed.
One more from me that's tantalisingly close to being beautiful is Milton Abbey in Dorset, which would be a stunner if some kind person gave money to finish off the tower cornices and complete the panelling around the sides and back. I think it counts as off the beaten track, as it's in a small village in the countryside:
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FWIW I didn't bother putting in NPOR links previously because I felt this thread was about the cases really, not the organs. No intention to upset anyone!
A few more I've stumbled across by chance in the last few days:
Shoreham, Ss Peter and Paul - another parish organ in an historic chair case, this time the Shrider / Jordan from Westminster Abbey:
Chawton, St Nicholas - this one just contains a toaster nowadays so not much point NPOR linking
... and how could I forget St Mary's, Finedon?
Firenze, Santa Maria del Fiore
in The Organ
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Is Florence Cathedral's the most impossible reverberation in the world? I read somewhere it's about 20 seconds - certainly I remember the building just never fell silent during a service when I was there.
Mascioni did a major rebuild in 2017 and I found their solution interesting (if perhaps not surprising) given the ocean of reverberation. There are eight manual divisions in six different locations around the dome, and four consoles!
- NE segment of the dome = Great Organ (and main pedal organ, I think)
- SE segment of the dome = Swell Organ
- On wheels = Positive Organ (with its own pedal stops) (added 1990)
- S of the dome at floor level = Choir Organ (with its own pedal stops) (c. 1970?)
- N transept = 'Chapel Great' (with its own pedal stops)
- N transept = 'Chapel Swell'
- S transept = 'Echo Great' (with its own pedal stops) (added 2017)
- S transept = 'Echo Swell' (2017)
It seems the transepts are used as separate liturgical spaces so it seems to make sense for each to have its own organ.
The five-manual and four-manual consoles control the whole lot (don't know why you need both); a 3-man console in the N transept controls the chapel organ plus the Great Organ, and a 2-man console in the S transept controls the Echo organ and the Swell organ.
Phew! Anyone heard it? There's an impromptu demo here (terrible audio): link (youtube) - and a verbal description here which I've used as a basis for this post, though my Italian is far from reliable: link (youtube)