ptindall
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Posts posted by ptindall
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''and work against the interests of the communities in which organs may exist to serve an evolving purpose.'The problem here is that the 'interests of the communities' involve, for instance, the attitude of most Baptist churches and the NHS, which want to throw out all the organs, good, bad or indifferent. And there are similar feelings in the Church of England in many places, for instance Emmanuel Church Loughborough, an organ widely regarded as one of the best in the area.
'A traditionalist at heart, I am nevertheless very conscious that many British instruments are the sum of their alterations over the years,'
And some aren't. So how are we supposed to preserve either sort from random alteration without controls?
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'the Willis at St David's, Newtown, further up the Severn'
Oh dear. 'sold off for scrap.? I don't know how much it had been altered (NPOR is pretty garbled), but it was perhaps Willis's first substantial organ apart from Gloucester, and was opened in September 1847.
I spoke to the people with the house inside Christ Church Welshpool a few years ago, and they were very pleasant, and wanted to keep the organ and use it perhaps for concerts.
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Mission Action Plan needn't be about carpets and canned music. I think this is an important misconception to lay to rest. I personally believe it has a lot more to do with an institution tacitly accepting that it went the wrong way in recent years, and devising a realistic and useful strategy for assessing how to enhance its own relevance to the community in all sorts of ways - as bringer of comfort, as place of learning, as concert venue and in terms of hospitality. This is made all the more important in light of the big pointy job up the other end of the high street. An AM congregation of 250 or so against that sort of competition suggests to me that they are doing all the right things, and happily doing so without dumbing down.
I wish I had your confidence...
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Although I don't think I've ever actually heard the organ or attended a service there, I have been in the church a number of times (years ago I had a girlfriend who lived very nearby at Fisherton Island, not to mention many SCF's) and I've always got the impression that they took their musical tradition very seriously, with ambitious music lists and an organist who seemed to have been there a long time. I think he had initials GS or something like that.
Malcolm
Well, they've now had three organists since 2000, and are spending a lot of time devising a Mission Action Plan. In practice this will mean thinking up ways to spoil what is still a very attractive church, full of important furnishings.
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Actually, the Sheffield Cathedral blog dated 1 December 2010 still says that they intend to install 'a historic french organ' from 'a local authority'. I find it hard to believe this will happen, though. What cathedral organist would be willing to be constrained by the limitations of such an instrument? No 32 foot reed, no tuba, no setter, 56 note manuals, no detached nave section.
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Common Sense was applied at Llandaff in 1898, when the 'superb Gray and Davison' was slung out.
Thank goodness there was no 'outbreak of Common Sense' in Usk in 1930, or 1950, or 1980, or indeed in 2006.
Paul
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Bradford Cathedral were very good at wasting money until recently. The Nave Organ was just that; a separate organ playable from the main console, with a nice low pressure chamade and a Pedal stop or two. It wasn't that it no longer served a function in a difficult acoustic, because they still have an electronic substitute there, but a rather nice H,N & B Nave Organ, with a modern and very attractive case, was simply removed because the four stilts on which it stood got in the way of exhibitions and presentations.
All this (and a lot more), brought the cathedral to near financial ruin, with a burden of considerable debt and nothing to show for it.
I haven't checked when the Nave Organ was discarded, (probably around 2000 or so), but as it only went in during the 1960's, the shelf-life was distinctly limited. 35 years or so sounds about right.
MM
You would not believe the laziness, the incompetence and the general uselessness of the Diocese of Bradford and its officials when we were trying to extract a redundant organ from them before someone burnt it down or stole all the metal pipework. It's hardly a surprise that they are now pretty well bankrupt.
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Anyone know why Holmer Church gave up the organ and whether any replacement has been installed or is planned? Herefordshire isn't exactly blessed with many fine instruments as it is!
Because they could.
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I have just been told that E.H. (John) Warrell died on Tuesday morning, aged 95. He was for many years organist of King's College London and of Southwark Cathedral 1968-76, and was organist of St Paul's, Deptford until this year...
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Hi
You can't blame Compton (and certain other firms) for seeing and responding to the ever-present market for budget price organs. I suspect that's why Compton developed their electronic add-ons as a stand-alone instrument. The market still exists - these days it's, in the main, filled by the cheaper end of the digital organ spectrum. Prioer to WW2 it was often populated with larger 2mp reed organs.
Every Blessing
Tony
Well, you can if they turn out not to be budget-priced in the long run. Not that this applies to Compton, of course, whose instruments seem to have lasted rather well, on the whole.
Paul
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How splendid. I'm sure that William will give you very good and appropriate advice.
Wow - a little less than 100 regular worshippers in a community of 300...your Vicar must be quite something!
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I found an organ pipe in the gutter outside Christ Church Woburn Square....
Hill organ and Church now demolished.
Attempts were made to find a new home for it: nowhere would take it. Same story for St Mary, Nottingham (Walker 1916), Preston Public Hall (Wilkinson 1882), Charterhouse School Chapel (Schulze). St George Hulme (Renn 1829).
That just covers a few instruments where enormous efforts and publicity went into rescue efforts. Salutory for the rest.
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Google 'St Patrick Soho newsletter' you will find material on the organ in 2006. The latest (2009) still expresses an intent to restore it. Th NPOR entry is a complete muddle ( different sources mixed together ). I believe that there is sufficient Gray material for a useful restoration, and that's what the HOC was awarded for. There are only 2 manuals at the moment, though.
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One worry I have about pipe organs is my - perhaps inaccurate - understanding from a very recent magazine is that whilst BIOS happily gives out certificates of importance to church organs these certificates have no legal or ecclesiastical status whatsoever. I hope I have misunderstood but I rather fear not. Any comments about this, please?
The point is, at least an attempt is being made to raise awareness of the value of these instruments, about which the vast majority of clergy and congregations are completely ignorant.
As Mr Kemp must know, being a BIOS member, the council of BIOS has for decades been trying to persuade the authorities, especially English Heritage, that there should be statutory protection for organs in this country as there is in many others, so far without success.
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I thought the organ in the parish church in the area of the Duke of Chandos's estate just south of Stanmore on the Jubilee line was one that Handel often played. Marvellous Baroque church. In one of his TV series Paul Dinski went there and played it. I've been in the church a couple of times and the people from the parish who "watch" are always very pleasant. Hideous chapel at the side with family monuments.
Malcolm
The Duke of Chandos had several organs. There was a private chapel at Cannons as well as St Lawrence, Little Stanmore. When the house was demolished in the 1740s Lord Foley bought extensive decorative work for the church at Great Witley, including, presumably, the organ case. The Gosport organ came from Cannons in 1748. The Little Stanmore organ was built by Gerard Smith in 1716, but only the case and front pipes are original.
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I am sorry that you think that anyone that works for him/herself is a bodge artist who cuts corners.
I didn't say that. I have experience of your fine restorations and those of others. I don't regard you as 'little known'! But you must admit that there are plenty of those people out there.
A good many organ builders who are self-employed are doing so because they have been trained by the larger firms, but simply cannot afford to live on the wages these firms offer. Well quite. I worked for a large organ building company for 21 years and then went self-employed - not through choice, simply that the firm ceased trading. Absolutely
Also, what 'important contracts' are you meaning? I call Worcester Cathedral's new organ an important contract by Ken Tickell and St Peter's, St Albans by Manders a stunning musical instrument.
I would agree entirely. And Lincoln's Inn. But what about Selwyn, Girton, Leeds, Huddersfield, Marlborough, Tit Hall, Glasgow, Cardiff, Ely Place, RAM, Petersham, Lyme Regis, Beaminster, Jesus, Aberdeen, St John's. Not that any of these are necessarily bad organs, but it is a majority.
Who are they suppose to go to then? Marsian organ-builders?
Not what I said The point is surely: don't go by reputation and sales pitch and listening I was wandering round a church today while the organist was practising the hymns.: large newish organ by one of the world's most successful organ builders, perfect position, good acoustics. But too loud, too coarse: perfectly in tune but nasty reeds: no nice sounds whatever (and she did try lots of different combinations).
Peter De Vile
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If one trawls through the NPOR, it is noticeable that a lot of organ-building work in this country is done by little known tune-and-bodge people, one imagines at very low prices. Presumably they were mostly trained by the big firms, but can make a much better living cutting corners on their own.
It is understandable why this happens, but surely it is short sighted. In an increasingly centralised church, with its plethora of advisory committees, why should parishes (and cathedrals: one can think of one or two) not be compelled to have work done to a proper standard? Churches are not allowed to have accountancy or building work, for instance, done on the cheap.
This would increase the amount of work for decent firms, and presumably allow them to pay more than pitiful wages.
I have in the past been generally in favour of importing some organs from abroad, for the usual reasons. However, if the majority of important contracts always go elsewhere (which they do), there will be no industry left. Is this what we want?
Also, I can't understand why clients keep going to some foreign (or British) builders time after time, when it is well known that their track record has been distinctly patchy. Is this not a little lazy?
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In the long term, I don't believe it will survive, as I can't see that the spending of large amounts of money on it can be justified unless it be guaranteed to work properly...
The issue will be what sort of action can be put in its place that provides the necessary reliability and response but maintains the touch and suits the speech of the pipes.
Paradox of the day: despite all these problems, the Bristol organ and its action have survived longer in more-or-less their original state than practically any other British Cathedral organ...
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I was quite surprised to find an advertisement (from one of our leading firms), for a general organ-builder:
He or she needs to deal with 'the interpretation of drawings and CAD...the manufacture of all component parts from small action parts to large slider soundboards, consoles and casework...assembly of mechanical action and electronic parts...ability for hand finishing of wood to a high standard and veneering...knowledge of a wide range of finishing techniques...carving of decorative details...design ability including freehand drawing and CAD...ideally qualified to degree standard or equivalent, and some musical knowledge would be an advantage.'
£10-£10.50 per hour.
This superwoman (or man) would obviously be a highly skilled woodworker: I know several tradesmen with much more primitive skills who earn four times as much or more.
How does this compare with other countries?
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The thing that strikes me about Doncaster was that the reconstruction plan represented, in the broadest context, an already very dated restoration philosophy which recognised only the original material as being of historic importance. In the Netherlands, such an approach has long been abandoned and a better compromise could surely have been found at Doncaster which served both the organ's evolved state and its Thuringian roots. The result was indeed a victory for Consolitis.
It is worth re-stating that historic organs must always take precedence over the transient nature both of liturgical and performance practices.
Bazuin
I don't quite understand all of this, Bazuin...Certainly, 'The result was indeed a victory for Consolitis,' but I am wary of anything which is regarded as 'dated' or indeed 'state-of-the-art' or 'forward-looking.' This makes me one of those who are never satisfied, of course.
The point about the Doncaster organ is that it's not so far from its original state, and that a radical restoration would give us the biggest surviving organ by one of the best and (in England) most influential nineteenth-century builders. As you may know, the present situation was dictated by financial constraints, and lack of will. Doncaster is a miserable place, and it is a miracle that its wonderful church is still operating at all. Think Eindhoven in January.
Surely you can't argue that 'In the Netherlands, such an approach has long been abandoned'? What about the Concertgebouw in Haarlem? Or the arguments about the Aakerk in Groningen?
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Mind, I did hear the suggestion that perhaps it could be restored with the C-C console and Barker lever action and have added to it a modern electric conventional British console for service accompaniment...
R.
Gross! That's like saying that one should add a little electric console at Adlington Hall in case the bride wants Dieu parmi nous...
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I wonder if anyone would beprepared to take on the challenge of building new a user-adjustable, mechanical or pneumatic, as opposed to electric, combination action?
Stephen Bicknell and Bill Drake proposed a fully adjustable mechanical combination action for the now-abandoned project at St Mary, Abergavenny a few years ago
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Flentrop made (or ordered?) a new Barker lever for the C-C at the Concertgebouw, Haarlem, recently
and Nicholsons will have to restore one soon (thanks to HLF funding) in the Hill at St Mary's Tottenham. Any sort of old technology can be replicated, given time, will, and money.
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And who manufactures Barker Lever actions these day?
Flentrop made (or ordered?) a new Barker lever for the C-C at the Concertgebouw, Haarlem, recently
Oldest Living Organist? End of an Era
in General discussion
Posted
I have just been to the King's College London memorial service for Ernie or John Warrell, which was a jolly occasion. There is a recording available which he made last year at St Paul's Deptford: proceeds to the Musicians Benevolent Fund. It is a fine memorial, well engineered by Gary Cole in one three hour session. Handel and C18 good, Bach fugue on Magnificat excellent, Rhosymedre foul for some reason, but Howells Epilogue very good: the temperament would only worry the purist in two minor places. Pretty good for 95 years old, and evocative notes. Bill Drake's organ sounds fabulous: I hope this pleases Heckelphone.
The choir and the acoustics at King's are great these days (and the choir was ten years ago), but I still don't like the organ any more than I did in 1980, even though it has been fiddled with more recently Too loud all the time, swell too recessed, acid strings, no balance. When the console was at the other end the delay was like St Mary's Southampton, a building about five times as big.
Does anyone remember it before the 1978 rebuild, or indeed (we are talking about organists here), the 1932 one? In 1932 they lowered the roof, but not as much as I thought, now that I have seen the original design.