Clavecin
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Posts posted by Clavecin
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In the mid 1960's Blackburn was full of interesting organs at a time when the Cathedral organ (in its last incarnation by Cowin of Liverpool) was in a dire state. I was fortunate enough to play the 4 manual Willis in St Peter's complete with full length 32' Double Diapason, and Solo Ophicleide. The fine little 2 manual Willis in St Michael's went to Holland when the church closed. The 3 manual Binns in St John's (long since pulled down) had a beautiful wooden pedal Trombone; a similar, but later Binns at St James had a fine metal Trombone; and there was the 3 manual Willis in St Philip's with everything you could possibly need in a warm acoustic. Happily, when the church closed, this instrument was saved, but sadly it was rebuilt by the Lancaster Organ Building Company (a group of school teachers) who moved it to St Stephen's Blackpool, electrified the action, added a Larigot on the swell, detached the console and clothed the pipes in the most hideous case imaginable!
It seems to me that like so many industrial towns, Blackburn has suffered more than its share of organ vandalism - the St George's R and D being typical.
Greetings Hohlflute,
It's nice to hear from a fellow Lancashire lad, I agree with you that the borough of Blackburn had quite a few first rate organs. The 60's seems to be the decade when many large town-centre churches closed and many large organs, mostly in original condition, were broken up or moved elsewhere and extensively modified in the process.
I was never able to see St Peter's Blackburn the church having closed, but knew of it's reputation (anyone interested in Willis do look this one up), it's certainly a great loss. I did hear St Philip's though and remember being very impressed, but I didn't hear good reports of how it fared in Blackpool. I think Jack Longstaff was the organist at St Philip's, I remember a rather good recital and being shown the adjustable combination mechanism afterwards. A fine organ still extant is the Harrison at St Silas which now has mixtures by John Corkhill and electric action. This was Charles Edmonson's family church (I expect a few forum members will know Charles), and I remember going to hear it a few times when Charles was probably in 6th form and I a couple of years younger.
Regards,
DT
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The origins of the Trompette Militaire have been much discussed on here (and elsewhere). It would be nice to hear it sometimes though
I heard the Trompette Militaire on my last visit to St. Paul's.
A Sunday afternoon evensong in July '07 just before Malcolm Archer's departure. The anthem was William Walton's The Twelve (a personal favourite) and the voluntary was Orb & Sceptre in which the Trompette got a good airing. The chancel Great was 'out' at the time.
I hope Thomas Trotter uses it for ' Joie et clarte des Corps Glorieux' on the 27th. It would be nice if he also did a 'tour of the organ' like he did at Worcester.
DT
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Did anybody catch this?
I always listen to this, and enjoyed piece too.
DT
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Following the Manchester Town Hall thread got be thinking about this instrument, King George's Hall Blackburn. Possibly northern organists of a certain age may remember it.
I used to go and make a big noise on it very early in my organ-playing career, for a couple of shillings you could play for as long as you wanted.
The 3 big solo reeds were an extension and incredibly loud, placed just above the console. Internally, the layout was very wide and spacious - built like the proverbial battleship. Everything worked perfectly well and there were certainly some interesting sounds.
I suppose it was very similar to the N&B at Edinburgh's Usher Hall, and if it were still in place today might be lucky enough to get a likewise restoration.
During the late 60s/early 70s it wasn't much in favour locally, the complete opposite end of the spectrum to the newly arrive Walker at the Cathedral 'round the corner.
It certainly wasn't totally destroyed in a fire, I think the case remained and the internals were removed, the case may still be in situ, does anybody know?
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I very much doubt whether the Great reeds at Ripon were in fact revoiced in 1963. I'd be prepared to bet they remain pretty much as Arthur Harrison left them in 1912-14 in the first stage of the rebuilding which was interrupted by WW1 and not completed until 1926.
Well, I've certainly opened a big can of worms here haven't I!
I knew Philip Marshall very well during the mid 70s (I was his organ scholar at Lincoln), PM was O&C at Ripon at the time when Harrisons rebuilt it in 1963.
My original comment about the Ripon Trombas obliterating everything else as actually PMs assessment of them, and according to him, they were revoiced at that time. I also knew Ron Perrin around about the same time and played at Ripon several times, he had the Great mixture recast and I have a vague recollection of him mentioning that the Great reeds may have been altered again.
DT
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Having been up inside the case, I can state that this is actually the Pedal Ophicleide, not the G.O. reeds. The disposition of the instrument may be found in a back-issue of The Organ. When I return from Amsterdam, I shall attempt to locate the copy.
A quick 'google' turned up this old looking photo, pre 2001 I'd guess. I'm not sure which of the 2 bays of the North Choir Triforium this actually is.
We visited Ely over Easter in 2005, the reeds to which I refer were shiny new ranks which could only be the replacement Great reeds or the new Solo Orchestral Trumpet.
Enjoy your half-term break in Amsterdam.
DT
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Whilst there may be a few examples which are quieter and which have some harmonic development, there was a discernable pattern. These stops were often voiced on 300mm w.g. (although those at King's College Chapel, Cambridge speak on a pressure of 450mm. There are (or were) many examples which tended towards the former description; you mentioned Ripon and Ely (I have a copy of the recording of the Ely organ from the Great Cathedral Organs series), there was also Worcester Cathedral and Westminster Abbey (again recorded in the same series) - and York Minster, for which we have the testimony of Dr. Francis Jackson; Newcastle City Hall also contains G.O. Trombe ranks, which speak on a pressure of 375mm. There is also Crediton Parish Church (G.O> reeds still extant), Saint Peter's, Bournemouth (a colleague used to have lessons on the old organ) and a number of others in which those who know (or knew) these instruments spoke of the opaque and very powerful tone of the G.O. reeds.
In any case, it is possible that the G.O. reeds at Halifax and Boston have been revoiced at some stage. The organ at Halifax was rebuilt with alterations by Walker in 1968 and again in 1976. Given the prevailing change in tase at that time (and in comparison with other work by the same firm in the 1960s), I doubt that they left the G.O. reeds as Arthur Harrison finished them. That at Boston has been altered three times (although in each case, H&H undertook the work), 1940, 1953 and 1987 - the latter occasion involving 'slight tonal changes'. I note that the reeds on the G.O. at Boston (may) now speak on a pressure of 250mm.
I think that as far as Ripon and Ely are concerned, location of the ranks could well have a lot to do with their previously overwhelming effect; at Ripon the Great reeds are clearly visible in open space at the top of the case, similarly at Ely they are at the very front of the triforium. The Ripon ranks were revoiced in 1963, at Ely they were revoiced in 1975 (or possibly earlier) and replaced in 2001.
On the other hand, at King's the Great reeds are enclosed in the Solo box which is located in the well of the south side of the screen. I've only heard moderate amounts of organ on the couple of occasions I've attended services here, but I've obviously heard many live broadcasts and have few of their choral CDs. I've never been aware of the 'Harrison Tromba' sound during broadcasts, in fact the most dominant sound in 'big combinations' used to be the 4 rank mixture which was added to the Great during the 70s (I think), of course this could be due to microphone placement. This stop has now been toned-down somewhat in the 90s.
At Halifax, Walkers supressed the 17th and 21st ranks of the Harmonics in 1968, leaving a 2 rank Mixture of 19th and 22nd. The 1976 work was purely restorative, no changes being made to the organ as it stood. I played it a number of times in the mid to late 70s - it's an absolute gem, thank goodness it wasn't altered. I have Andrew Hayden's UK organ calendar, and Halifax is October's offering; the Great Mixture is listed as 3 ranks, if this is correct I assume that the 17th has been put back on.
Of course, the Halifax and Boston reeds could have been revoiced at some point, but in Halifax's case, considering that Walkers work was so conservative on what must now be the largest unaltered Harrison of the period, I rather doubt it.
DT
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According to the documents, the enclosed tubas at York were by Walker in 1903 and, if so, I doubt they were retained for historical reasons. I suspect their value, in being enclosed, is more to do with flexibility.
This got me thinking, though. If your sources say they are Hill, I wonder whether old pipes were used/adapted by Walker in 1903.
I've got the 1997 booklet about the Minster organ, possible you have too; Solo Tubas 8&16 appear on the 1859 Hill spec, the 1903 Walker spec also indicates these stops but the booklet doesn't credit them as being Hill. However if you compare the 2 specs there are considerable similarities - for example the 4 Great reeds, but again, not much material is credited as being Hill.
I would guess that much more of the pipework in the Walker organ was from the Hill instrument, albeit revoiced.
As to historical reasons, well, organists (and I suppose builders) are always very reluctant to get rid of good stops when it comes to a rebuild.
DT
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Are there examples of enclosed tubas? In general, they are unenclosed, aren't they?
Opinions about it?
Nobody has so far mentioned what is arguably the main purpose of our Cathedral organs - the accompaniment of the Cathedral choir during the daily office. Think of all those wonderful settings which cry out for a fine 'trumpety moment' - Stanford in A Nunc, Darke in F Communion, Howells Coll Reg Communion, Murrill in E Glorias, Finzi God is gone up & Lo the full, Matthias and recent works too numerous to mention.
The 'climactic' type of solo reed, whilst appropriate for leading the singing of a massed congregation in the nave; a most effective example being the unenclosed Tuba at Hereford - very loud at close quarters since being move into front portion of the case, is certainly not appropriate for the accompaniment of what is a quite small Cathedral choir (only 6 men). At Hereford there is also an enclosed Tromba on the solo which is used for this purpose, this stop has about the same output in volume as the Great Trumpet, but is more like the Tuba tonally.
Similarly, at Ripon the unenclosed Tuba 8 is too loud to use with the choir, so the enclosed Tuba 16 is used an 'octave up'
At Manchester, the unenclosed Tuba Mirabilis with it's pipes laid flat on the screen was ridiculously loud and was removed 'before' (I think) the console was relocated to the screen, the enclosed Orchestra Tuba is a fine stop - not very big but a good accompanimental voice.
On some instruments, York and St. George's Hall Liverpool spring to mind, there are historical reasons for the enclosed Tubas. At both venues these enclosed ranks were old - at York they were Hill stops and at St. George's the original Father Willis, the Mirabilis stops on both instruments (very much louder) were added in th 1930s.
At Lincoln, Salisbury and St. Paul's Father Willis put in modest Tubas at 8&4, the 8 can be used with the choir, together both will top full organ nicely without blotting everything else out.
The only very large building where there is only and enclosed Tuba is Peterborough, an it sounds quite big if I remember correctly.
DT
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And why is the Harmonics blocked Off ?
Pierre,
The Harmonics isn't blocked off, just the flat 21st rank is (gummed paper over the mouths).
I suppose this was done to leave a chorus mixture which could be used to top the 8/4/2 diapasons, which of course Harrisons never intended the Harmonics to do!
Listen to Arthur Wills' Great Cathedral Organ Series LP from Ely, played on the then untouched Harrison, the 3 Trombas blot out everything except for the 32 Bombardon.
DT
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In my experience, I have found that Harrison Trombas from the 1st half of the 20th century vary considerably.
At Bedford St. Thomas, Leigh, near home - a typical substantial 3 manual job, the Trombas are as loud and as tonally intense as many a Tuba. I have found a similar situation on other Harrison jobs of a similar style and vintage. Also Ripon and Ely used to be like this - once the Trombas are on, you might as well put the rest of the great stops in, you certainly couldn't hear them.
However, other jobs - Halifax and Boston to name 2 which I have experience of, have much more restrained Trombas (including the 16ft) which are quieter, a bit more free tonally and blend with the fluework somewhat better.
I don't think you can draw any pattern from Harrison's practice.
DT
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Nigel,
Organists' Review, May 2006 has a number of good articles about CC, including a photo of the SC chamades, and many others of CC consoles, cases and interiors.
Strange isn't it, I just happened to have the copy out on the setee as I had been searching for a different article this afternoon!
DT
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The S C instrument (if memory serves me right) had a twin in Sheffield Albert Hall (contract 1873) and had the same stops. I believe that S C got theirs because of Sheffield requiring such sounds. Can anyone back me up?
The Cavaille-Coll at Sacre Coeur dates from 1898 and was originally installed in the Chateau d'Ilbarritz in Biarritz, home of the wealth Baron de l'Espee, the case was a copy of that in the Albert Hall Sheffield (1873) and the spec. was slightly larger including the horizontal solo reeds. It was move to the Sacre Coeur in 1919 and rebuild into a different case.
As for Manchester; I played this in my youth in the 70s, my impression of the tubas was that they had been heavily 'Anglicised' at some point in the organ's murky past!
DT
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Yes please!
By the way, thanks Adrian for finding the time for a chat with myself and Mrs DT, and pointing out various aspects about the build on Saturday the 4th which I realise was a very busy day for you.
DT
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It sounded pretty good this morning on radio 4's Sunday Worship at 8.10, played by Daniel Moult.
DT
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Mrs DT and myself attended both evensong and TT's recital and thoroughly enjoyed both events.
Adrian had told us that up near the sanctuary steps was a good place to hear, so we sat on Can. for evensong and Dec. for the recital.
TT's recital was exceptional, as expected, we've had a real buzz about it since!
Adrian's choir sounded extremely good, particularly in the very demanding anthem.
The organ exceeded our expectations in every way; I thoroughly agree with the previous posters.
We must make the effort to go to Worcester more often!
DT
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I'm surprise that nobody's mentioned Chester Cathedral, very much a forgotten back-water.
I particularly like the contrast between the gilded pipes, limed oak woodwork, and the rather sombre new red sandstone of the cathedral.
Also, the pedal basses are fairly unobtrusively placed against the north wall of the north transept.
The choir is a bit less successful behind and above the choir stalls to the south, it would be musically and aesthetically better placed in a reduced form (this term is something of anathema to organists!) back in George Gilbert Scott's little case on the screen.
DT
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The late organist of one of our east country Cathedrals, for whom I was organ scholar back in the 70s used to relate a tale (one of very many), of a spoonerism he once made during a pre-evensong boys' practice - psalm 85, vs 10; relating to what 'righteousness and Keith' did to each other!
Needless to say, Psalm 85 never got fully rehearsed after that.
DT
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Hi Peter,
Having been away for some time, apologies for resurrecting a topic which has been off-the-boil for a while.
I too have always considered Beverley to be one of our finest cases, and remember a photo being the frontplate in a long-lost book on organs as a child.
As someone who has always had a keen interest in church architecture, I rank Beverley as my second favourite Gothic building (after Lincoln of course); just like Dr Hill's case and George Gilbert Scott's screen the whole building is a model of elegant proportion. The case and screen compliment the building perfectly.
However, I have two major reservations about the appearance of the Beverley organ:
1. The HNB console badly spoils the graceful silhoette, especially when viewed from the nave. It's a pity that Woods didn't reset it flush within the case during their rebuild, as at Lincoln or Southwell. After all, there's nothing inside a solid-state console, just look how shallow the mobile console at Liverpool is.
2. The mass of organ material (swell, solo, pedal) strewn in the south choir aisle and peeping over the top of the stalls is hideous. Beverley Minster is the Cathedral that never was, which other Cathedral is so marred by such an unencased spawl of organ bits?
Any opinions?
DT
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I will be at Evensong and the recital, together with Mrs DT.
DT
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At that time a small notice by a door stated that if you wanted to see the organ, turn up a quarter of an hour prior to Mass.
Hi Ron,
Yes, I read the little notice. Unfortunately we had a train to catch so I didn't want to accept an invitation into the organ loft then have to leave before the end of the service if it went on too long, also it would have been a real shame to have to decline any offer to play after the service had finished (not likely, but you never know!). Anyway, I really wanted to hear the organ from the floor.
Regards,
DT
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Just returned from 3 weeks in France, mostly in Burgundy where we visited very many fine churches in the distinctive Burgunian Gothic syle and transitional Romanesque/Gothic. I know, tough - but hey, someone's got to do it!
Didn't get to hear many organs this year and only managed to play one small Choir Organ.
However, we attended a Mass at the Cathedral of St Benigne in Dijon and heard this.
It sounded absolutely stunning, played by a lady organist.
The case is huge, the largest pipes are probably 24ft (bottom F of the 32), although the nave is quite spacious the cathedral is relatively small by French standards. If you haven't seen this website before, it's worth spending some time on - plenty of good photos both of the instruments and the building they are in.
So, anybody else heard this organ, or played it?
DT
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To continue the Dr Arthur G. Hill theme, St. Peter's Bolton has a very fine case on the transept side.
There is a good photo of it in the current edition of OR on the Principal Pipe Organs ad.
DT
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For me, P & F in B major to recital standard was about 2 years post Grade 8 distinction.
However, I'd dipped into 'Variations sur un Noel' from a fairly early stage in my organ studies, learning movements in order of technical difficulty over a few years. These are a good set of pieces for an intermediate-plus student to learn as each tends to focus on one particular technique. The last 2 movements; the Fugue and Toccata are actually not the most difficult.
P & F in B major is technically more difficult by an order of considerable magnitude!
DT
Divisions On Two Levels
in Nuts and bolts
Posted
I can think of 2 Willis Cathedral organs, of considerably differing vintage, where some of the departments are disposed vertically.
At Lincoln the Great is on 3 soundboards within the main case on the screen. The sliders run east/west and the Great occupies the centre part of the case, flanked by the Choir to the north and the Solo/3 Pedal ranks to the south. On the Great middle level soundboard is the main diapason chorus (open no.2 to mixture), below this are the remaining diapasons and the flutes, the reeds are above at the very top of case with the pipes going right up into the attic.
At Lincoln, Father Willis had to work within the constraints of the existing casework from the previous Allen organ, although he did raise the height to create a case which is tall and relatively narrow.
At Liverpool, the Swell and Choir divisions in the north chamber are also disposed vertically. Both occupy one large swell-box, with a dividing wall and separate sets of shutters (like the new Choir and Solo divisions at Worcester) which are flush with the front of the main arcade, the shutters can be easily seen from the right angle. These boxes are surprisingly shallow, if I remember correctly the Swell pipework is on 3 levels but I'm not sure about the Choir.
DT