alan taylor
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Posts posted by alan taylor
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The demise of the Worcester console is very sad. Surely it could have been retained as a museum piece?
Alan
I'm afraid the old console is no more.
A
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There is much truth in what John says. However, we will keep the unofficial web site up to date with the latest news. In fact an update was published today.
Alan
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To my mind and ears, the Father Willis of St Dominic’s Priory, Gospel Oak, London is far superior to the Willis of Turo. For those who haven’t experienced the Priory organ, there is a monthly recital.
Alan
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In the 1990s members of the APOA committee visited the workshop of Henry Willis and Sons, to both catalogue the pipes in store and take pictures of them. We have now placed both the list of pipes and the pictures on the web site. The list shows how many pipes of each stop still exist, some in a very bad state, and how many pipes are missing.
www.alexandrapalaceorgan.com
Alan Taylor
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I'm sure I was stuck away in some kind of loft above the choir stalls - don't remember there being a mobile console.. Maybe my memory is playing tricks.
I suspect you were at Holy Trinity, Prince Consort Road, in South Kensington.
Alan
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Interesting - I did not know that Downes washed his hands of it before it was finished!
I wonder who was the DOA who refused a faculty for a trumpet. In any case, did the church authorities actually need a faculty? The visual appearance of the instrument would presumably not have been altered and they were not removing anything from the building. Can anyone clarify this point in law, please?
Yes, St Clement Danes does need faculty approval for all such works. The RAF has a lease on the building. It is not owned by them.
The very elderly DOA was horrified with the idea that anyone would wish to alter, in any way, an organ that St Ralph Downes had once smiled upon.
Alan
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Curiously I had the chance to play a little-known Downes/Harrison organ last weekend at St Clement Danes Church in London. I played a recital and a service so got a chance to get a real feel for the organ. It plays like a dream, especially if you adopt the Blatchly 'Gloucester principle' - that of registering horizontally rather than vertically. I expected an organ that spat, shrieked and snarled - and, in reality I encountered an instrument that was warm, colourful and extremely versatile. As a choral accompaniment machine, it was superb. Curiously the choir felt more supported by the organ, due in no small part by the sheer clarity of the instrument. The chaplain at St Clement Danes (a good friend) tells me that they would dearly love an unenclosed Trumpet as the organ tends to pale a little when the building is full. I should state that the pedal has reeds at 16', 8', and 4' pitches but no unenclosed reeds other than a rather fun Cremona on the Choir. This organ seems to lack certain excesses experienced on other Downes-influenced organs. Is it the case that Downes was further influenced by the incumbent organist in the overall design? Certainly the organ pre-dates Coventry, but certainly has some of the traits.
The incumbent organist was Martindale Sidwell. Downes walked off the job after some major disagreements with Martindale.
The church was refused a faculty for a trumpet a few years ago.
Paul's recital was first class.
Alan
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We were there too.
It was much better than last year. Next year will be even better if John Birch doesn’t play. His sole aim seems to be to drown the orchestra. He has little idea of balancing organ and orchestra. There again, one of the first things he did, when becoming organist at the Temple church, was to unenclosed the big reeds. Thalben Ball presided over an organ that was right for the building. Full organ at the Temple is now a dreadful sound.
Stephen Disley was first class. His only problem was the position of the soloist in the Bach. She was so far away and organ and singer were not always together. I watched, with interest, the conductors beat during this item. It didn’t seem to have anything to do with what was being performed.
More audience this year I think.
Well done again to Manders.
Alan
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The unofficial web site at www.alexandrapalaceorgan.com has been updated.
Alan Taylor
Edited by moderator - all comments to this thread have been deleted and the topic locked.
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St John's Holland Road,London W14 has an organ built by Gern.However, Willis 3 rebuilt the organ. The rebuild included a Willis console.
A fine organ well worth playing/hearing.
Alan
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We attended the recital last Wednesday, sitting half way down the circle, in the same seats as at the last concert. We attended all of the opening recitals, sitting in different parts/levels of the hall and found the circle the best level from which to hear the organ.
We too were very disappointed with last Wednesday’s efforts, putting to one side taste in music. A good deal of the music wasn’t to our taste (if I never hear the Elgar again it will be too soon)
The recitalist really wasn’t on good form, making absolutely no sense at all of the Ad nos, just playing the notes but without conveying any meaning to the audience. This organist is capable of producing great music. Unfortunately, she failed to do so this time. The second half of the recital was better. She had begun to find her form.
The boredom of the first half got me thinking about the difficulties of choosing and performing organ music on such an organ. What has been written for such an instrument? Think about the difficulty of adapting the music as written to the RAH organ. Yes, this can be done by only using a few of the available stops. But just imagine how annoyed organists in the audience would be if full organ wasn’t used at all.
Transcriptions would probably work best on the beast .But, who would want to listen to a whole recital of transcriptions? Yes, I do know that there are some such people who would...
This organ was designed around the idea of multi uses. Possibly solo organ pieces being the last on the list of probably use. It fulfils its various tasks very well indeed. But, to my mind this does leave a solo recitalist with a problem - a very large array of stops and little repertoire to play, unless the music of the composers is adapted for the RAH organ. This in itself will cause howls of rage from some. “You can’t use that chorus for Bach. Tubas in Vienne!!!!”
On the whole I thought that the registers, used during the recital, not well thought out. They certainly didn’t compare with the very careful registrations used in the opening recitals. Just think back to the demonstration given by Martin Baker. I also got fed up with hearing so much of the chorus reeds. Was it the 4ft chorus reeds that screamed so much? I am very thankful that the super octave coupler has been removed from the tubas. Though I feel these stops might benefit from a sub octave coupler. Also, were we hearing the chorus reeds without enough flues to back them?
The tuning problems didn’t bother me. On the whole, I think I prefer an organ to be a little out of tune. During the cipher I was waiting for the inside organ light to come on. Well done to the organ builder with the torch. The very fact that the hall is so well used and busy,must make the tuning the organ very difficult.
I thought the number in the audience very disappointing. Might not the lack of bums on seats make the hall authorities even less inclined to host organ recitals?
The idea that there was/is a pot of money and some kind of competition between restoration projects is very far from the mark. The RAH organ was restored because the RAH has excellent management. The board know what they are doing and have great vision. A very competent team was assembled to plan and oversee the work. There are no dark nights at the hall. It is used every day. The same cannot be said of the other venues mentioned.
Alan Taylor
(Who doesn’t want to sink or burn David C)
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Very interesting about the provenance of the Contra Viola pipework. Actually a very encouraging amount of new pipework. There seem to be tensions still however, and clarity is always helpful. I would however, in a totally unbiased way, like to throw the gauntlet down and ask **IS the organ is going to put out to tender?**. If yes, then fine, good. If not, then WHY not? This is the crux of the matter, not nit picking about curators and so on. This lack of tendering is the single question that has caused so much controversy and much bad feeling, and has to stop. It is high time that palace officials accept a common policy that will be fair and unbiased. The truth is that there are other firms who could restore the organ, and they should be given the chance to put forward their scheme. May the best man win. QED. Donaters want to see fair play. It simply has to be that way. We either want the organ or we don't, and the organ is the priority, restored for the future. The whole issue currently remains stagnant and frankly very boring.
Breaking with my own injunction, I can't help saying;
Well said Richard. I coudn't agree more.
Alan Taylor
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Members of this list are able to read the actual letters pertaining to the "completion" of the choir organ on the web site www.alexandrapalaceorgan.com you might also like to note who the signatory to these letters was.The letters can be found at the start of the "Brief History 1990 to date" section.
Please don't rehearse the augments on this web site. All of the information needed to give you an overview on the project can be found on the two web sites. And, as I have already said, the web masters of both sites will be happy to answer your questions and post your comments and suggestions.
Alan Taylor
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Like the Worcester Cathedral organ saga I believe that many are now fed up with the Ally Pally organ ramblings, some of it defamatory and some of it no more than what appears internecine squabbling. I don't think this site is really the vehicle for such postings.
As I have requested before, please send your comments, questions et al, to the two web sites. The web masters of both web sites will be happy to answer your questions. The unofficial site will even post, if you should wish it, your comments.
But Barry, why read the postings on this topic if it upsets you to do so?
The topic has been accessed over 7,000 times, so not all would appear to agree with you.
Alan
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28 September 2005
Dear Member,
The College Executive (trustees) met on 22 September to review the financial
position of the College in relation to the proposed move to Curzon Street
station. I am sorry to have to tell you that the meeting was unanimous in
deciding that we should withdraw from the project.
In recent months, identified cost increases have necessitated further
negotiations to increase the capital funding package. On the revenue side,
it has also become clear that the ongoing costs of occupation would be very
significant and the opportunity to generate new income highly speculative.
Against this background the trustees asked our auditors Kingston Smith to
carry out a full financial review. The resulting report has confirm,ed an
underlying problem with the long-term viability of the project.
While there is no doubt that Curzon Street would have provided a superb
headquarters, the trustees have concluded that the financial risk is too
great and could prejudice the future of the College.
Clearly this leaves us with many difficult issues to face. Our intention now
is to continue working closely with all of our stakeholders, including our
funding partners in Birmingham and beyond, as we seek both to establish the
RCO in a long-term home and to continue to develop and deliver our core
services and facilities for members.
We will update you again in due course.
All good wishes
Yours sincerely
Peter Wright
President
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I couldn't see any "news" anywhere? (do please clarify) just a lot of letters one would assume to be private, and the possession of the proper appeal? I wonder if the Mander site is the right place to mention this maybe quite controversial site?
Best Wishes.
The news is on the 1st page. However, it seems to be loading rather slowly. This might be due to the heavy traffic on the web site. Do try again later or tomorrow.
Alan
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As the person who actually began this topic, I would like to add my agreement to what John Mander has posted. This is not the forum to debate the issues around the project. There are two web sites. Just read what they say and make your own minds up. The web masters of both sites will be happy to discuss any questions you might like to raise.
The web site www.alexandrapalaceorgan.com has just been updated with some rather interesting news. Read it check it out and make of it what you will.
Alan Taylor
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Now St Paul's has announced that Manders are to get the contract for the work. And, that a second mobile console is to be ordered. Can John now tell us what is planned?
Any chance of putting back the quire open wood John?
Alan
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.Improvements or changes to the Abbey organ...... well very little really. There's a slight bump when the 4' Octave is drawn on the Great although this can be masked by the Choir Principal 4'. It would be useful to have the Solo Orchestral Trumpet available on the Great, and the Pedal reeds are slightly masked by being so far down the Quire when listening in the Nave. At the console the Great reeds don't sound particularly thrilling, but in the building they blend well with the fluework and add weight to the tutti.
John
I suppose the jump when adding the great octave 4' is due to the removal, by Simon Preston, of the number 1 diapason. What a pity that he didn't have the removed stop re-erected in the triforeum.
John mentions the great reeds. These were once trombas. Simon Preston had them revoiced. I would either have them replaced by trumpets, or have them revoiced back into trombas.
As to the bombard section. Rather than move the pedal reeds from thier curent position, where they work well with the chior, I would add 2 pedal reeds to the bombard section (32 and 16')
I can’t agree with the comments that say the organ is badly placed. To my mind it works well where it is.
As I said in an earlier posting. A very good instrument for accompaniment. Not so hot as a solo instrument. Unless, that is, you have organists, such as Baker and Hosking, who use their ears and spend a great deal of time on registration.
Alan
London
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Thank you for your interesting and informative post John. Perhaps John could share with us the changes he would make to the abbey organ if he was given the chance?
John's time at the abbey was an exciting time. The combination of Neary conducting the choir and Martin Baker or John accompanying on the organ was thrilling. The excitement of the choir singing against the organ. The organ building up further. The choir then matching the organ was breathtaking. Martin Neary was always full of praise for his sub organist. And, if I remember correctly, John was given the second of his three years, during his first months in post. So impressed was Martin Neary, and indeed Martin Baker, by the new arrival.
Since the Neary/Baker/Hosking era, the accompanying of the choir and indeed hymns has declined. Also, the care that Baker and Hosking (and indeed Neary) showed as to registration as also fallen off rather sharply. The skill of Baker as an accompanist can be heard on the many recordings made in the Neary era.
John Hosking has made two solo recordings on the organ of Thuro cathedral. Also, one accompanying the choir. These recodings are to be recommended.
Alan
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I hear the organ of Westminster shAbbey most weekdays. And whilst I would agree that it is a wonderful choir accompanying organ, it is not much cop as a solo instrument.
To put things very crudely, some rather nice quite solo stops and strings. Quite an exciting full organ. But, so much in the middle is dull, dull and dull.
The Preston Bombard section sounds well if sitting in the quire. If in the nave it obliterates all else. Even the pedal organ.
In all my years at the abbey, the organists who got the best out of it were Martin Baker and John Hosking. You will all know who Martin Baker is. John Hosking was organ scholar for 3 years. Under Martin Neary and then Martin Baker. To all intents and purposes, during Martin Nearys suspension, he was sub organist. In as much as he did most of the playing. He is now assistant at St Asaph's in Wales. If you see one of his CD's buy it.
For those of your who are interested I can tell you that the dean has resigned. He will leave on sabbatical very soon and will leave the post next February. Maybe there is a God after all.
Alan
London
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I think the problem with the Abbey Organ is getting the balance right. A simple test for anyone is to sit in the nave and you will see exactly what the problem is. On the date in question which was 2 Saturday's ago. a visiting Choir attempted to sing Harwood in Ab in addition to o how glorious ! If only the Organist used his ears ! The balance was not right and drown out the hand full of singers who's voices were not really prepared to matched the acoustics of the Abbey. From where I was at the back it was inaudibile and instead a full and ponderous heavy organ which was not the ideal thing. especially when leading the closing Hymn. If people don't sing the hymns remember it's something your doing !
To try and alleviate the problem in the nave and indeed transepts, a playback system was introduced in Simon Prestons time.
The microphones can be seen hanging over the choir stalls. There are loudspeakers on the screen and in the transepts. This enables those sitting in the nave or transepts to hear the choir.
Unfortunately this is not always turned on (The controls are in the hands of whoever is playing) If not turned on, the sound of the choir is swamped, in the nave and transepts, by the organ. In the quire the sound is well balanced.
Alan
London
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You do not need to worry - as I have said, no visiting organist is permitted to play for services at Westminster Abbey!
I am afraid this information is not correct. Some visiting organists are allowed to play for weekday Evensongs. There was once a rule that said no more visiting organists. This came about some years ago. The precentor at the time was an FRCO.
Well, one Sunday, the precentor was celebrating the Sung Eucharist. A visiting organist was playing. Accompanying his choir. The organist played the procession in in fine style. Getting to full organ. Unfortunately, he used the full organ piston to achieve full organ. What he didn't know was that the piston was a reverser. It had to be pressed again to cancel full organ.
So, the first hymn was accompanied on full organ. He did mange to close the swell boxes though. When the kyries were played over on full organ, the precentor had to leave the altar and wend his way up to the organ console. The rule was then introduced.
However, since then, if the visitor is considered competent, they might be permitted to play. This is supposed to happen with an abbey organist present. This doesn't always happen and there was a problem, not a great problem, this summer after an abbey organist had departed.
Alan
London
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I really do admire your optimism Richard. But, I am afraid that history is against you.
Many, many bequests from the past have been altered. Some, like those that left coal or a loaf of bread for the poor, have been changed totally. Let alone all of those who left money to have Masses said for them after their death.
All that is needed is the permission of the Charity Commission or a parliamentary bill. This has already happened in the case of the Ally Pally.
Alan
Urgent - Alexandra Palace Organ [information Only]
in General discussion
Posted
The web masters of www.alexandrapalaceorgan.com have recieved what we believe to be an important letter from a past treasurer of the appeal. This letter takes the form of a series of questions to the appeal commitee. The letter has now been published on the above named web site.
Alan