MusingMuso
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Here's something slightly different:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzCPfJBJbqw
and........an equally unusual technique. (Unfortunately played on an infernal electronic)
I'm sure he would make a fine juggler.
MM
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The catholics have quite a challenge now .............
If they can put on tridentine high mass with all the trimmings and the music from the graduale it could be quite an experience.
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Would YOU want to be the one responsible for cleaning the windows with all that incense?
MM
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I don't know why this suddenly sprung to mind, but perhaps it was the fact that institutions, by their very nature, tend to be exclusive and evil.
However, Stephen Fry tells the story about the time he visited the Mormon Tabernacle, and joined a group of people on a tour. The lady guide, (of a certain age), suggested that the Mormons believed that in the after life, families would be re-united in heaven.
Stephen Fry raised his hand and asked, "What happens if you're good?"
Everyone was trying not to laugh, and turning on him, the lady said, "Would you leave please."
MM
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I'm not that surprised to hear that - I know which one I think presents the bigger challenge! Not to say the Reubke doesn't have its own challenges - it's just that they're different challenges.
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Exactly so, and of course, the Reubke was written with the organ in mind, and therefore fits naturally under fingers and toes. The problems with the Reubke, I found, were those of absolute control and the dual means of his writing expression marks, which require an awful lot of real interpretation.
Broadening this slightly, another work which I learned for a recital, was the "Noel Variations" by Dupre, even though I don't generally play a lot of French music; preferring German romantic music instead.
I guess Dupre must have had very large hands, because it caused me a few sleepless episodes close to the date, and something of a frantic dash towards the end of the practice regime.
I think that anyone who can play a work by Dupre has potential, and anyone who can play two works deserves a French medallion of honour.
Those who play more are just showing off.
This reminds me of a German friend I had at university, who on hearing me play some music by Gigout, turned to me and said, "Zer is only one good zing to zay about zer French music, and zat is zat you know exactly where you stand, for you always know zat it wass written by a peasant!"
MM
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My organ teacher told me that Boris Ord had often said that he had many ideas for compositions and was looking forward to putting these down in his retirement, but unfortunately he died aged only 64. I think this must have been told to my teacher by Harold Darke with whom he had had lessons; Darke was deputy choirmaster at Kings during the war.
....Never put things off...!
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The final comment is similar to a slogan Prof. Brian Newbould used to have on the music department notice-board at Hull University.
It read, "Never leave anything unfinished," to which some nameless wag
had replied, "...or some bum academic will do it for you."Brian Newbould finished Schubert's unfinished, of course.
MM
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I have to agree. It's undeniably gorgeous and reminds me so much of my late friend, Peter Goodman, playing the Mendellsohn on the organ of Holy Trinity, Hull, when it was in a first-class condition.
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For some strange reason, this strikes a chord with me, so-to-speak. Somehow, I just feel that Peter and Mendelssohn's music would be right for each other.....never pompous or bombastic, entirely musical, rarely showy, frequently charming and with an undeniably straightforward honesty about it.
That seems to describe Peter rather nicely, at least to those of us who had the privilege of enjoying his company.
MM
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Beautiful! Everything Jos van der Kooy touches always seems so right, and that superb organ makes you wonder why Mendelssohn ever came to England at the time.
Thank you for posting, even if I did almost end up dating a Chinese lady,
MM
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I'd agree with MM: The Schumann BACH Fugues present challenges at every level - technical, musical, compositional, interpretational, emotional. They are not pieces for an immature musician to take on - if you're one of those, stick to your flashy show-off toccatas. But if you want something to work at for months, that deepens your musicianship, these pieces more than repay the effort you put in.
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I'm glad Colin has responded; not because he agrees with me, but because it highlights the challenges certain pieces present.
Amusingly, I think it took me twice as long to learn the Schumman no.2 B-A-C-H fugue as it did the whole of the Reubke!!!!
MM
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I'm sure this isn't the appropriate place to discuss the murky politics and finances of the C-C, because there is plenty to see on-line about it.
For me, the real sadness is to see how a once rather inspired music/worship formula has now largely gone, and how those who dedicated their lives to the particular mission of that church have been badly let-down by unfolding events.
From our point of view, I trust that we can lament the downgrading of the music, which included a full orchestra, a fine choir, a superb pianist and, of course, Frederick Swann at the huge organ; not to mention some of the star soloists and instrumentalists who appeared regularly.
I really cannot see it happening elsewhere; leaving just the Mormon Tabernacle as the only alternative voice; assuming that one can even begin to believe in so many of their articles of faith.
MM
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Continuing with Respighi, who has ever heard of his Suite in G major for Organ & Strings?
Of course, the whole world knows this, don't they?
The above is Reger at his most challenging and even musically perverse; re-writing Bach's no.9 Two Part Invention by adding a third part to create a Trio..
This is music for the fearless and ambitious student.
MM
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I've been musing again.
Two thoughts occured to me, which take the form of questions.
What repertoire should we know that we don't?
More importantly, why don't we know it?
It really started when I wanted to remind myself of the music of Antalffy-Zsiross; the Hungarian composer. I was particularly keen to find a recording of his "Minnesang," which is one of the most beautiful quiet pieces I've come across.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kI-Jt8XBCRo
However, on another thread, the mention of Herbert Howells and Vaughan Williams sent me on a bit of a search, as I reminded myself of the Italian Vaughan-Williams, Ottorino Respighi. What beautiful music he wrote, but then I discover that he wrote music for the organ, as well as organ with other instruments.
I found myself immersed in a world of beautiful Italian melody and fascinating transcriptions of Bach by Max Reger.
It prompted a bit of a stroll along unknown and largely overlooked highways and byways, and it was like walking down a country lane of a Sunday summer afternoon; delightful in the extreme.
So I thought I'd share some of these "finds" with everyone, and hope that they inspire.
Unfortunately, the new format only allows a limited number of video links per post, as they automatically form full size links, so I will have to perform multiple posts.
To start with, a couple of Preludes from Ottorino Respighi; one loud and one gentle:-
More to follow........
MM
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I suspect that there is a revival of interest (and possible reassessment) in the work of JJ Binns at present.
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Long overdue; thought the reeds were not absolutely top-drawer quality by and large.
Hopefully, the same revival of interest might also include Charles Brindley and Isaac Abbott; two of the other very significant northern buidlers active around the same time.
There is to be found in the organs of these three builders, IMHO, the basis for a whole new potential and future direction in British organ-building.
MM
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Looks the same!
That's very sneaky of them.
You're right Barry, because I checked the dates on the YouTube vidoes, which pre-date the new organ.
However, I did find this, which allows a bit of a poke around the organ and a few sounds to be heard.
http://www.landeszeitung.tv/nc/lokales/video/album/galerie/bardowicks-neue-dom-orgel/
If you click on the little magnifiying glass, it comes up in a new window.
MM
PS: You can trust me on the train and bus times.
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I'm afraid not; it has been claimed that something is to appear on the Nomine page, but it hasn't, yet.
You can hear some doodling on something like full organ here: http://www.ndr.de/re...d/orgel205.html
Best
Barry
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Oh dear!
I think this is what you want...............
Before I stop investigating, does anyone need the airport departures, bus and train times?
MM
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Sorry, wrong title. I meant this one. I remember playing this after an evensong once with my revered teacher turning the pages for me. At the end he ruminated for a moment (if he'd had a beard I'm sure he would have stroked it) and said thoughtfully, "Hmm... It's a good piece..." in a tone of voice that clearly meant, "What a thoroughly hateful racket - but one must judge composers objectively." For various reasons, I couldn't get anywhere near it today, alas.
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If you'd said the "Inferno," we'd have understood!
It is a bit obtuse and perverse in equal measure, and if it is played brilliantly, it's just such hard work listening to it; that much I concede
The Fugue is more tolerable because it is grounded in something.
In a way though, It possibly demonstrates how important themes and motifs are, and where would the harmony of Wagner be without them?
Reger was at his best when he was variously using chorale melody, fugue or passacaglia form, and with all those, he created organ masterworks which withstand comparison with Bach.
Considering his enomous output, it would be difficult to imagine any composer creating works of equal musical success and stature; especially since he sits at an awkward time in the development of western music, when everything was suddenly thrown into the melting-pot.
Was he as great as Bach himself?
I'm not sure I know the answer, but I think I can say with some certainty that his music is much less approachable, and therefore much less memorable.
Perhaps the music of Reger should be a matter for careful selectivity, but I suspect that few would argue that some of the quieter Chorale Preludes, the D minor Toccata & Fugue, the (shorter) Introduction & Passacaglia and, of course, "HGZL" are wonderfully wrought works, which do not require the listener to go into training and/or take pills before hearing them.
MM
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You call that melody? I think the fact you seem to have a problem with it rather proves my point. Perhaps there's a danger of descending into semantics here, but to me melody and tune are pretty much synonymous. Just because a strand of counterpoint might be singable, that doesn't automatically qualify it as a tune in my book. But it does depend on how you want to define the word.
This morning, I played part of Alain's "Le Jardin Suspendu." (I can't play it all on a baroque organ, but the first two pages work quite well). There are ordinary members of the congregation who adore that piece, (and "Litanies"), yet it doesn't have a real melody as such. It works as an ethereal and mysterious wash of sound because it isn't key centred. Howells tried to do the same thing using diatonic harmony, with the result that you get a shifting, constant series of what sound like modulations.
My problem with Howells, is that he tried to be "free" of melody, but provided no alternative, either in terms of rhythmic motifs or any recognisable modality.
There is more than a grain of truth in my little joke about "The music of Herbert Howells is the polite Anglican response to the atheistic harmonic ramblings of Frederik Delius." (I was hugely disappointed to learn that he was not a man of faith, but anyway, he wrote church music, so no matter).
No, there is a tune there. Like I said, he was perfectly capable of writing one when he wanted. What I asked is where are the tunes in the titles I quoted above.
As I have neither heard not even seen the titles you mentioned, I'm afraid that I casnnot comment. I note that the entire world hasn't bothered to post them on YouTube, so they're obvious smash hits!
I suspect the rest of us know perfectly well what the influences are in "Master Tallis" - and it's not Respighi.
Now I may have got the bit wrong about Resphigi, but actually, I wasn't far wrong, because Vaughan-Willams was also influenced by folk-song and the renaissance, and I believe had a common link by having studied with Ravel. Gustav Holst was probably another influence. but he was far more talented and out on a musical limb all his own.
I grant you there are more chromatic pieces. (by Reger). I was scarred for life by learning the Chromatic Fantasy when I was young. What a waste of time and effort that was! I'll never forgive him for that piece.
I'm not sure, but do you mean the Bach Chromatic Fantasy & Fugue transcription by Reger?
Child's play on the piano of course......
Just think yourself fortunate that you didn't have to learn the Bach "Three part" Inventions, which Reger created for organ from the Two Part Inventions.
The following programme is an absolute delight throughout. The things people do to Bach's music!
http://pipedreams.pu...ings/2003/0310/
I've heard some good chamber pieces by Reger though.
This could be the start of your rehab programme!
In fairness to Herbert Howells, he was part of that movement away from the tyranny of Tonic/Dominant dependency, which gave us some splendid marches, but did rather hold us back.
Back to listeneing to the "Downland Suite" by John Ireland
MM
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I'm probably the first to see this on the board, and sometimes it pays not to say a lot.
Quite simply, we have just lost one of the greatest musicians, organists and improvisers of all time, and he will be sorely missed. RIP Gerry, and thank-you.
MM
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Well, make your mind up!
Fair enough, but why then should you think this lack of knowledge qualifies you to expound about his style? How do you know that you can "more or less improvise in the style of Howells" when you clearly have only the most superficial idea about what his style is? At least I don't pretend to be knowledgeable about Reger; I just know that the heavily chromatic late German Romantic style isn't at all to my taste. I'm happy leave it at that - except occasionally for the purposes of winding people up.
Well, there you are, you see. Howells wasn't particularly interested in melody. He has even been criticised for being incapable of writing a tune. That's rubbish, of course, because he could certainly write one when he wanted to, just as he could write a fugue. The second of the Three Pieces for Violin and Orchestra and some of his songs are examples - and "Michael" isn't a bad tune either. But much of the time he saw no need for melody at all and it certainly wasn't central to his style. Where are the melodies in any of the organ pieces I cited above?
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I would hate to get into a note by note account of anything by Howells, but even I can sing the verious "unchained" (unfathomable?) melodies from the the Set 1 No.1 Rhapsody.
The trick seems to be to think up a tune about as adventurous as "Baa Baa Black sheep," splitting it up into individual lines and repeating each a couple of times while modulating in whatever direction takes your fancy; the harmony slithering about with the sort of classic, HEAVILY CHROMATIC side-slips, of which the Bentley Boys and the Battle of Britain Spitfire pilots would have been proud!!
The compositional "technique" then seems to consist of losing one's direction completely, in a mass of CHROMATIC HARMONY, before remembering a few notes of the original nursery rhyme and throwing them in again, just to keep everything recognisable: all the time getting louder or softer as the muse dictates.
So much for Set 1 No.1
What about "Master Tallis's Testi...sorry...Testament?"
Are we saying there is not melody?
God knows how I manage to remember it if there isn't.
It's obvious to me that Herbert Howells listened to Resphigi and liked what he heard, because there are certain similarities in the treatment of what sounds like an old melody. For once, Mr Howells seems to have moderated his chromatic tendencies; possibly because he found a beautiful melody instead.
I am just totally bemused by the idea of Reger being HEAVILY CHROMATIC all the time.
The "Hallelujah! Gott zu loben!" hardly shifts from E-minor/G major. Furthermore, the notation is quite economical, and whilst the Fugue is complex, the main part of the work is quite a straightforward set of variations. Indeed, it is more direct and approachable than even the Brahms organ Prelude & Fugue in G minor IMHO.
MM
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As usual when in a corner you move the goalposts! So, having started merely with counterpoint, we are now discussing fugue. As I'm sure you realise, Howells preferred freer, more rhapsodic structures to the straightjacket of traditional forms. I think he probably took the view that previous generations of composers had done these forms to death and that they were not very relevant to the way he wished to express himself in music. If, like me, you had sat alongside him and watched snippets of counterpoint materialise effortlessly on paper, his brain clearly outstripping the speed of his pencil, you would have no doubt about his technical facility with counterpoint. If you want proof that he could write a fugue when he wanted to, look at the Poco Lento and Fugue that forms the last movement of his first organ sonata, written when he was 19 as part of the portfolio of works he submitted for the open scholarship at the RCM. OK, it's not quite a double fugue, but it does have two subjects, the second being the theme of the introductory Poco Lento, introduced towards the end - and very masterly it all is too. That he rarely turned to fugue thereafter simply proves to my mind that he had little interest in "cleverness". Well, this is the popular view and perhaps I'm straying onto quicksand, but I really don't think it quite hits the nail on the head. Look at the late organ pieces like the fourth Rhapsody, Flourish for a Bidding, Epilogue and the Partita. These to my mind are predominantly harmonic pieces. On paper they look (and are) contrapuntal in the extreme, but the counterpoint is all dashing around rather aimlessly and it's the harmony that holds the pieces together (or not). To my mind these pieces are strong on effect, short on music and don't amount to much more than a lot of hot air. I think it is no accident that they are not amongst his most treasured. In the classic pieces that have made his reputation the chords are very important, yes, but the real musical interest is in how the individual "voices" lead into and out of these chords, making the harmony evolve. Really, of course, the truth is that the effectiveness of these pieces lies in the perfect balance between the harmony and the counterpoint: one is nothing without the other.
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I'm not moving the goalposts at all; merely establishing which game they belong with. In some way, if you take the geatest composers, there are similar differences. Compare, for instance, the music of Brahms with that of Ravel; both among my top favourite composers. Brahms utilised classical formality harking back to Beethoven and Bach, whereas Ravel wrote in a much freer style altogether; often with exquisite harmonies as well as incredible virtuosity, inventiveness and fluidity.
Saint-Seans belongs to another tradition altogether; perhaps more German than French, and very much a part of the "academic" set which included Guilmant.
Perhaps I should know more about Howells, but I don't feel deprived that I do not. To me, the problem is one I would associate with a great deal of English music, in so much as the melodic takes precedence over everything else, and whatever counterpoint exists, is a combination of voice-leading and harmonic consenance. The fact that I can more or less improvise in the style of Howells, suggests to me that he started with melody, which was then clothed in late romantic harmony, but with a certain delight in temporary key-changes, almost for the sake of it. You don't have to take my word for it however, for I think it was Edmund Rubbra who stated that the biggest problem with English composers was a tendency to constantly change key.
If you do that with late romantic (Wagnerian) harmony, what you get is something akin to dissonance and twelve-tone music, but melodic structuring can keep this within acceptable bounds; as can rhythmic motifs and chordal counterpoint....Messaien for example.
Now I can never quite understand why people consider Reger dull, for in essence, with the organ-works, he restricted himself to classical, contrapuntul forms and adopted the extremes of late romantic/chromatic diatonic harmony....and then some.
Unless musicians understand that his works are essentially melodic, (in that the thematic material is dominant and the linear drive is essentially that of vocal, arching phrases), then it is all too easy to get bogged down in the "cleverness" of his counterpoint.
In this, he does not differ from Bach or Brahms in the slightest, yet the harmonies, if played too vertically, can kill the melodic and contrapuntal structures. As with Bach, the cleverness, (unless Bach and Reger were making an academic point), SHOULD go almost unnoticed, as indeed it does with Brahms. Digressing slightly, how many organists can really play Reger?
In my lifetime, I had the enormous privilege of hearing Germani perform Reger, and also other great exponents, such as Melville Cook, Jos van der Kooy, Simon Preston and Brian Runnet, while even on radio, I can still recall my response to performances by Anton Heiller and Heinz Wunderlich.
They all have or had one thing in common, which is that rare ability to keep the thematic/melodic material centre stage, no matter what else is going on. They all projected or project a rhythmic/melodic freedom, where rubato is at least, (if not more) important than changes of dynamics.
Knowing "Hallelujah! Gott zu loben!" pretty darned well, I did a bit of a survey from various sources.....records, CD's, radio archives etc. Out of perhaps 15 or more recordings, I came to the conclusion that 3 of them were supremely musical, and the rest were just dull and/or musically clumsy.
Germani still came out in top position, (as one might expect), a lady organist of Taiwanese origins was next, and Murray Somerville didn't disappoint. Unfortunately, I couldn't find on-line recordings of Heinz Wunderlich or Simon Preston, but I feel sure that they would be on a par with the very best.
It's so tempting to get bogged down with the detail, (where the Devil clearly lies in Reger), and to marvel at the formal contrapuntal devices such as strict imitation, inversions, fugue, stretto (etc etc), but if the wild, rhapsodic nature of the music is lost, you may as well do something useful and light the fire with the score. I'm sure Herbert Howells had facility, but it was nothing as compared with Reger.
MM
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Good try, MM, but it sounds as though you know less Howells than I do Reger - and I would have said that was quite difficult!
For my money, the effect of Howells's music relies much more on counterpoint than it does on harmony.==============================
No, no,no!
That's called imitation, unless I've overlooked a double-fugue he wrote. Please tell me there IS one.
MM
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Good idea - but could you get it down to 2 minutes, please?
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Don't tempt me!
I once did a spoof Reger in the style of Herbert Howells. You keep the harmony but do away with the counterpoint; adding lots of passing notes instead, just so people know something is going on and it's not a problem with the organ.
MM
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Not really - I simply drew attention to the fact that there is a variety of moods in the composition (and that, even in his 'darker' moments, his music was still far from the opressiveness one finds in Liszt) - this, surely, would apply to many other works. Your assertion left me with the clear impression that you had already reached a conclusion regarding Reger's mental state.
Indeed. I read somewhere that at the time Reger was writing his organ works, it was the custom for German organists to play everything rather steadily. Therefore, if he wished for a piece to be played at a reasonable Allegro, he would mark the score Prestissimo (or similar), in the hope that the performance would be played at a speed approaching that which he had in mind.
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In a recent PM to a member of the board, I stated that have a golden rule with Reger. I treat it exactly as if it were urtext Bach....no metronome markings and no tempo indications of any kind.
I let the notes speak to me, and I choose what I regard as the right tempo.
That way, it is possible to be first a musician, and then something of a reluctant virtuoso; assuming that one gets at least most of the notes right and in the right order.
Of course, it's possible to miss a few out by drawing extra stops!!
MM
PS: I've always felt tempted to record a "5 minute Reger" video, like those splendid Shakespeare plays. It would save a lifetime!
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From the facebook page of the group supporting the choir; a note which explains the transitional phase:
Paul
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That's a crumb of comfort at least, but I think it emphasises what I've said previously about the power of particular individuals within the church; sometimes used wisely, but often not.
MM
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This should give you a flavoursome starting point:
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I see from the cathedral website, that the the choir is in a "transitional phase."
To where, I wonder, are they transiting?
MM
had replied, "...or some bum academic will do it for you."
For my money, the effect of Howells's music relies much more on counterpoint than it does on harmony.
Crystal Cathedral
in General discussion
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I don't think it would be so difficult; I mean, this is Hollywood territory.
Enter 'Batman & Robin' with buckets and sponges.
"Jumpin' Jehosava Batman! Look at that glass!"
"This calls for Holy Water, Robin!"
MM