MusingMuso

====================== Well, you can certainly play it and hear it, for this was the organ by Hill which Dr.Nicholas Thistlethwaite had a hand in relocating to the Methodist Church, Cambridge, where it now amply fills the building. It is not a huge sound, even at Cambridge: much less so in the vast space of the Methodist Eastbrook Hall, Bradford, which following a fire, is now a shell about to undergo re-development. The organ sounded very distant in that building, but it sounded nice. Miraculously, the organ was removed before fire wrecked the building. MM

========================= Aha! Not quite so, it would seem. Wm.Hill covers that fascinating period of considerable tonal experiment in the UK, and in the collaboration of Hill and Dr.Gauntlett, there appeared quite separate Tierce ranks, as indeed other builders such as Jardine experimented with. Specification alert!!!!!!!! EASTBROOK HALL BRADFORD 1859 Pedal 1 Acoustic Bass 32 2 Open Wood 16 3 Open Metal 16 4 Sub Bass 16 5 Principal 8 6 Bass Flute 8 7 Twelfth 5 1/3 8 Octave 4 9 Octave Flute 4 10 Sesquialtera V 11 Trombone 16 12 Clarion 8 13 Krummhorn 4 Choir 14 Open Diapason 8 15 Stopped Diapason 8 16 Viol di Gamba 8 17 Gemshorn 4 18 Flute 4 19 Nazard 2 2/3 20 Flageolet 2 21 Tierce 1 3/5 22 Clarinet 8 23 Tuba 8 24 Tuba Clarion 4 25 Tremulant Great 26 Double Open Diapason 16 27 Open Diapason 1 8 28 Open Diapason 2 8 29 Stopped Diapason 8 30 Dulciana 8 31 Quint 5 1/3 32 Octave 4 33 Harmonic Flute 4 34 Tenth 3 1/5 35 Twelfth 2 2/3 36 Fifteenth 2 37 Sesquialtera V 38 Mixture III 39 Trumpet 8 40 Clarion 4 Swell 41 Open Diapason 8 42 Stopped Diapason 8 43 Echo Gamba 8 44 Voix Celeste 8 45 Principal 4 46 Open Flute 4 47 Twelfth 2 2/3 48 Super Octave 2 49 Mixture III 50 Contra Fagotto 16 51 Cornopean 8 52 Oboe 8 53 Clarion 4 54 Tremulant I would have to check this out a little more, but this dates from 1859, which if I recall correctly (I will have to check this too) pre-dates the Doncaster Schulze and the influence it had on UK organ-building. Also the following snippets of information from my notes:- Ashton-0under-Lyne PC - 1845 re-build and additions. GREAT Included SEPARATE 3.1/5 and 1.3/5 registers Mixtures as follows:- 17.19.22 24.26.29 SWELL 17.19.22 CHOIR? Dulciana Cornet 1.8.12.15.17 CHEETHAM HILL, MANCHESTER 1840 Sesquialtera on Gt. Organ only had a 2rk quint mixture on the very under-developed, minimal Swell. TAUNTON, SOMERSET Gt V rks Sesquialtera Gt V rks Mixture (presumably Quint) ---------------------------- Around this time, mixture pipe scales were fairly normal, with low cut-ups, prompt speech and minimal nicking. The reason why Willis mixtures do what they do is connected to the fact that he used small scales, slow speech, quite fluty but hard toned voicing with copious nicking and he blew the things very hard. As a consequence, they really are not very good chorus mixtures at all, but did tend to bridge the gap between the stringy flues and the somewhat ferocious reeds. Power was everything, even at the expense of tonal quality. Go back in time to Alkmaar (1725-ish?) and one sees great big tierce mixtures intended not for solo use, but as part of the chorus. They are quick to speak, bright in pitch but quite gentle of tone and blend wonderfully with the chorus-work.....but then, this was the Schnitger dynasty, and they knew how to do it like no-one else. We tend to write off the gritty sound of tierce mixtures in the UK, or relegate them to some far-flung corner of the instrument, but they are part and parcel of the Bach tradition, just as they are part of the UK tradition in the 18th century and beyond. I have to admit that I LIKE tierce mixtures, so I may be biased. MM

============================== I've been fortunate in so much as I have lived with a substantial Fr.Willis organ in original nick, replete with the components Pierre mentions.....the Diapason chorus, the Tierce Mixture and the 16,8 & 4ft reeds. This was, and remains, a splendid sound which is also familiar to anyone who knows the organ of St.Paul's Cathedral, London. However, I've also lived with a substantial Harrison & Harrison, in which the Swell Mixture is entirely a quint one, with the typically fiery Arthur Harrison reeds. Personally, I actually prefer the Arthur Harrison full-swell, but only by the width of an aural gossamer thread.....both are magnificent IMHO. Swimming swiftly across to Haarlem, one hears chorus-reeds which are peculiarly "English" in tone, and again, these blend perfectly with quint mixtures, even though the instrument has enough tierces to satisfy the most discerning. We swim back to England and the work of Hill, Norman & Beard. The Swell reeds on a typical H,N & B are just a tad on the side of "fat" rather than "thin" toned, but still very much Trumpets, whatever they may be labelled. They "just" blend nicely with a quint mixture, but of course, William Hill often had the Sesquialtera in his specifications: sometimes not at all. I wonder if Pierre has heard the Schulze at Doncaster, with it's "improved" Swell reeds (Norman & Beard/possibly Walker re-voicing?), containing harmonic trebles and blown by 6"wg pressure? He would soon realise on playing the organ, that any of the chorus ranks, with or without tierces, blend perfectly with essentially "classical" chorus-voicing derived from the Silbermann pedigree and blown by a mere gnats breath of wind....and so back to Haarlem. I suspect that once "chorus" reeds cross a certain rubicon, they become more and more difficult to bind to a diapason chorus; hence the "Harmonic Mixture with Septieme" route. If Cavaille-Coll reeds don't blend especially well with the chorus-work, then IMHO, this may be due to the fact that Cavaille-Coll didn't make very good flue-choruses. The climax reeds are superb, the Flutes and Strings magical, the Vox Humana stops virtually peerless.....but the chorus-work is a bit "yuk." Listen to Bach played on a Cavaille-Coll with "classical" registration, and the result is harsh and brittle IMHO. I don't think Bach would have liked it anyway! MM

===================== Well it could have been worse, he could have stolen Vierne's daughter I suppose! I guess it was a case of Mutiny. The organ-builder Hinsz married Schnitger's wife, but at least he had the courtesy to await his death first! MM

=========================== Well, I don't think we need to restrict ourselves to Steinmeyer organs. I have been fascinated to hear the quality of the Mutin organs, which although Cavaille-Coll in nature, sound just that little bit different. Sites like this are unusually interesting when one hasn't heard a particular type of organ live, and being honest, I don't know where I would go to find a Mutin organ. MM

Well this should please everyone because, in digging around the net for details of Steinmeyer instruments, I came across an un-anticipated delight. Of course, I was hoping to find untouched examples of Steinmeyer's work, but instead, came across an Argentinian organ-site, where scarcity of money has ensured that many organs remain in more-or-less original condition. To add the the delights, there are mp3 samples and recording available on the site, which include sounds from Cavaille-Coll, Steinmeyer, Walcker and Mutin. Incredibly, the site also includes sound-clip examples of organs by Bevington and Forster & Andrews etc. As we have discussed many things about these builders recently, this seems to be an excellent point of reference, so here is the URL:- http://www.geocities.com/organos_argentina/indexeng.html MM

============================ Pot & kettle, calling each other black? MM

======================= OMG! pcnd is "The Stiq"

=========================== If I may be so bold.......... I would suggest the Steve that he doesn't post long specifications of American organs: not because they are irrelevant or uninteresting, but because they are so very long and space-consuming. It would be far batter to re-direct us to URL's where such things can be read by those for whom such things are compulsive reading. Actually, the Riverside organ is one of the more interesting, for it has undergone something of a metamophisis in recent years and the acoustic of the church has been improved. The point I, and most other organists would make, is that a paper specification counts for nothing, and everything depends on the skill or otherwise of the builder and tonal-artist. Unfortunately, that cannot be listed on paper or on a computer-screen. One thing I have noticed about this discussion board is the almost total silence when it comes to the more important German instruments of the romantic period; though Pierre does often mention E F Walcker. I wonder if Barry Jordan or anyone else knows how many of the really big Steinmeyers are still in original condition? Back in the 60's, when the BBC broadcast organ-recitals from all over the world, I recall being very impressed with organs such as those in the Meistersangerhalle at Nurenburg. Do these instruments still command the respect they deserve? MM

I think I would agree with what Norman & Beard felt about close-toned chorus reeds, which would possibly include Edwardian Swell Cornopeans, as well as the usual Great Trombas. They may have a place as colouring registers in very large instruments, and Trombas often make a nice foil to the more overwhelming sound of Tubas, but in my experience, these type of stops simply do not, and cannot, blend with normal fluework successfully. They blend OK with Tibias however, which possibly says it all! Quite why anyone felt it necessary to improve on the imposing Trumpet registers and much more fiery Tubas of Fr.Willis, is beyond my understanding. One only has to listen to St.Paul's Cathedral to realise how effective such stops were, and then compare these to splendidly restored, but much "clangier" sounds of the Trombas at the RAH. Close toned reeds need to be "bound" to a chorus, and that was possibly the reasoning behind the classic Arthur Harrison/Dixon Harmonics mixture, and when such Mixtures are replaced with quint ones, the effect is not especially fine with the Trombas drawn. Norman & Beard spent a lot of time trying to make closer-toned reeds blend with the fluework, and when Hill, Norman & Beard did their best work, they always chose trumpets over closer-toned reeds, to great effect. So, I hate Trombas! MM

============================= I don't know if the Chamades have been toned down at St.John's, but I can tlel you a delightful story about them, which the late George Guest swore was true as I chatted to him. When the Chamadery was installed, and old Don refused to sit in his regular seat in the choir: instead, taking a place opposite the organ on the South side of the chancel. This cause unerstandable outrage..... ......among his peers, and after the service the old Don was challenged to explain his out-of-order behaviour. He looked up at the chamades and pointed at them, "I'm not going to sit underneath those infernal things!" "Why ever not?" His peers asked. "Because I'm not going to have them dripping all over me!" He replied. A case of "Cor blarney" I think, but a delightful anecdote from the master. MM

==================== Pursuit is all about speed differentials. The Harrier can flip into vectored hover, resulting in a pursuit jet or missiles over-shooting or losing heat-seeking capacity as the jet engines are thrust downwards. The the Harrier pilot just sends HIS missiles after them! It's a neat trick, and makes the Harrier especially effective in combat. Good old Barnes Wallace! MM PS: The Harrier CAN fly backwards....very slowly.

============================= This will definitely be my last word on American v. European organs.....honest! It seems to me, that there is an enormous cultural gap which keeps the subject lively, but which will never somehow fill in the Atlantic Ocean and enable us to shake hands somewhere in the middle. It is, I guess, the gulf which existed between Virgil Fox and E.Power-Biggs. Europe certainly has mega-organs, but of a different nature and perhaps more of a piece as musical instruments.....Cavaille-Coll, Walcker and the organ builder we always tend to overlook, Steinmeyer. In the UK, the work of the various members of theWillis family; Hill, Norman & Beard, Arthur Harrison (etc) were associated with some very large instruments, but that era has now passed. Take a simple analogy. If I wanted to drive a very fast car on a race track, I could go two ways. I COULD get a Chevrolet Corvette, or somesuch thunder machine, and go very, very fast in a straight line and hope that the brute will stop. I could, on the other hand, choose something light, minimal, sophisticated, responsive, nimble and not over-powerful, which would knock spots off the US car around the corners and under braking. Each would have their strengths and weaknesses, but forty years ago, that competition really took place to the delight of many race fans, and the little car won the championship! Whis is the best fighter jet? The one which goes very fast, or the one that can fly backwards? Think about your answer, because the latter actually has the advantage. So long live the cultural divide, and in a spirit of our "special relationship," enjoy the fun we have discussing the things which both unite us and divide us. I still prefer a Schnitger though!!!!!!!!! MM

========================= Aha! Mystery solved! At least I now know why the organ I hear on recordings NOW doesn't quite fit the sound I experienced back in the early 80's. Lawrence Phelps completed his work at Boston in 1999, and discarded an awful lot of original material by G.Donald Harrison, so when I played it, it was more or less the original instrument, save for the additions Steve mentions. I'm not sure I would be quite so impressed to-day as I was then. MM

=========================== That isn't my gripe Brian. It has more to do with the way completely different styles of voicing and even musical purpose are scattered far and wide in far flung corners. There is a similar mis-match of styles evident in the Mander organ at Sheffield, which has become so unloved by the current people there. Essentially, it was and is a Fr Willis "core" organ, and adding "baroque" divisions to a basically English Romantic instrument from the 19th century was never going to be a great idea, whatever the organist of the day believed. There was so much that was experimental about Atlantic-City, and that perhaps equally applies, on a very much smaller scale, to the organ at Sheffield and others elsewhere. The Aeolian-Skinner at Riverside had, to quote Virgil Fox, a part of the organ "a whole city block away," but at least it was matched to the rest and sounded fine. MM

======================= (Priceless material) Good heavens! Scandalous! (1974 Transept Organ)....in fairness, it sounds OK on its' own, but this confirms what I stated, that these very large instruments are really often a collection of unrelated instruments controlled from a telephone exchange. (Combination action) That really amazes me, but then, I should have realised this when I once studied the spec, shouldn't I? Silly me! In effect, although it is a classical organ, the stop-key duplications must have been similar to that of a theatre organ, where voices are duplexed on more than one manual. I bet that gets the classical folk confused! Anyway, West Point is there, it's huge, it's unique and above all it works. I guess it's like an old Chevrolet Impala; completely OTT, but somehow adorable in all its' excess. MM

==================== When was Larry Phelps involved at Mother Church, Boston? Did I play it pre-Phelps or post-Phelps I wonder? I think the year was 1982-ish.....it impressed me anyway. MM

=============================== Apart from the fact that the blood-supply must be severly restricted by playing at an upwards angle in excess of 45 degrees and with fingers at head-level, I guess a 7-manual console is "comfortable." It may have been more sensible to have an underfloor goldfish bowl, a revolving Howard Seat and two-manual levels surrounding the organist through 360 degrees. It would probably be ergonomically rather better. Personally, I find 5-manuals a bit of a problem, because I start skidding on the keys, no matter how well positioned the top manual may be. However, back to "artistic concept," which is where the American behemoths depart from the traditions of the organ and even from the organs built in America a generation before. As Atlantic City is more or less impossible to assess, perhaps we should look at West Point NJ.....easily the largest church instrument in the world. It is a vast instrument by any standards, and probably has one or more of just about everything ever voiced. However, there is use of considerable extension, which may be musically acceptable in the hands of a true master, but far less musically satisfactory is the nature of the total package, which has grown and grown over the years. What, I ask, is the point of having "baroque" section on a symphonic instrument such as this, and why did they feel it necessary to buy them from Stinkens in Holland? I am not faulting the individual ranks or the voicing, but questioning the whole concept of an instrument where sheer size and testosterone rule the day. That is NOT something which is apparent at Liverpool Cathedral, St.Paul's Cathedral or the Royal Albert Hall (why do we always forget Norwich?). In these places, the organs have been thought out, properly executed and are of a piece musically, just as so many Skinner organs are, or at least were. There is an aristocratic beauty about original Skinner organs, and a lot to commend those of Aeolian-Skinner and the work of G.Donald-Harrison. I think anyone who sits at one or the other would immediately recognise this, and the music will reflect the basic respect an organist will feel for the instrument. Perhaps the final answer is right there in America, with the superb organ at St.John-the-Divine, NY, now in storage I understand, following the fire. It is quite a "small" instrument by US standards, but it is definitely one of the best. Forget the State Trumpet.....it's a wonderful party-horn, but not the thing which separates this organ from others. Like the Willis organ at Liverpool Cathedral, it has musical integrity. It's very difficult to admire the dress-sense of a homelss tramp (hobo), but at least there is a good reason for it. I don't see how anyone who is a musician can admire an organ which is "mix and match" at best, and only "pick and mix" at worst. MM

======================== MM

========================= I think I would have to be an Echo Dulciana....different to the main-stream, quiet, refined and despised by all except Pierre. I would mix only with mine own and may even be able to play away in a dark box, far from the public gaze. Some would want to cut me down to size and make me half or even two-thirds a being, but that's life as an organ stop! Conformity comes at a price. In my (almost) silent contempt for all things bogus or pseudo-religious, I would ensure that my tenor G was always slightly off-speech and slow to respond. In my stillness and calm, I would despise anything loud, muscular and offensive; especially if called Tuba Magna, but that's another story........ Of course, I would have to be a heavily nicked, full set of teeth, high-pressure Skinner Echo Dulciana. Just when people were about to yank me out from the foot-holes, I would bite very hard and take them by surprise! Coming to think of it, being a Dulciana at all, is probably the second most persistent profession in the organ world. We've been around for a very long-time and survived many changes of fortune and the odd holocaust. Some day I intend to mount an Echo Dulciana Cornet and then wed myself to it. MM

======================== Aaaaaw! Erzahlers at last! Just in case Steven gets the wrong idea, I have an enormous respect for E M Skinner and the work he did. Only a few organ-builders ever get to make such a uniqe contribution to voicing and national styles: people like Silbermann, Schnitger, Walcker, Muller, Cavaille-Coll, Fr.Willis, Arthur Harrison....they (and others) were the ones who produced the extraordinary richness and variety in all our lives. There is something so utterly lavish, if not a little decadent, about listening to organ-music whilst chomping a Waldorf Salad at Lord & Taylor's surrounded by crystal chandeliers. There is something special about Haarlem, Liverpool Cathedral or the Grecian splendour of St.George's Hall and that immense, brooding instrument which dominates the interior. Certain organs sum up an age as well as a nationality.....WurliTzer were at the forefront of American showmanship, and E M Skinner and his team were so very, very good at what they did, which is why I was interested to learn the general view about the G.Donald-Harrison organ at Riverside and the changes made to it. Steven admits that he doesn't know what the new Tuba Mirabilis sounds like at Riverside, so I can provide a link to how it sounds. Also, for those who have reservations about the symphonic-style, the JAV recording site has a free excerpt from a remarkable recording made by Thomas Murray at Yale, in which he describes and demonstrates some of the unique and very beautiful ranks to be heard there. I once played the huge instrument of the Christian Science Mother Church, Boston, and marvelled at it, even though everything I know should have reacted against it. So, enjoy the big Tuba at Riverside and gasp at the beauty of the Skinner registers at Yale University. http://www.pipeorgancds.com/thommurplayw1.html http://www.pipeorgancds.com/onsumev.html MM

========================== Well, this is always going to be one of those unanswered questions I suspect, because there is a certain dichotomy of views from them who should know or might have known, and which I think amused the late Julian Rhodes. There was the story as told by Aubrey Thompson-Allen (AGGO-RCCO magazine 1973) that Willis met Senator Emerson Richards, and that he ordered a "Brass Trumpet" on seeing the photographs etc. Aubrey Thompson-Allen was unaware, so he claimed, that the rank was made by Wurlitzer, but when he found out he never informed Willis. Then there is another version, which claims that Willis threw out the shallots and tongues and replaced them.....but then, Willis 3 WOULD have claimed that, wouldn't he? Henry Anton Gottfried claimed that he recalled the rank being voiced by his father. Ian Bell suggests that "Whatever HWIII may have claimed for the shallots later, they are definitely not Willis." Others, including Stephen Bicknell, suggest that the rank is but a standard Wurlitzer Post Horn, but then, that is not the same as a Wurlitzer Brass Trumpet. Apparently, if it is a Wurlitzer register, then the pipes should have a brass sleeve for the tuning-wire, and apparently they do not; suggesting Gottfried rather than Wurlitzer. HOWEVER...... ......it may well be that Gottfried got his spun-brass tubes from Wurlitzer, who were also noted builders (makers?) of Band Organs, which in the UK we call Fair Organs. These ALWAYS have highly polished and laquered spun-brass tubes, so there may be more than a grain of truth in this, unless they came as second-hand Gavioli items!! Ah! The joys of endless (pointless?) research. The simple fact is, the Trompette Militaire at St.Paul's is a very American-style trumpet which came from America, and all things considered, there probably wasn't a lot to choose between one and t'other supplier. It remains a superb reed! Now who was that German gentleman who voiced Cavaille-Coll's reeds for him? MM

============================ I recall that the bottom two manuals are full piano-size keyboards, but I may be wrong. However, as we are discussing SIZE, and it clearly matters to some people, the Boardwalk Hall (Atlantic City Convention Hall, NJ) seats 17,000 people and the interior roof area is no less than 4 acres....a whole upside-down farm! I guess that makes it about twice the size of the RAH in London, which manages to survive on a mere musical diet of 9,999 pipes. Double that, and have bits of organ scattered around the building, and 19,998 pipes would be sufficient, surely? They may be able to fly helicopters around the hall, but I can tell you that they have regular midget-car racing there, which must do the organ leather-work a whole lot of good! (I like midget-car racing!) I wonder what the seals and valves are like on the 100" Grand Ophicleide? At least the midget-car men would probably understand the gravity of blowing a gasket on the C-side! MM