ajt
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Posts posted by ajt
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This might be the case when your ISGs are working perfectly, but how often is this the case? At Liverpool recently, pedals that were theoretically allocatable proved to be otherwise, and proceeded to sulk and do unexpected things until the switchplate positions were put back to the previous status quo.
This is a case of splendid engineering and a clever idea not being (in the final analysis) nearly so easy to use and maintain as a simple lever.
Surprisingly, given the lack of major maintenance on my beast, the ISG's are working fine - noisy, but fine. The switch plate works fine - I used it only this morning to put both Sw and Ch on the same pedal.
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Have any other contributors been unnerved by the siting of a console? I believe Chester Cathedral is similar in this respect.
Chester's a doddle. Lichfield I find a little unnerving if the curtains are open, but it is in a fantastic position for accompany in the choir stalls.
I played once at a church in Staffordshire - can't even remember where - where the organ console was on a stone/concrete shelf somewhere above the choir stalls, with your back facing into the church. All that was behind you was a about 8" of stone, then a low chain. I was petrified.
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On my recent visit to Lichfield accesss to the organ loft was via a stone-built staircase within the north wall adjacent to the north transept. It stikes me now that this is somewhat unusual. Except for examples of stone-built pulpitum staircases (eg. Exeter) , what other examples are there of organ loft access built into the masonary of british catherdrals?
Wasn't Truro's original console accessed by spiral stone steps?
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Getting back to the original email - how about this for a candidate for the worst opener of all (this was Ash Wednesday); choir process in, nice gentle organ music, moment of silence, then the Vicar says "Hi Folks, welcome to Lent".....
I have since resigned from that church!
The other week we had a very well read Gospel - lots of drama and gravitas. So I plump for a big fanfare (pcnd, look away now) - tubas and full organ, finishing on a massive chord with everything out (but released just before the wind died!). The vicar says - "Oooh, I'm not sure how to follow that". One of my more sarcastic choir gents mutters "Sit down and shut up then."
I dunno - I've gone to the trouble of trying to build up a sense of occasion that fits with the mood of the service, and it gets totally trashed by a comment like that. I'm sure the frustration goes both ways, though...
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I gather that at the weekend the heating at Christ Church, Oxford failed. The Clerk of Works brought in some of those jet-engine-like gas heaters and put them at the west end, behind the organ. So their full output went up into the back of the organ which I am led to believe is now unplayable; and the piano's gone out of tune too...
Paul
Heat? In a church? Whatever next? Next you'll tell me that some churches have congregations, too...
This sounds all too familiar - in my place we just don't have real heat. Except about twice a year, when the vicar discovers that the heating hasn't worked for a couple of days, so sticks it on continuous on a Saturday morning. Result - church goes from about -5 to +24 overnight. Bloody marvellous.
Seriously - the church is unheated during the week - the vestry is maintained at 12 degrees, which is the temperature at which we're required to do choir practice, but that's it.
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Perhaps it is a “bit invidious for us to try naming our best bets in public”, but why not?
I appreciate that there are some fine directors that aren’t in first division cathedrals but then (sorry Truro) I never considered Truro as a first division cathedral. What I do know is that Robert has really moved the choir on since he took up post. Whilst the choir there was never a sow’s ear, it has defiantly moved up a notch. This is of course, only my opinion. Others may (and probably will) disagree with me completely.
I don't know how much the choir has moved on since Nethsingha, but it doesn't surprise me that Robert has done good things there - he's very very good.
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Would you specify a Clarion in a new Swell (or Great)? Opinions please?
Depends on the size of the rest of the instrument, but yes, I would. A good firey 4' reed is a wonderful thing. I have 2 Clarions (sw + gt) on my own instrument - I often leave the gt 8' reed in, and just use 16+4 - the 8' is a bit too smooth, whereas the 16+4 is good growling blast.
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That would have stirred up this morning's Eucharist - our congregation find sharing the Peace a bit radical!
Ah, you need to track down Mrs Beamish by Stilgoe and Skellern then...
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A mighty meale of Poggett steade dide wonte us toe London we wend.
R
Which particular drug were you using for this post? Can I have some?
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The McEwan Hall (University of Edinburgh) (see NPOR link) here in Edinburgh still has its ISG pedals. The IV/62 organ was built by Hope-Jones in 1897, rebuilt by Willis in 1953 (when the current console with ISG pedals to Choir, Swell and Solo was fitted) and overhauled by Rushworth & Dreaper in 1980.
The ISG mechanism works perfectly on the Choir (probably due to minimal use) but is tired and needing overhaul on the Swell. It won't shut any faster than a crawl, and it will only open at either a creep or 100mph! All part of the fun, however! Once you get the hang of it it's very useful. I think it would be a great pity to lose them - they seem to be part and parcel of the 1953 console, with all its coupler gadgetry.
Andrew Caskie
Excellent - I wasn't aware of this. I agree - if I ever get the money to get my place rebuilt, the ISG's are definitely staying.
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David, now that you're a toaster convert
, an interesting comparison would be between a custom makin/wyvern/phoenix and a C-H. The former could be specified with decent keyboards (wood-core, like the C-H) and proper sound systems, and the price would still be well below C-H - sampling technology is inherently cheaper, especially now with low memory prices allowing storage of vast amounts of data. As far as mixtures go, I am convinced that the important factor is the ability to adjust individual notes of individual ranks for volume and tuning . Not every system allows this.
JJK
You mean latter, surely - i.e. Phoenix do wood keyboards, etc.
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Dare I say by playing it musically? As I have suggested before, harpsichord players manage to make Bach sound musical without changing the tone colour every minute or so. Why should it be different for an organist? "Have stops, will change?"
Completely agree. Simplicity is the key to Bach - he creates his own colours and textures. Get the phrasing right, and it speaks for itself.
Too many performances butcher the lines - I remember one of my teachers (who I had for the longest as a teenager) always banging on about playing Bach completely legato. What a load of old bollocks.
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Which installation? (There were two at Gloucester, one on either side of the pulpitum.)
Strangely (and DB agreed with me) the Rodgers in the Quire (three claviers) did not respond to the acoustic in the same way that the pipe organ does there. On releasing a chord held on the full 'organ' the resonance was appreciably shorter and seemed less 'full', for want of a better description.
In the Quire. As I recall, the speaker installation was in a totally different place from the pipes - I think they were in a stack in one of the transepts, but can't really remember.
I'm not saying it was as good as the real thing, but it was considerably better than any other installation I'd ever heard.
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However, as I have mentioned before, the reeds on both of these instruments reign supreme. They neither need nor appear to welcome the addition of the mixtures. Whilst these mixtures can be heard, they do not serve to strengthen the reeds or, for that matter, effectively to form a bridge between the reeds and the 8p, 4p and 2 diapasons; once the reeds are drawn, everything else is very much of an 'also-ran'.
I think what I am trying to say, is that it is a little like attempting to fit wheels to a tomato.
I am not knowledgable about mixtures at all. But, on my own instrument, I have 3 mixtures, the GO one is a tierce - 17|19|22 - which I find to be a chocolate teapot, and 2 on the swell - 12|15|19|22 and 24|26|29. The IV rank on the swell is wonderful - just adds a bit of brightness and colour, and can be drawn with or without the reeds. The III rank, though, is brash and breaks all over the place, and can really only be drawn with the reeds.
What's so bad about a tierce mixture - serious question ; I know a lot of people don't like them - why?
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Surely analogue systems record at an infinite sampling rate where as digital records at a finite sampling rate? Infinite sampling must equate to more “data” than finite? I’ll say no more because as you say, this isn’t the place to discuss this subject at depth.
I don't know about the sampling rate itself - but the whole reason people go with digital is to do with a combination of signal to noise ratio and frequency response.
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Choral tradition? We're talking tiny parish church here. I can think of countless local situations where a piano would have been infinitely more satisfactory than the 3 manual electronic that was purchased (but nowhere near as satisfactory as the small 1 or 2 manual pipe job that was sacrificed to make way for it), considerably longer lasting and more reliable. I'm not sure a digital job will do that much to encourage new organists either - they usually make me want to give up.
I think that in general, small, good quality instruments are an acquired taste - for a start you need to have gathered enough experience to be able to tell a good instrument from a bad one. I for one, throughout my teenage years and probably later, would have preferred 3 mediocre but large divisions to 2 excellent but tiny divisions.
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Moving away from the idea of installation in this particular church, but rather to digital organs in general for a minute -
Ironically, I think that digital organs sound better in a big building, where they're less likely to be encountered as permanent installations - I had a tinkle (not literally, that would be silly, given the electrics involved) on the Rodgers that was in Gloucester for a bit, and the Makin in Lichfield in 2000, and both of these sounded not too bad, but the console was about 50 feet away from the speaker installations.
But, in a church with a smaller acoustic and dimension, where you can't get a sufficient distance away from the speaker installation to minimise the acoustic differences between pipe and speaker reproduction of pipe, I've usually found them unsatisfactory.
Paul Isom - if you're still lurking - I know you spent a lot of time on the Arundel Wyvern installation, and recorded a CD on it, which I have (Wyvern demo disc?)... What's your opinion? I listened to that CD in the car this morning, and thought that some of it sounded convincing, but that the 4' and mixture tones were a bit off (I can't put my finger on why). Do you think the CD is a fair reflection of the tonal work of the Wyvern that was installed? I assume it was recorded in a "normal" way - i.e. not an audio output straight from the console, but a mic somewhere down the nave?
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O come on, that's taking anti-digital predjudice just too far. Yes, we could fill in with a piano for a month or two during a rebuild, but its not really the right instrument to provide colourful accompaniment to our rich choral tradition and its hardly going to keep skilled organists satisfied for very long.
And doesn't encourage new organists...
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So, once again we hear of an item or items eminating from the Willis firm which had not been paid for. Not a good way of doing business !
I am informed that Liverpool Cathedral are very happy with David Wells, so sarcastic inuendos are hardly helpful. from the Willis firm.
Colin Richell.
What sarcastic innuendi?
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How about a hybrid. A 2 or 3 clavier toaster with an 842 chorus on it, that can be detached from within the console and wheeled around as a chamber organ.
I have no experience of hybrids, but they always sound like a recipe for disaster to me - anyone got any experience of them?
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Fair enough, but would you really want to play a one-manual chamber organ, with all the limitations that imposed on repertoire, over an extended period of time. And what if there was a choir, this would seriously restrict the instrument's accompanimental possibilities.
Precisely what I've been trying to get at - I wouldn't want to play a 1m organ all the time, and I'm sure that no other half decent organist would either - i.e. the kind of organist that a "thriving" church (in an Anglican kind of way - the average age of the congregation is lower than the total number of occupied pews) wants to attract.
This makes an interesting moral dilemma - I thought my preference would always be for pipe. But, if the choice is 1m, 5 rank extension pipe versus 2m, 20 stop electronic, I think I'd be plumping for the organ substitute, just because I could do a lot more with it.
So, given that my role in this is not that of organist, but as an advisor to a decision maker, what the hell do I say? I still can't quite reconcile recommending 15-20k on a digital organ when that same amount of money would probably get them a nice reliable tracker redundant organ cleaned up and installed - the tracker will probably still be going strong in 50 years, but they'd be on their 3rd or 4th digital by then. Oh, but then I'm back to the lack of space for a good size instrument argument. And then I'm back to the 1m tiny thing versus a flexible digital organ. Oh damn it. I've tied myself up in circles again.
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All things considered, if you have room anywhere Adrian, go for a pipe organ - even an extension instrument.
That's exactly the problem - there is NO room anywhere. My preference, by far is to go far an instrument, rather than a substitute. No offence to those who like them, but I just don't enjoy playing digital instruments, whether pianos or organs. I never have - the physical sensation of playing is not the same, and the physical sensation of listening is definitely not the same.
Failing that - are you sure that things are that bad where you are? Vicars can change, get run over on the M27 - or simply become Lithuanian. Rich old ladies with a fondness for large Willis organs can die and leave all their money to an organ restoration fund - "Just as long as that nice young man is still in charge of the music here..."After all, you do have a 32p reed, a reasonable echo and a mini-bar....
Unfortunately, yes - this thread wasn't supposed to be about me thinking about moving on, but...
I have nothing against the vicar of St. Mary's, at all - he's a good guy, and prepared to listen.
My reasons for thinking about moving on are around the fact that i) I don't enjoy the church, ii) I don't realistically think that there's any chance of raising the money to restore the organ, iii) my wife doesn't like the place, iv) my primary interest is in choirs, v) leaving isn't the same as not having keys to go in and make a loud noise
vi) it's a half hour to go practice, and, with a 9 week old baby, I don't go and practice on it.My reasons for staying are i) great organ, ii) great organ, iii) great organ, iv) I feel like a failure for not having made a difference.
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Oh, Adrian, you're not already thinking of moving from St. Mary's!?!
What sort of Organist is this church after? My mind boggles a bit from your note.
What do organists look for when looking for a job? Well, a number of random things spring to my mind: a vicar I get on with and respect, a healthy and friendly congregation (healthy in all ways, preferable), a friendly and enthusiastic choir, well run administration, solvent finances, etc, etc. In a nutshell, I would want somewhere I look forward to going to on a Sunday.
My point is the organ is only one factor for a prospective organist, and a factor that can be changed if other factors are favourable. In your situation, I would leave the organ as it is for now and suggest to the church that it may be better to hint at the possibility of an organ project to prospective organists, rather than present them with a solution they may not like and have little likelihood of changing. That will appeal to many more organists, whether they would prefer a 7 stop Brombaugh in meantone temperament or a 90 stop Copeman Hart with "French" voicing.
The problem your friend may have is the fear of the unknown and what this new organist may want. In this case, I would give your friend some advice on how to run an organ project, in particular getting good quality, professional, impartial and responsible advice for the church.
Yes, I am already thinking about leaving St. Mary's - I'll explain why via e-mail, but you've hit on many of the points in your 2nd paragraph.
I think your response highlights many of the issues that concern me about speccing and organ for this place. My main concern is that, if I were going for the job, I would want to have an instrument that I wanted to play and could play a reasonable quantity of repertoire on. The space available in the church leaves you, I think, with a realistic pipe organ size of 1m, 8 4 2 + Bourdon. Even with extension, I think you'd struggle to get much more in, and if that was the organ in the church, then I probably wouldn't want the job.
Your instrument for example - which, despite my disparaging comments about it not being as powerful as I would want for your church, would be well suited to this particular church - would not fit.
I'm pretty certain that the church wouldn't make any decision until they've appointed a new organist.
What I was hoping to discuss on this thread was whether it would be wrong of me, if I applied for and was given the job to:
1) Recommend a digital organ
2) Spec up the digital organ such that it was larger than a "suitable" pipe organ for the same building. I don't mean stupidly big, which I think the current spec is.
I just find it hard to reconcile recommending that a digital organ is the way to go, plus I'm always critical of others when I go to a small church to find a 3 manual beast with a 32ft reed and a tuba...
Clearly, it's not going to be my advice that really counts - there are others in more official positions and with more knowledge (e.g. the DOA) - but the vicar does put value on my opinion.
, an interesting comparison would be between a custom makin/wyvern/phoenix and a C-H. The former could be specified with decent keyboards (wood-core, like the C-H) and proper sound systems, and the price would still be well below C-H - sampling technology is inherently cheaper, especially now with low memory prices allowing storage of vast amounts of data. 
vi) it's a half hour to go practice, and, with a 9 week old baby, I don't go and practice on it.
Swell Shutters
in Nuts and bolts
Posted
Just sits there looking mournful and unloved.