ajt
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Posts posted by ajt
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The Biggs v. Fox debate is as relevant to-day as it was 40 years ago!
Ronnie Biggs?
I think I belong to a strange minority in that if I were going to a concert, I'd probably prefer to be entertained in a Virgil Fox kind of way, but, to sit down and listen to some music in my own space and time, I'd rather hear a more "serious" interpretation.
I don't know if that makes me shallow, but I tend to find organ recitals bore me rigid - I can only recall 2 that I've been to that I've really enjoyed ; one was Andrew Lumsden re-opening the organ at Lichfield, the other was by a member of this discussion board.
I think it has something to do with expectations and mood. I sit at home and think, "Hmm, I feel like listening to xxx right now", but at a concert, I don't know what I'm getting - it may not be relevant to me at that time in that place.
Does that make ANY sense?
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No problem with debate. You're simply slinging mud and abuse at anyone who disagrees with you; that's something else. Considered Irish politics?
I'm afraid, Lee, that I agree with David - you are perfectly entitled to your opinions, and I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing with you on anything... But... I really think you owe Stephen Farr an apology ; there was no call to make what seemed like a personal attack on him, and I'm rather astounded to read your criticism of his professionalism in a later reply - the man was remarkably professional, and, I felt, diplomatic in the face of a personal attack which would have had me coming back with a chainsaw and a baseball bat had I been on the receiving end.
Like I say, I'm not knocking your opinions, merely the way you expressed them.
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Hang on. Are you saying that the chancel is only 8 ft wide and the walls are only 8 ft high, supporting a barrel-shaped roof? Or have I completely misunderstood? How wide is it? I'm almost inclined to suggest a harmonium.
Having looked at some pics, my 8ft high estimate is rather on the "low" side. Looks like nearer 12, which makes life a bit easier. My memory is clearly faulty...
Here's a floor plan of the church:
and a pic of the nave
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Only one word of warning: make sure you allow decent access to everything in the organ chamber. It would be worth having fewer ranks and making the job easier to maintain.
Thanks for the thoughts - extension is certainly a consideration, but I'm still wondering where the hell to put it, and worrying about whether such an instrument would entice the kind of DoM that they want...
The bit I didn't mention, having waffled enough already, was that the roof is basically barrel shaped, starting at about 8ft, and there is very very little available wall space to hang an organ off, and no floor space, except where the current console is, to stand one...
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A friend of mine runs a church that has a late 80's, disgusting sounding, over large, 3 manual Copeman Hart in it, with the most ugly speaker installation I've ever seen.
The church probably seats about 150, maybe even 200.
It's a peculiar shape building in that it's not really got any transepts - it has a very very narrow sanctuary/choir (8ft or so), and an aisle on the North side which is as wide as the nave.
The old pipe organ used to be in a vaulted chamber underneath the tower (arches into the choir and into the south side of the nave), but this space is now in use.
There isn't really any usable space in the church to put a pipe organ.
My question is, what would you do?
As I see it, the options are:
1. Build a small pipe organ, say Bourdon plus 8/9 manual stops over 2 manuals, and try to shoehorn it in somewhere.
2. Get the existing toaster modernised
3. Get a new toaster, with a small spec to suit the church, as if speccing a pipe organ for the building
4. Get a new toaster, with a larger spec.
Working on the basis that money's no object, I still can't decide what the "right" thing to do would be.
Installing a pipe organ would be a shoehorn job - I can't think of anywhere obvious to install anything more than a box/chamber organ.
I also can't decide whether going with a smaller spec organ, as befits the size of the building, is the right thing to do, or to go with a larger spec (digital, of course) for vanity's sake... Would the church attract the kind of Director of Music it wants (position vacant from Christmas) if the organ is "small" ?
Quandary...
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Can do, I think the PMZs are discontinued, but they do crop on ebay and are worth seeking out. They are wierd as well, they record everything above like a dome, so have ideally to go below what is being recorded or face directly. I also recorded my choristers and had them at head height, so the organ ( obviously higher) came out too loud, when in fact it was very soft
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I think you can still get the cheaper Tandy PZM's from ebay for not a huge amount. The more expensive Crown ones still fetch £200 or so.
I'd heard that a good arrangement for them was to have a /\ formation (except less of an accute angle) on wood/mdf sheets, with the point of the /\ facing the sound source...
Any ideas?
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I have done a lot of recording in past years, and still do so at my own church. I picked up a couple of flat plate PMZs yonks ago and the frequency response is superb, also clarity. I also use a pre amp. Then straight onto a CDR. I have always sought permission from whoever I have recorded, and assured that such recordings are for private use only. Most will accede to the request and are very good about it. Conversely, one guy recorded me at one of several recitals I did at Parr Hall, Warrington, and was right up front holding a mic in his hand pointing right at me, without permission.
Beat that for a brass neck!!R
Funnily enough, I've been looking at getting some PZM's to record the organ in my church before it crumbles completely - there is a Wayne Marshall CD, but it only really shows off the loud bits of the organ.
Have you got any samples kicking around that I could hear? I'd be interested in hearing samples of choirs too...
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So how do I get people to actually put information, and not just "organ sounds a bit funny today"? Bearing in mind the influences could be anything from the weather to a powercut last week that took out the humidifier to someone leaving an electric fire on or virtually anything else under the sun.
I would suggest that the most helpful bit of data that can be recorded would be:
"What was the organ doing or having done to it at the time?" i.e. under what circumstances did the fault arise.
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You could do, but I suspect that having all the information available to hand would be pretty close to the top, and that's somewhere the titulaire is going to have the advantage over someone who spends perhaps 10-20 hours a year in the place.
That's the whole point of the methodology - knowing what data is required to fix any problem.
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Fair enough I suppose about intermittent/one off faults. I personally find that they are often easier to trace if a seperate sheet of paper is kept with the date of each occurrence. Then, I can use my brain and over time see what factors may be influencing that - the central heating switch person's regular weekend off, morning after the cleaners come in, whatever it might be - rather than sending the tuner off on a wild goose chase in pursuit of a slider that sometimes sticks and sometimes doesn't, or whatever it might be.
Perhaps I should offer a course in rational problem solving for organ builders? (Rational problem solving being something I teach as part of my day job)
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Yes, and some of us were at least around in the late 60s and 70s and witnessed it being done properly even then, let alone the golden earlier decades! Personally I value witnessing such experts beyond measure. I only wish I had been about in the earlier 50s and further back. To me, current training is often nothing more than an apology.
Are you talking Cathedral, Parish church or what here?
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If we are to suggest that intermittent faults are not to be put in the organ log, which normally covers everything, and is (or should be) a full history of a particular job, then perhaps the parish magazine, local newspaper or big issue may prove a favourable alternative.
R
Why wouldn't you put intermittent faults in the book?
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Some concise instructions could usefully be given on how to record faults - any contributions?
Object/Defect - i.e. a short statement of what is wrong with what.
IF... an intermittent fault, then a description of what you were doing at the time, or, even better, describe how to replicate.
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I've just had a very enjoyable day accompanying choral evensong in Lichfield, an instrument I've not had the opportunity to play before. I don' recall it having cropped up much, if at all, in previous discussions of favourite instruments in this country, but it struck me as a very fine and coherent instrument, and a superb instrument on which to accompany a choral service.
I'd be interested to hear other peoples views.
I've not played it since the rebuild, but I had the priviledge of living 10 feet away from it and using it as a practice instrument, hearing it almost every day for evensong, and occasionally singing to it. Prior to that I had a few lessons on it whilst still at school.
I love it. There are a few quirks on it, like some of the solo stuff speaking away from the console/player, which can be slightly mind-bending, but in general it's a delight to play.
Unfortunately the only recordings I've got of it are commercial ones (Robert Sharpe & Andrew Lumsden), so I can't post samples...
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Left - definitely.
It feels really funny doing it with your right hand.
Best of all, is somebody else's hand....
We are talking about page turning, right?
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My personal preference for teaching choirs diction is to let them sing what comes naturally, then correct the unnatural or ugly sounds that arise from time to time, rather than be totally prescriptive about it.
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I deplore the present trend for 'professional' singers and the 'professionally-trained' group to sing the letter i as an e - him becomes heem, sisters becomes 'seesters' - which only makes me think of street traders in Tunisia trying to peddle naughty postcards.
Yup. Anyone got the St. John's Stanford CD on Naxos? The treble soloist has some very "interesting" vowel sounds in the Mag in G...
{Edit}
Lovely tone, but what the hell does Seeuhviuh mean?
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to all those young choirmasters who clearly don't know how it was (properly) done, or can be.
I know I'm no expert, but comments like that get my back up a bit - probably contributes to my slightly aggresive attitude in other postings on this thread - why do you think young choirmasters should be any more or less ignorant than the older generation? I would suggest that "young" choirmasters probably know an awful lot more about the physiology of singing and boys' voices than any previous generation.
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Why on earth not just sing "Jesus" as "Jesus" and let natural good deliberate speech diction speak for itself, rather than having all these nonsense contrived consonants?
Totally agree. Sort the vowels out, the rest, largely, looks after itself.
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I played it before the recent resotration too, and I completely agree with you!
It was an early J.W.W. 'back-to-tracker' job, and it featured more metal collars per note than I've ever seen anywhere else. Bear in mind that a metal collar weighs four times as much as a leather button and add the fact that the console was sited a little way out from the case front (with all the extra action that such a move requires) and you'll understand why it was so heavy. The builders (I assume) didn't realise how much extra mass they were adding to the finger workload.
Blimey. Has it been "improved" since? Last time I was in St. John's, they had a Rodgers instrument down the front too, but that's because the DoM was/is technical director for Rodgers.
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Not forced or damaging. Really a very natural way of singing.
Fair enough. I don't dislike the sound particularly, but I'd rather hear, as pcnd said, modern day Winchester or John's, or even King's.
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The Virgil Fox Phenomenon
in General discussion
Posted
Me too. Which begs the question - what were you defending and how did you get away with it?