Philip
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Posts posted by Philip
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Well I'm not sure I'd have anything to submit - I use the Rawsthorne book plus occasionally the blue RSCM book which contains the well-renowned How setting of Lo, he comes (I even make them up sometimes, or more commonly adapt the Rawsthorne settings) - but I would certainly be interested in seeing what others have put together or use, and would be happy to make a charity donation of the amount suggested to do so.
I'm sure that others may be in a similar situation to me, not having anything in particular to offer but wanting to view the finish article. I certainly hope that this doesn't 'die in the water'!
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Of course, you are right - he just makes it look so easy!
Well I'll see what I can manage.
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This is what I was wondering. I tried this afternoon and it was absolutely no good in the shoes I'm currently using to play in (which are more like slippers, which can't be any good for technique - but I'm used to them!) which have virtually no heel. However, in bare feet I got the impression it might work. I've got plenty of time to work on the piece - I was just having a first bash through. If I can manage it all and it sounds right, then I certainly will include it.
Edit:
From what I can tell the organist here is adopting precisely Stephen's method.
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Thanks for this...although I almost feel it has added to my confusion!
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Thanks Vox. The issue of shoes is actually another I was going to raise at some point - I may well acquire some organmaster shoes shortly then.
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As mentioned elsewhere: Guilmant - Finale to No. 1
and I started the thread about the Cortege et Litanie last Advent, and will now finally get round to starting it!
These will be my two biggies for this quarter - I try to accomplish a few major additions to my rep each year. Hopefully, the Guilmant will be done by Easter, and Easter morning would be a fine time to give it its first performance! If not, there's always the Widor!
I really think its difficult to set specific targets though - you just have to see what you can manage really.
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I don't play the piece myself as there are 7 other Sonatas to choose from but what I would say is be careful to get the correct edition - there have been many other interpretations of Guilmant's work which are not always accurate. I have more info if you are interested....
Thanks for this. The edition I have is by Wayne Leupold - it contains both the second and third editions of the sonata (the third being written for a four as opposed to three-manual organ, as well as having details such as slurs and articulation added). He says in the foreward that both are photographic reproductions of original scores, and that he has only edited obvious mistakes. It also contains a quite substantial blurb, with articles about Guilmant and his music, which allude to the fact that some people started making (illegal) copies of Guilmant's work while he was still alive.
My main reason for purchasing this edition - Foyles had it at half price in their sale! Although doubtless the information provided at the start is of some interest.
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I've decided to make this my next big piece to learn, having done the Widor Toccata for this first time recently.
Any specific tips as I begin? Particularly I was wondering how to treat the triple pedalling in the final section. Should it be played as written (if so, how?), or should I leave out one of the notes, or does it not matter?
As always, all advice gratefully received!
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I have been pondering the question of what makes a good descant. As I have hinted before, descants that are blatantly contrapuntal rarely seem to work. On the other hand, Willcocks's O come is not exactly homophonic yet works wonderfully. Why does this one work so well, whereas other fail dismally? I think Philip had put his finger on it above. I feel sure that the key is that Willcock's O come doesn't go overboard. The counterpoint is fairly light-touch and not systematic throughout the verse; much of the time it is actually fairly simple. Perhaps the crucial thing is that it doesn't detract from the tune. Surely a good descant (like a good last-verse harmonisation) should adorn and enhance the tune (and the words). A descant may be subservient to the tune and work; it may be an equal partner to the tune and work; but in either case the tune must remain the focus. I think the minute the descant begins to assume a greater prominence it will draw attention away from the tune and the hymn will be likely to fall apart. The trouble with contrapuntal descants is that the composer often tries to create a line that is too independent, so that instead of the descant partnering and illuminating the tune, it ends up fighting it. In short, they are too clever by half. I'm not sure this is the whole of the explanation, but it's a working hypothesis.
Yeah, I'd agree with that. The climax points in the descant are reached on 'Glory' (just wonderful, isn't it?!) and 'Christ the Lord' at the end, which seem appropriate places, both musically and lyrically. Therefore the words are matched well. I wonder how many of the descants we see churned out are written without one look at the words? The harmony (where altered) is exciting without being offputing. Having heard the Ledger descant this year, it is alright until it resolves to a chord of G major on 'God' (where the Willcocks reverts to B major), and that just kills it for me, it loses all the excitement.
If you're going to a descant, then it has to actually add something i.e. it has to be more than just the trebles singing some notes above the top line - it needs to lift the tune for the last verse, add some excitement - otherwise why bother? However, it needs to do this without being too clever and making the tune impossible to sing at the same time. As with so many things, its a delicate balance!
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The new Cleobury descants for Once in Royal and While Shepherds Watched are included in the new Novello collection called something like Christmas at King's College - there are several other new descants and a chief feature of (as far I can remember) all of them is that there are choir harmony parts to go underneath the actual descants. I am not keen on any of them, I'm sorry to say - but these things have a habit of growing on one. I enjoy SC's previous descants very much and I also recall King's using a splendid descant for O Little Town by Andrew Carter about 18 years ago - sadly it was only used the one year but it is super and I recommend it. I had to get it direct from the composer and don't think it has ever been published formally.
Yes, this caught my eye in Foyles's today. The O come and Hark the herald are also included, along with a selection of choir carols (including a number of commissions). It was in the region of £12-£13 if my memory serves me correctly.
I also noticed the underlying parts to the descant, although I think one of them will probably take the tune. I am yet to be convinced on them though - somewhat over the top I feel.
As for O little town, I like Thomas Armstrong's one in CFC, which isn't complicated but works. Even SC has used it when they've had it as a congregational carols, which says something.
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I've just listened to the radio broadcast and thought much of it sounded excellent.
What did people think of the commissioned carol? I rather liked it musically, some good word-painting, but I have to say I really don't care for the words.
That descant to Once in Royal did sound new to me too. I rather think it was trying to be flashy, as was the one to While shepherds watched. The Willcocks at the end sounded good without having to try, if you follow. The Willcocks one to While shepherds isn't successful IMO, but as someone earlier commented, the Once in Royal is a simple setting to befit a simple set of words and tune.
I rather like that second voluntary. It would be interesting to see how hard it is.
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I tend to stick to this rule for most things, or do a first and then a last line. There are a few exceptions though - and Hark the herald is one of them, where I've come to believe that a full and loud last line (including pedal notes) does the job better. I don't think it matters when its carols they all know anyway.
Being a sucker for punishment, I tried out the carol service in St Mary's, Nottingham tonight. This time nine lessons, probably not quite the exact King's nine but near enough (and all in traditional language). St Mary's choir on great form, in contrast to last night I knew most of the stuff and it felt much more like Christmas to me. O Holy Night was the personal highlight. My only criticism - we had the somewhat weaker Ledger descants for O come and Hark.
re. msw's post - the choir at my home church back in Hornchurch always do a full nine lessons and carols, Kings-style. I am told that this year there were thirteen choir items, and probably about seven congregational I'd guess. It takes about an hour and three quarters - lets face it, thats only fifteen minutes longer than a somewhat drawn out Sunday morning Eucharist, isn't it, so hardly a massive burden? Oh, and they usually pretty well fill the church (400-500). I do rather think that if you're going to have nine lessons, then the pattern of the Kings service is about the best there is.
Lots of unfamiliar faces in Midnight Mass tonight although it was fairly full. I felt the atmosphere and the congregational singing suffered somewhat though in comparison to a normal Sunday morning. Those who bothered to stay and listen to the Widor were mostly the regular crowd, but at least they appreciated it.
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May I just add briefly to my post last night. I realise that looking back on it it may seem rather negative. I don't want this to be a reflection on Paul Hale or the music team at Southwell who IMO do a wonderful job. Often I am in fact blown away by what they do. Unfortunately this wasn't so yesterday evening, but take it back a couple of weeks and I attended an absolutely superb evensong (Howells St Paul's Service - which to me seemed one of his finer offerings in terms of canticles - and Naylor's excellent Vox Dicentis). On that and many other occasions I have found inspiration from their wonderful music - I simply felt something was missing last night.
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Interesting seeing this discussion in the light of having been to Southwell for the first of their (identical) carol services tonight. It was 'traditional' in the sense of being lessons and carols, but beyond that it was somewhat different.
There were eight lessons (counting them was what brought this discussion to mind), and only four of those came from the traditional nine (two of them being the Shepherds one split in two parts). 3 Old Testament and then 5 Gospel, finishing with John 1 as it rightly should.
The service began with the choir in the quire(!), singing The Truth from Above, before the Bidding Prayer and then a Procession round the Nave to Of the Father's love begotten (if I may so, one of the most underrated carols). Of the choir carols that followed, I knew only two out of ten (and even those I wouldn't call hugely well-known). I would have liked personally to see a few more traditional ones feature; new things are good but there is a balance and I'm not sure this service achieved it. I was rather taken with Carl Rutti's O little town, but I'm not sure too many of the others will stick in the memory. With so little mainstream stuff, it almost didn't feel like a carol service - part of the thing at these occasions is hearing some stuff you know and being able to relate to it, and you hear certain things which tell you its Christmas. With it being a service where non-regulars will be attending, this is perhaps even more important.
Obviously, congregational carols were far more traditional and would have been well-known, and all with Willcocks descants/arrangements. I did have one minor gripe, that being that in O come, all ye faithful and Hark! the herald the repeated notes were treated with a real staccato, presumably in order to keep the large congregation together. I felt it was somewhat overdone, and that with well-known Christmas carols they really ought to be able to keep themselves going. Purely a personal thing I guess, but a touch more legato there for me.
In voluntary terms, it was very traditional though. Lots of Bach and Desseins Eternels in the half-hour before the service and BWV 729 then Mulet's superb Carillon-Sortie to send us out into the snow at the end.
I'm not sure whether your average visitor (non-regular) will bother about whether there are eight lessons, nine lessons, six lessons and so on. I like the nine lessons format, and I think the sequence works well, although making amendments should by no means be discounted. I think what matters is the content of those lessons and that people hear some music they can enjoy and relate to and have a good sing. Tonight we got the third of those things for sure but I wasn't convinced by the first two factors. As I said, it didn't feel to me like a carol service, but perhaps I'm just a bit stuck in my ways (and I'm only 21!).
There is always a balance between tradition and innovation. We shouldn't always be stuck in doing the same thing every year, but the nine lessons format has clearly survived for so long because it works and people appreciate it.
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Merry Christmas to one and all.
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Having proclaimed earlier that I would be doing BWV 729 after the carol service, I then didn't! We were doing a joint service with the Methodists in their church (but me playing) and they had an offering without a hymn so I figured the Bach at about 2 minutes would fit the offering quite well (and it did just that). I sent them home with Carillon de Westminster. Something in me does perhaps think that the Bach is a little bit brief for a big service postlude.
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Possibly - apart from that which he wrote for Once in Royal David's City, which I find to be repetitive, dull, foursquare and greatly inferior to the excellent arrangement by Stephen Cleobury.
Indeed, perhaps SC agrees - he is still using his own setting for Once in Royal, and also for While Shepherds Watched. Certainly the descants to O come and Hark the herald by Willcocks cannot be beaten.
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Thanks MAB for that most enlightening post. I have to say that if I am to venture over there I feel its something that if I don't do it fairly soon I probably never will.
Just to clarify, do I take it that whichever point you're at in the queue you won't get any kind of view? I've never been in the chapel at KC but I'm beginning to picture in my head what its like.
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Each year I look forward to listening to the service but I am frequently disappointed with what I hear. The singing often seems to lack passion and commitment. I feel as though I am listening to technique rather than music.
I wonder if the BBC will ever broadcast the service from a cathedral...?
Thing is the service has such a historic reputation that I sometimes wonder whether something like that can ever really live up to its billing. Perhaps it is difficult to portray the true feeling via the radio. I'm sure there would be a public outcry if the BBC chose to broadcast from somewhere else though.
Maybe one year I'll head over to Cambridge to see if I can actually get in to the service. I have a service on Christmas Eve afternoon this year, but it strikes me as something that would be worth doing, perhaps just the once, just to experience it.
If nothing else, the service pioneers new music, although how many of the commissioned carols have actually survived much beyond their premiere? The one that stands out far above anything else is Rutter's What Sweeter Music, and I think Weir's Illuminare Jerusalem and the Arvo Part one in Russian still get outings. Most of the others are totally unfamiliar to me though, and clearly haven't survived. But then you have things like the Mack Wilberg arrangement of Ding Dong, the Preston Three Ships and so on which perhaps wouldn't have become so well known but for Kings. How many choirs hear a piece done by Kings and then pick it up and do it themselves? David Briggs' organ piece on In Dulci from a couple of years ago seems to have found a fan club if this forum is anything to go by.
I suppose its something which we'd miss if it wasn't there.
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The order of service for this year has been released - see http://www.kings.cam.ac.uk/files/services/...essons-2009.pdf
I was intrigued by the second voluntary as I'd never heard of it. I've done a bit of digging - George Baker is an American and the piece is as yet unpublished (pending, it seems). It is also on youtube - see
. I think it sounds rather good, although I'm not sure what to make of the ending.I notice also the large number of Willcocks arrangements featuring - presumably to honour his 90th birthday this year. Most notably, Stephen Cleobury is using the Willcocks descants for O come all ye faithful and Hark the herald rather than his own. I assume that this is a one-off, although the Willcocks descants stand out far above any others I've heard.
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Could you bear to play something by Eric Thiman? Gosh - perhaps I should have started a new topic at this point? Does anyone play any Thiman? (I was thinking of the Postlude on Adeste Fidelis.)
I do play bits of Thiman - I mentioned the Adeste Fideles further up. I find his Trumpet Tune on Moscow to be a jolly little number that seems to go quite nicely if you've used the hymn tune. I have looked at the 'Regent Square' piece in the same album and it doesn't seem too bad. I'd venture to say its not the greatest music but perfectly serviceable and no worse than most (if not all) of what fills the albums Mayhew's composers produce.
Of course it depends where you are. I don't think you'd find Thiman's stuff as voluntaries in Cathedrals, but in a Parish Church setting it may well fit in OK.
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Do you mean the radio version? Because the TV broadcast always has the Bach chorale prelude on Vom Himmel hoch - which is occasionally faded out about half a second or so before the final note (and its attendant reverberation) has ended.
Yes, I did mean the radio version. I have to confess I've never watched the TV version.
One further suggestion which occured to me while I was in church this afternoon - Eric Thiman's Postlude on Adeste Fideles. Slightly contrived, but pretty straightforward variations on the well-known hymn tune. It is in the Novello Festal Voluntaries Collection for Christmas and Epiphany. If you don't have it already, you probably won't be able to track it down in two weeks though.
I also like Andrew Gant's Toccata on Mendelssohn, which again is pretty straightforward and has doubtless appeared in numerous Mayhew Christmas compilations. Again, perhaps rather contrived, but a happy piece on a clear theme which at about 3 minutes long doesn't outstay its welcome. I'll be doing this for Christmas Day morning.
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I usually do the Bach BWV 729 In dulci jubilo after carol services - its not too long, not difficult but is loud enough to sound over a congregation who will almost inevitably start talking. Its always the first voluntary after the Kings service on Christmas Eve.
I'll be saving the Widor Toccata for Midnight Mass (my first public performance of this piece). But all the things posted on this thread would work equally well I'm sure.
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We used it yesterday morning (for the first time in this arrangement) and the congregation did fine!
To my ear our congregation seemed to keep the melody going well while the choir were singing the reharmonisation. The organ accompaniment helps out in places.
We had a very good turnout too - our curate who organised it said she had publicised it a bit more widely and it certainly paid off. The Howells was well-received too - I got a round of applause! It is a piece which makes an impression I think.
Guilmant - Final To Sonata No. 1
in The Organ
Posted
Well having spent a little while on it now, I have to agree with the earlier contributor who said that the triple pedalling may look bad but is actually far from the most difficult element of the movement. I've stuck to leaving my shoes off which seems to work fairly well - the only chord I'm having real trouble with is the penultimate one (some way from the end) where the right foot is to take C# and E. I also realise looking at the score that in my ignorance I'm playing the first one wrongly (I've been doing D and F# when it is in fact F# and A). However, my chief concern will now be with the preceding pages before the change to the major.
I think its a wonderful movement, full of drama. I almost think the ending is a bit over-the-top but it is very satisfying.