petergunstone
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Posts posted by petergunstone
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5 hours ago, John Furse said:
“I only lamented the lack of a Cornet !
It seems I have stirred up the nest of a hornet.
I sought a strong tierce –
Have provoked some ire fierce –
But, could still a radiant Mountie* adorn it ?”
I read with interest Peter Gunstone’s well-argued and cogent post. I agree with much (most) of it. However, I believe there are far worse things in this increasingly fraught world than having an opinion, based on a lifetime’s varied experience, worldwide.
Were it in my gift, I would have a Mounted Cornet, bold & forthright - able to complement reeds in Bombarde-style and perform its eponymous Voluntaries. I recall with fondness the one I was fortunate to have access to, early in my career. I also recall with pleasure, amongst others, Rotherhithe and the Dallams in Brittany.
I really believe there is no adequate substitute.
I don’t wish the organ in our Primate’s Cathedral to sound like a Schnitger, Silbermann, Clicquot, or even Echevarría, but this is a minor/major feature of the English organ and its repertoire that is (presumably) unable to be convincingly performed. That is, unless the Choir mutations are on unbelievably high pressure.
I am aware of the processes necessary for a 'new' organ in an Anglican church, having been subject to them in a past life. In fact, as I write, I am shortly to meet an eminent organ-builder, to discuss a ‘legacy instrument’: i.e. one that I will never hear. Happily, and free from all such constraints, I can rant, mildly and wistfully.
*No, David: I'm not suggesting an officer of the RCMP is permanently on the case, as it were !
I salute you: what brilliant, bold, and forthright post! You've almost convinced me to change my mind.
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23 hours ago, John Furse said:
I'm more than mildly astounded: 89 stops and ONE separate (Choir) tierce in the whole instrument (?),
How has the Cornet Voluntary offended ? And, large swathes of the continental repertoire are 'inaccessible', with only inaccurate rendering possible.
I'm sure it will sound grand . . . but, somehow, incomplete.
It is interesting to compare the tonal resources of the two organs of this thread. As regards tierce registrations, Manchester offers three options (Gt Cornet; Pos Cornet decomposé; Choir Sesquialtera) which - I believe - can be used on three separate manuals by means of a Choir on Solo transfer (not listed on the builder's website, but which I have seen on a photograph of the screen console). However, whilst such comparisons are practically relevant to some aspects of the performance of repertoire, a crucial consideration is that these two instruments have been built and are being rebuilt from fundamentally different starting points. Whereas Manchester is an entirely new instrument, reusing only a small selection of pipework from the previous instrument, broadly speaking, Canterbury seems to be the recreation of the spirit of the 1948 Willis rebuild.
Has the Cornet Voluntary offended? And are large swathes of the continental repertoire inaccessible? And will it sound incomplete? I suggest not. The performance of music always takes place within limitations; indeed, is this not the point of creativity which makes live performances so vital? Yes, whilst it will not be possible to register every piece of organ music, even large swathes of organ music, with stop names and combinations that appear and perhaps sound similar, there will nonetheless be many convincing and individual performances of music with the ample resources available.
The question of accessibility of repertoire is not just confined to stop lists. It is influenced by the voicing and scale of choruses, by the physical layout of the instrument, and its placement in the building. Even if this instrument were to have three separate tierce registrations, the difference between the layout of a werkprinzip instrument and the one proposed at Canterbury would already create a distinction, rendering, in the opinion of some I'm sure, an authentic performance already impossible. For instance, from experience, listening to some dialogical baroque fantasia in the nave of a cathedral such as Canterbury, some aspects of the music, notably the directness of sound and the spatial effect which were almost undoubtedly imagined and intended by the composer are completely lost owing to these factors. The situation is quite different in Manchester.
But OK, as a tierce rank is materially and financially relative insignificant in a scheme such as Canterbury, perhaps it would have been nice to squeeze one in somewhere. But then where does one stop? For me, the convincing performance of music begins and is most dependent on the technical facility and creative rhetoric of the performer. Yes, it's great to hear music performed on instruments that are as close as possible to those for which it was intended. But a critical aspect of the living tradition is the way in which music has subsequently been reinterpreted and performed in new contexts in a manner which is both respectful of, but not unnecessarily limited by the sources of that music.
As has already been noted, the prime function of this instrument is the accompaniment of the choral and congregational opus Dei, and all indications are that, post-rebuild, it will do better justice to this task with the expanded/restored tonal resources. The tonal palette offered is wide within the tradition of this instrument, and I look forward to hearing how organists will creatively perform Cornet Voluntaries and the aforementioned Messaien in time to come.
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Specification on the H&H website (under gallery)
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6 hours ago, Neil Crawford said:
But your topic hasn’t been update since 2006!
Yes, it's odd that the preview is showing that when the last post was last Tuesday! Quirks of the system...
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Hi. Some discussion of this has already taken place on
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A specification of the proposed 2020 organ has appeared online:
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19 hours ago, Contrabombarde said:
Is the intention to keep the new organ where it has been installed (a bit off-centre to the pillars, and some way in front of the old pipescreen judging by the photo) or would it be pushed back in due course? And I do worry a bit about organs whose pipes are within reach of curious or malicious hands, I hope the church is either locked or attended at all times! What's the plan for the old Jardine, or is there nothing worth saving there?
Yes, the plan is that it remains there for the time being. It is, in fact, lined up with a change of flooring. Although it looks a little odd, geometrically, from my photograph, this is a not a common viewing site: all the pews are located in the nave. In situ, the organ looks good.
Time will tell whether or not additional casework is required, although there is sufficient to keep the hands of minors out.
The Jardine is being broken up: I understand that some pipes have been salvaged, so it is possible that some pipes may find their way into another instrument.
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The 1992 Walker Organ, formerly installed in the Royal Northern College of Music's 'Organ Room' (http://www.npor.org.uk/NPORView.html?RI=D07597) has been purchased by and installed in St James' Church, Didsbury by Wood of Huddersfield. The organ became available following the demise of the RNCM's Organ Department.
Whilst this latter occasion is a sad one for me as a former RNCM postgraduate organ student (1999-2001), the outcome is happy as I grew up in the Parish of St James' & Emmanuel Didsbury, and initiated an organ project just under 20 years ago to replace the then ageing Jardine/Warrington/Cyril Wood workhorse. It is very satisfying to see this responsive, mechanical action organ in place of the former flabby, albeit much-loved instrument. (Emmanuel Church on Barlow Moor Road has been home to the BBC Daily Service for the past quarter century, and houses a Young/Conacher/Wood of Huddesfield 2M instrument).
I have heard and played the organ. Whilst it is, inevitably, settling into its new location, it will be a fine asset to the parish, complementing the more romantic organ in Emmanuel. I understand that St James' may become a regional centre of organ education.
The instrument is installed to the west of the 'vestries', in front of the former organ's west-facing pipe display.
I attach a couple of poor-quality photos which are the best I can offer for your interest. The remains of the Jardine/... organ can be seen in the background. Whilst there are no immediate plans for the former organ chamber, apart from stripping out the organ, the long-term plan has been to construct some badly-needed multi-purpose rooms, especially for Children's Ministry during Sunday Services. The 'vestries' space is the size of a decent semi-detached house, so there is plenty of scope for its meaningful deployment.
The specification remains:
- Great: Open Diapason 8; Chimney Flute 8; Principal 4; Fifteenth 2; Mixture III; Hautboy 8.
- (Brustwerk) Positive: Stopped Flute 8; Flute 4; Nazard 2 2/3; Gemshorn 2; Tierce 1 3/5; Larigot 1 1/3.
- Pedal: Subbass 16; Flute 8; Choral Bass 4; Fagot 16.
- Couplers: Pos/Gt; Pos/Pd; Gt/Pd (draw stops and pedal levers).
- Tremulant (to the whole organ).
- Balanced swell pedal to positive, although the swell shutters are not currently installed, and I don't know if there are plans to install them or not.
If I recall rightly, this instrument was built by Walkers for another client, who then commissioned another instrument, rendering this instrument surplus to requirements. This led to its acquisition by the RNCM, who installed swell shutters to the Positive in place of the original folding doors (see photo below), in order that the instrument might be more versatile, especially for examinations.
Well done to all involved - a fine outcome for this instrument, for the church, and - potentially - for regional organ education.
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No answer, but some pointers:
1. Nicholsons are to do some work on the Milton organ: http://www.nicholsonorgans.co.uk/portfolio/tewkesbury-abbey-milton-organ/
2. A question concerning the Grove organ was recently raised elsewhere on this forum:
Hope this helps!
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I understand that the inaugural recital, given by Thomas Trotter, will be on Thursday, September 14. Looking forward to it!
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Manchester Cathedral: Stoller Organ to be played for the first time on Easter Day
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They have a plan, and appreciate the history of the instrument, but need to fund raise:
http://www.sjp.org.uk/restoration-project.html
http://www.sjp.org.uk/the-organ.html
The Rector, Rev Lucy Winkett, is perhaps one of the best-known priest-musician-theologians, and a former Precentor of St Paul's Cathedral: http://www.sjp.org.uk/lucywinkett.html
Her first book, Our Sound is our Wound, was the Archbishop of Canterbury's Lent Book in 2010, is an excellent meditation on sound and spirituality: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherhowse/7224326/Hearing-alarms-listening-for-angels.html
For a quick introduction, see:
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The new Tickell organ in Manchester cathedral has been visually unveiled. It looks stunning!
Pictures on the cathedral's and organ builder's Facebook pages
https://www.facebook.com/pg/ManchesterCathedral/photos/?tab=album&album_id=1077448075650009
https://www.facebook.com/Kenneth-Tickell-Organ-Builders-1423049941244123/?fref=ts which also includes a statement from Pippa Tickell:
Kenneth Tickell and Company are proud to announce the unveiling of the cases of their organ for Manchester Cathedral.
The instrument is not yet finished as there is still 3 months of tonal finishing to be completed before the instrument can sing its true tune. The removal of the scaffolding and hoardings around it merely allow us to see what we will have to wait to hear.
What you can see comes from the collaboration of many English organ-building talents: the case design by the late Kenneth Tickell and Tomas Jansky, the company's technical designer; the case manufacture by Penny's Mill of Great Bedwyn, Wiltshire, the flue pipes by Terry Shires of Leeds, the gilding by Chris Wells of Sheffield, restoration of the Jesus Chapel pipes and soundboards by David Wells (Organbuilders) of LIverpool and pipe shade design by Steven Raw of Manchester. Reed pipes have made by Killinger pipe manufacturers in Germany. The consultant is Paul Hale.
But while the organ could not have been built without all these talented craftspeople, the real heroes of the job are the Tickell team who have weathered the storm of losing their leader in July of 2014 to create the firm's third and largest cathedral organ to date. They have spent months on site and in the workshop designing, crafting and building the whole instrument with its dual mechanical and electric action bringing the whole together in honour of the man who is its originator: Kenneth Tickell. They are: Josh Anderson, Simon Brown, Stuart Coles, Tony Coles Jeff Hubbard, Tom Jansky, Michael Latham (sub contractor) Tristan Moore Tim Pipkin, Gary Stone.
We all look forward to early April when the organ will be "handed over" to the cathedral after Simon Brown has completed his tonal finishing and can await news of its opening.
Pippa Tickell
November 2016.I grew up in Manchester and whilst I was fond of the old organ, the idea of a new organ on the pulpitum has been around since I began playing the organ as as teenager. I can't wait to see and hear it 'in person'.
Congratulations to all involved, not least Christopher Stokes without whose vision and patience this would not have come about.
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We attended the excellent Advent Procession at Durham Cathedral this evening: the combined drama of liturgy, movement, darkness/light, and of course music was most effective and moving. Clearly a great deal of skilful preparation had gone in, so big thanks to the cathedral team.
However, the limitations of the wonderful Willis/Harrison organ as an instrument to lead congregational singing in the nave seemed significant to me. Even though we were sited less than half-way down the nave, the ensemble problems between the organ/choir and congregation were noticeable. Deployment of the tubas at various pitches on the melody line also did little to help bring the congregation together. Whilst I am not accustomed to nave services at Durham, being a newcomer, and I probably am more sensitive to this matter than others, it does seem to me that the provision of a nave organ could make a positive contribution here.
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Local news article on the Manchester Cathedral Tickell installation: http://www.manchesterconfidential.co.uk/news/revealed-manchester-cathedrals-new-25m-organ
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"A man from Cardiff, Wales, has completed his personal challenge to play music on the UK's 94 cathedral organs." http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-36917448
Well, I do admire his achievement, and am - of course - envious of his experience. Undoubtedly, some of the UK's cathedrals do possess very fine instruments, many of which I haven't had the privilege of presiding over.
But not all do. His aim of playing all cathedral organs got me thinking. Indeed, there are many finer instruments in other buildings, but in buildings of lesser status. Of course, the 'Great European Organs' series visited Armley, Norwood, and Cullercoats, but buildings of significant ecclesiastical and municipal status dominated that series. Perhaps this was because it was a series of recordings of organs 'great' rather than 'small'. I daresay this was pragmatic - a 'Small European Organs' series might command an even lesser niche of the organ music market.
Some questions for discussion:
1. Are we happily addicted to the 'sturm und drang' of 'grand' organs in equally 'grand' acoustics? Should we be happily addicted to this? If the organ as an artistic genre is truly an instrument on which we can 'make music', should we not seek to elevate the status of smaller examples? Or is it simply that the larger, grander instruments are indeed the finest examples of their creators work?
2. As has been commented elsewhere on this forum, rebuilds of large-ish organs tend to ensure that the usual complement of curtain shakers, etc., is attained. But is this a tragic mistake? Are we emphasising one musical manifestation of the organ over another, and setting a grander par of organ music than does justice to our tradition? And what lies behind all of this?
3. And what about a series of 'Obscure European Organs'? Which organs would be on your list, and why? What would you programme there that the grand organs don't do justice to in the same way?
With interest,
Pete
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Leeds Minster has just advertised for a Director of Music in succession to Simon Lindley.
Interesting to see that it is a 2-year fixed-term appointment.
It is interesting that the goals are somewhat open-ended as well. It seems to me that this is more of a pioneering role than many such jobs, in which the person appointed will have a degree of freedom to determine how the musical life of Leeds Minister is developed. I think that this would be a great opportunity for someone with creative energy to invest - there are a good facilities (generous song room, music library, good organ), an established community of loyal singers and instrumentalists, and lots of potential in the area: schools, universities, the College of Music...if I were not starting ordination training, I'd be applying. I'll watch for the appointment with interest.
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32ft Double Open Wood now installed! Some great photos on the FB page. It seems to be of a narrower scale than some of the more visible UK examples.
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Chapel restoration including organ overhaul by Peter Collins Ltd.
See http://www.trinity.ox.ac.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Chapel-Guide-WEBSITE1.pdf for further details
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Apologies, I meant the nave furniture, ie the stalls to the west of the crossing, where the choir normally sing from.
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There is a greater question lurking behind this that concerns:
1) the functionality of the building for the varying degrees of congregations it hosts; and
2) the related question of the musical suitability of different spaces.
1) in its current form, the space is awful for large congregations. Whilst there is an excellent sense of community in the sections with collegiate layout, the sight lines are very poor, and more widely the sense of disconnection far exceeds anything else.
The location of the organ doesn't help, in my view, it blocking the sense of draw towards the High Altar from the west doors. It's success as an accompaniment all instrument is, in my opinion, down to the skilled and judicious deployment of its resources by the organists.
2) Undoubtedly, the area east of the crossing is superior for singing. Having occasionally depped both for choir services in the Victorian 'West Quire' (ie Nave) adjacent to the Rieger, and concerts performed from near the High Altar, the latter outstrips the former as a suitable space for choral music.
Inevitably, the building has twin roles: college chapel, diocesan cathedral. Leaving the East Quire as is, a radical clearing of the West Quire/Nave (perhaps including the organ), along with a move of the choir into the East Quire would bring about marked improvements in both 1) and 2). This would bring about the following layout options:
A. Small/medium 'Collegiate' Services & chamber concerts use the East Quire
B. Larger services/concerts led from either the crossing or High Altar using the West Quire & Nave: this would benefit from better acoustics and sight lines.
C. More flexible layout using the large North Transept & Nave for services/concerts of varying sizes.
Etc...
What one would do about the provision of organs I don't know. Perhaps an east choir organ, the Rieger being pushed west a little more as the Grand Organ?
It is a tricky building. These are just thoughts which would take a bold Dean & Chapter to propose and implement. The Dean is certainly bold...
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Thanks for flagging this. I would love to hear readers' reviews, as and when.
A sketchy memory: 15 years ago, during my postgraduate performance studies at the RNCM, we had the opportunity of a taster Alexander Technique session. This included basic, generalised class observations and exercises, and the opportunity for brief individual consultations.
Mine were on the Hradetsky organ in the concert hall, and then in a fine harpsichord by Michael Johnson. The Alexander Technician observed me playing each briefly, and asked to what extent one could change the instruments relative to the player's position. When I described the essential absence of any such possibility, apart from bench height, and went on to describe some of the challenges of other such instruments, it was clear from her resigned response that she didn't have any experience of organs & harpsichords, and that she thought that I had no hope in terms of developing a good posture etc.
I wonder if others have received tuition from an Alexander Technician who specialise in organ/keyboard instruments?
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I had always understood that the current Mander instrument was one part of the solution to provide for organs in the chapel. What has not happened is the provision of a much larger instrument in the south transept. Perhaps they were waiting for a rich old boy who had an interest in music/ organs to die.
I was told the old H&H/HNB was very cramped on the screen making maintenance and tuning difficult. It was, however, regarded by some as the best organ in Oxford for choir accompaniment. Do I recall seeing that the church which bought it is now redundant?
It was installed in St Edward's School, Oxford.
http://www.npor.org.uk/NPORView.html?RI=D04484
I note that Phoenix Organs installed an instrument in St Edward's School in 2008
http://www.phoenixorgans.co.uk/installations-2008/st-edwards-school-oxford.html
There is a view of the rear of the former organ case in Magdalene College Chapel on NPOR
http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/XMLFunctions.cgi?Fn=GetPicture&Rec_index=N11119&Number=1
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I don't think I have been inside Magdalen since the late 70s and never took much interest in the organ. Why was it reduced to two manuals? It always seemed a strange decision for a chapel engaged in a full repertoire of choral services. I can only think it must have been a space issue.
From http://www.mander-organs.com/portfolio/magdalenc.html
The design of a new organ for the chapel of Magdalen College, Oxford, posed several interesting problems - not least, because the musical traditions of the College demanded an organ that could do justice to the accompaniment of a wide-ranging choral repertoire, in addition to the other needs of a teaching establishment. However, the chapel is not large and the old organ effectively filled the arch between chapel and ante-chapel, destroying the sense of connection between the two, and masking the light from the magnificent clear west window, which was subsequently replaced with an impressive monochrome decorated window to match the other windows of the Ante-Chapel.
The need to reestablish the architectural unity of the building dictated that the new organ should be of more modest proportions, both physically and in number of stops. Further, the remarkable stone Chaire case, designed by Cottingham in about 1830, was to form part of the new scheme. Its awkward size - too large for a Choir organ, but barely big enough for a major department - was a further complicating factor both in the design of the new organ, and in establishing the proportions of the new main case.
These problems were overcome, and the result is an intriguing and versatile new instrument. The Great Organ is housed behind the player's back in the stone Chaire case, and the Swell and Pedal Organs are housed in a new oak main case, designed by the architect Julian Bicknell. The key and pedal actions are mechanical, with wooden trackers, rollers and squares, and there is a third coupler manual. The mechanical drawstop action incorporates four 'general' composition pedals, instantly adjustable at the console.
The traditional winding system incorporates hand blowing as well as the more usual electric fan, and the entire organ is fed from one very large double-rise reservoir. The tremulants are of Dom Bedos design.
Appointments 2
in General discussion
Posted
Simon Leach, currently organist of the Holy Name (Manchester), to be organist of St Mary's Catholic Cathedral, Edinburgh.
https://www.stmaryscathedral.co.uk/news/2018/5/10/sixth-sunday-of-easter-year-b