nfortin
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Posts posted by nfortin
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I would agree in this instance. I recall that you have posted this clip before. On a small one-clavier instrument, this may work. Personally I would still prefer a small-scale Trompette; presumably infrequent tuning and maintenance would preclude this in such a situation.
Personally, I still cannot see anything particularly offensive about a fairly high-pitched well-made (and -voiced) mixture in a large, resonant building.
As I wrote, the 4ft. reed must have had some new pipework. Unless W, W & Co. simply melted down the old H&H reed resonators.
Well, for a quiet chorale prelude this may suffice (although I should wish to slow down the tremulant). However, in chorus work this would not do at all.
I believe both the 8' and 4' reeds were entirely new. I was told at the time that the pipes of the old trombas were collapsing under their own weight.
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Neither did Queen Elizabeth (I) sleep in a bed in the rectory.
Could you let me have the dimensions of the bed that Queen Elizabeth did not sleep in. I will be replacing the car shortly and would like to make adequate provision.
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Yes - I think we were discussing Worcester, were we not?
....Or perhaps it was tubas....
Anyway, as a Fourniture IV is definitely one bigger than a 3-piece suite there's absolutely no way it would fit in a hatchback.
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I am on record as having found the old Worcester console perhaps the most comfortable I have ever played, although the Willis III at Hereford is a very close contender, and of course lament its passing. I must say that I was not sure whether I would like the new console based on the evidence of the (as always excellent) photographs. However on the basis of my brief visit to the new loft a week or so ago I would have to say how impressed I was with the quality of the workmanship, both in the very comfortable and, for the time being at least, tidy new loft, and with the console itself. I don't think the visiting organist will have any difficulty with the contrast or colours of the materials used, although the sheer size of the console may prove daunting. The layout of the (quite large) toe pistons impressed me, they looked very comfortable indeed, I think any organist that can manage to work out how to set their preferred options for the sequencer and setter will soon feel at home.
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It seems to me that many of the clergy believe that we have a duty to listen to a sermon whether it is interesting and well constructed or not. My own attention span seems to be limited. Some preachers manage to grab my attention and hold it, but they are rare and far between. We need to learn from this.
Organists fall into the same trap. Because they are wrapped up in the wonderful nature of the De Gringy or whatever that they are playing, and so pleased that they have managed to demonstrate the absolute perfection of the Tierce 1 1/3 on the choir, they forget that to the average listener this is sterile stuff. I think we all need to remember that, as solo performers, we are in the entertainment business. This doesn't mean that you cant try to educate and inform at the same time, but you need at all times to engage with the audience and hold their attention.
So I don't think there's anything wrong in programming pieces that you know will be popular. It may be a cop out only to programme such pieces, but that's a different matter. If you've got an audience present you can attempt to educate them and broaden their perspectives by introducing music that they're less familiar with. If all you've got are the organ anoraks its a lost cause.
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I assume this was subsequently released on CD by Regis? If so, I have it also, and had pretty much the same reaction - although I would be the first to acknowledge Hunt's musical gifts on the wider musical canvas, this recording seemed to consist of playing that was merely "going through the motions", and could not be more different from John Scott's St. Paul's recording of the G major sonata.
Those people that heard Sumsion accompany evensong at Gloucester speak of his brilliance at accompanying the psalms, at improvising before the service, and generally of being at one with his instrument in his cathedral. Donald had obviously learnt well from his master and whilst not the busiest recitalist on the circuit was really excellent at accompanying evensong. I spent 4 years at Worcester and, although Donald and I certainly knew who each other were, can not claim to have known him well (in fact hardly at all). Nevertheless I would imagine he would agree that his main strengths were/are in choir training and choral conducting. In the days before cathedral MD's routinely farmed out vocal tuition to specialist coaches Donald's results at Worcester were first rate, and this was reflected in the number of recording contracts they received, probably only matched by the leading and obvious Oxbridge chapel choirs. Donald was also a champion and pioneer in introducing much of the French choral repertoire into an anglican cathedral, and most people agreed that, without reducing the cathedral organ's ability to do its day-to-day english job, his changes to the organ gave it a more french character.
Its good to see that he features in this year's 3-choirs festival programme. Its also good to see that Henry Sandon is involved, not always having been well treated by the cathedral. (Yes, the well loved antiques roadshow expert, he was a lay-clerk at the cathedral at the time that I was around.) So, whilst recognising that the purpose of this particular thread is to be nasty to people, why not instead recognise that Donald gave us many landmark recodings, even if he was conducting on them rather than playing.
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Actually, I'm just waiting for the opportunity to get upstairs once the rest of the scaffolding is out and get some more shots. That will also be the point when we can uncover the console from its present protected state. I'd like to take some shots of the Sw Vox Humana and a few fish-eye views of the various soundboards....but don't let me stop the mud-slinging as I'm really looking forward to the point where this thread has more hits than the old one you lot were so kind as to start all those years ago! We're heading for somewhere over 42000 which should be achievable, I'd have thought.....
May God bless you all!!
A
You have to have a little sympathy for those of us in more hum-drum occupations who need a bit of humour, banter and light relief to get us through the day. Anyway, I enjoyed your comment above and shall look forward to seeing the next photos in due course. They really are excellent.
According to the Three Choirs web site tickets for GW's recital are "Out of Stock", so presumably its a sell out.
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I do not regard this as a particularly apt analogy......
(As a matter of interest, there is - or was - an old sofa in the organ loft there). font]
I rather enjoyed reading your reply, although I'm sure you didn't really think I was for one moment suggesting that my sofa could provide an apt accompaniment for Coll Reg. or whatever. I accompanied evensong in Gloucester quite recently, and was there with my church choir in March. I believe the sofa is no longer present in the loft and would like to make it clear that neither I, or my hatchback, were in anyway involved.
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Strange, I didn't see or hear many 'old rusty saucepans' on my recent visit to Gloucester. Not many cats about either. So what really should we find in an English Cathedral Organ? Is it the usual compromised hotch-potch of heavy pondorous diapasons, thin watery strings, broad bellowy reeds on the Great that bear little resemblance to musical reeds whatsoever, the depressing array of imitative orchestral noises on the solo that bear no resemblance absolutely whatsoever to any orchestral instrument known to man, and the coup de grace, the English tuba stop, the most noisome and incongruous excuse for a very loud noise ever devised by the hands of man? Is this really what an English Cathedral organ is all about? Is it??
You'd better come clean and say which cathedral organs you have in mind, because having played just about all of the cathedral and other "great church" organs in the midlands and south west in the last year or two I can't think of a single one that matches your description.
I also can't imagine that anyone would seriously suggest that organ voices on a "traditional" english solo organ accurately match the sound of the orchestral instrument on the stop knob. So what? What's your point here? These are organ voices, and from an organist's point of view one only expects them to match an organ stop of the same name. Like it or not these are part of our heritage.
I find this generalised dismissal of the tuba stop to be divorced from reality. I'm told the Durham Cathedral organ has 3 tubas. I've not heard it and cannot therefore judge, but it seems reasonable to assume that if all are coupled through as a part of the tutti this might be excessive. By contrast, if you take the single tubas at Hereford, or that at Salisbury, as examples, these are bright, ringing solo voices. Far more musical I would suggest than many of the chamade reeds perhaps preferred by some.
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Strange, I didn't see or hear many 'old rusty saucepans' on my recent visit to Gloucester. Not many cats about either. So what really should we find in an English Cathedral Organ? Is it the usual compromised hotch-potch of heavy pondorous diapasons, thin watery strings, broad bellowy reeds on the Great that bear little resemblance to musical reeds whatsoever, the depressing array of imitative orchestral noises on the solo that bear no resemblance absolutely whatsoever to any orchestral instrument known to man, and the coup de grace, the English tuba stop, the most noisome and incongruous excuse for a very loud noise ever devised by the hands of man? Is this really what an English Cathedral organ is all about? Is it??
Actually, unless I've read it incorrectly, Richard was talking about Christ Church, Oxford. Some of the discussions about this instrument, and that of Gloucester Cathedral, when considering their use for choral accompaniment seem to confuse the issue of whether its possible to work your way around the limitations of the instrument in a way for which it, in all probablity, was not designed to be used with whether its actually good at it.
I drive a hatchback. If I've got a sofa to take to the dump I might with some difficulty, and possible ingenuity, manage to get it into the car and succeed in transporting the said article to the dump. I can then state from personal experience that my car is perfectly able to take sofas to the dump. However this can not disguise the fact that really a large volvo estate would be much better for the purpose and a flat bed truck or transit van better still. Therefore when choosing my vehicle, if the majority of its journeys involve taking a sofa to the dump does it not follow that a hatchback is not the best choice?
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This has been a very interesting thread, all in all. I've noted some very clear themes:
We all appear to agree that the pipe organ is the ideal instrument; that a fine pipe installation is practically without compare and many (most) feel that, if a church has a good and/or historic instrument (alas, not in Upton!) it should do absolutely all it can to maintain (and restore) it: we have an obligation to the future.
Some believe that any pipe organ is better than any digital organ. Others feel that there are times when a digital organ is the better and more pragmatic answer and that a well-executed digital installation can be a successful one. I'm more persuaded by this latter argument than I have been in the past.
I've also picked up that:
if you wouldn't install a 4-manual pipe organ of 60 stops in your church, you shouldn't install a digital organ of that size;
a digital organ might be cheaper than a pipe organ but a good one is not cheap and you have to look at value over the years. You can't skimp!;
almost as important as a digital organ itself, is the sound system that comes with it: although speakers are still likely to be the weakest link in comparing a digital organ to a pipe organ, a properly-designed and installed sound system will have a significant impact on the perception of a digital organ.
Finally, the important reminder to myself: unless it's in my home, the organ is not there for my benefit: it's there for the church. And so am I.
That's a pretty fair summary I would say. Do let me know if you'd like to call in and have a play at Charlton Kings some time, we're only just down the road really.
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Delighted to hear about the Worcester job.
I personally don't miss old Gloucester, I much prefer the current.
I would miss a Hereford or a Canterbury.
R
I don't miss the old organ either, I never heard it. I just don't much care for the new one. And based on my experience of the wonderful instruments at Salisbury, Hereford and Truro, would suspect that there would have been more of virtue in the old instrument that was at the very least worthy of retention. I also feel that, in view of the very high regard I have of the place of both Herberts Howells and Sumsion in the history of the anglican choral tradition in the twentieth century, that their views of the relative merits of the two instruments (ie. Gloucester before and after) should not easily be discounted.
The Gloucester organ, I may just possibly have let this subjective view slip out before, is remarkably unsuitable for the job of accompanying the english choral repertoire. In fact its bloody useless at it. Other recent instruments, which may be of great merit as recital instruments (you might think I'm talking about Bath Abbey but I couldn't possibly comment) pose significant challenges when it comes to sensitive accompaniment. (When you're only on swell 2 or swell 3 for the opening verse of the psalm and the conductor tells you its too loud you know you're up against it). I'm absolutely delighted to say that I don't think the new Worcester organ is going to have these failings. It would seem that those responsible for defining the requirements of this new instrument have, whatever their preference for soloist repertoire may be, not lost sight of the fact that its core function is to fulfil its liturgical role in an anglican cathedral. Not only that, but a cathedral in which the historical ties to some of this country's most significant composers clearly remain of importance and relevance to those directing its music today.
Halleuia!
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I thought we sang the Gloucester Service....???!!!!
A
Oh dear, wrong again! That explains it, I didn't think I'd ever played the Worcester service and yet I recognised the piece as one I had played (and quite recently too). Old age creeping up ever faster I suppose.
Anyway, although evensong in the nave lacks the intimacy and atmosphere of the quire it was most enjoyable and of a very high standard. I particularly enjoyed the Rose responses, even with the slip (actually the most enjoyable thing of all) by the cantor!
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I made the short trip up to Worcester this afternoon, the dual temptations of getting a look at the organ with the scaffolding down plus Howells Worcester Service at evensong were too much to resist. By good fortune I arrived at a time when Adrian and his assistant Christopher were just tidying up after a concert in the nave and took the liberty of introducing myself to Adrian. I was met with great kindness, Adrian asked Christopher to show me the organ, which I was certainly not expecting, so was treated to a demonstration from the console and even got to play a few notes myself.
As Adrian has commented, the expression pedals are not currently functional with the boxes closed, and there is some tuning and finishing yet needed on the swell.
I'm pleased to say that my impressions are that my worries about the choice of builder, based solely on my experience of the organ in Sherborne Abbey which is not too my personal tastes, seem likely to prove unfounded. The flutes on this organ are exquisite and the great fonds are really quite mild and civilised with a very good blend. The solo oboe, clarinet and cor anglais are all very pleasant, Worcester will have a genuine 4-manual organ, whereas (even die-hard fans of the old machine like me would have to admit) the previous organ was really only a 3-manual. Its interesting the extent to which Christopher already talks with some passion about the new instrument, and he was very keen to make the point that they strongly wished to avoid the excesses of the past (high pitched mixtures of no use for accompanying etc.) and to have a real, English cathedral organ. I think they will have, although I'm not sure that the swell, which apparently in the old organ was too loud for accompanying the choir, will be significantly quieter than before. Having heard the wonderful colours that Christopher coaxed out of the Father Rogers, both in the psalm and in the Howells this afternoon, I'm sure that in his hands the new organ will prove fully suited to its task.
Now can we have one in Gloucester please?
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It's interesting how your perceptions are affected. I've never really played a 'state of the art' digital as in Cheltenham but I started to look enviously at the Rogers/Collins thingy in Worcester Cathedral, wondering how it would sound in Upton.
Trouble is, this morning I popped into the cathedral again and heard, for the first time, the foundations on the new organ. I was overwhelmed by the difference.
My church choir sang weekend services at Worcester in April this year. I thought the Rogers very poor. I played the Guillmant "Lift up your heads" after Sunday evensong and the tutti for the last page was just a horrible noise. Subjective views of course, but our custom Wyvern/Phoenix is to my ears in a different league.
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I am ready to be proved wrong so I issue this challenge: How many of our readers are still organist (at church) of an organ-substitute and have been more than five years in the same post? I don't think we'll get more than ten replies.
In response to recent posts on this subject I have re-read, with interest, our previous discussions. Whether I achieve the 5-year milestone remains to be seen (its 4 and counting), but if I do move on it will be as a result of frustrations with the choir and nothing to do with the organ. I have the good fortune to have access to many of the "great" organs in the midlands and south west of England. In the last year or so I have played at Truro, Gloucester, Bath, Bristol, St. Mary Redcliffe, Exeter, Salisbury, Hereford, Tewkesbury, Wells, Worcester (before and after demolition), Romsey, Sherborne, Birmingham, Malvern and elsewhere. I don't think I have ever come back to my own church (with its Wyvern digital organ) and felt hard done by.
My church choir have in the last few years sung services at Hereford, Birmingham, Worcester, Llandaff and Exeter. On each occasion I have noticed afterwards the degree to which they are inspired by, and respond to, the quality and excitement of our Wyvern organ to a far greater degree than they respond to the more famous instrument in other surroundings.
I remain a passionate supporter of the pipe organ, but believe we should all accept that there are a lot of very poor instuments out there that are simply not worth saving.
What price art? How many millions of pounds will it take for Worcester to complete their ambitious proposals? What is the final price that Cirencester are prepared to pay for their ludicrously grandiose scheme to improve an admittedly horrible instrument? Does there not come a point at which even the enthusiast should look at the wider picture to ask whether this is money well spent and, above all, can it be morally justified?
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In a world full of poe-faced prelates, who often take themselves far too seriously, the "War march of the priests" seems to me to be the perfect foil to their absurdity.
I like to keep the "Liberty Bell" handy for this sort of purpose. As this march is, for most people, inextricably linked with Monty Python, and therefore all things very silly, I like to bring out the Liberty Bell as a comment if I think the sermon has been particularly silly, or sometimes (as when our church youth group ran this year's Mothering Sunday Service with a "Dr Who" theme running throughout it) as a comment that the whole service has been in some way risible.
(Ps. don't take this as in anyway anti Monty Python though, took daughters to spamalot last week)
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We've got a new curate starting this week, having been ordained in the Cathedral yesterday, and you've given me ideas about Sunday's voluntary...
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I think that part of the problem arises from the fact that all of the church fees are "flat" rates. If the vicar, verger, organist, bell ringers, choir etc were all being paid on some form of time related basis, an hourly rate or whatever, then there would be a feeling that the meter was running and a real incentive to turn up on time, especially if running into the next hour even by one minute meant you had to pay for the whole of that hour (a bit like car parks really).
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I have a recording or two of Herbert Sumsion. I expect he was typical of his generation, who worked to a very high standard, and in the Anglican context, "knew how to do things right."
As "nfortin" is close to the legacy of Herbert Sumsion, would he happen to know if there was another Sumsion in the area; perhaps a relative?
The reason I ask is simple. I have an open-score work for organ, which appears to be unplayable as written, and I'm sure the composer was called Sumsion, but not Herbert Sumsion. I don't actually know where the piece is in my collection, or I would give further details.
MM
I'm not an expert on Sumsion, although my first organ teacher was a direct pupil of his at the cathedral and my second organ teacher (Paul Trepte) was a pupil of another pupil of Sumsion's (Donald Hunt). I'm also, I suspect, one of a very small number of people that have conducted the orchestral piece "At Valley Green" in live performances.
I'm not aware of any other composing Sumsions. There's a fairly informative biography on Wikepedia, it mentions no children. My first organ teacher, also now deceased, remained a close friend and confident of both Herbert and Alice Sumsion throughout their lives and I certainly never heard him refer to any other family members. Strangely though, Sumsion himself was always referred to as "Daddy" by those that were close to him.
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Not being one to enjoy the music of HH (I do actually like "M T'sT") I've held back on this topic. However, if you look through an awful lot of British music from the period, the registration would come to mind instantly. Like all "dark arts," those of a certain age just know how to do things, and it all derives from the old ways of Anglican Accompaniment.
So we know how to use enclosed divisions, and allow registers to creep in and out of the music, and how to swap manuals strategically, mid-phrase, or bring out a particular musical counter-melody on the Solo organ.
Though having missed out on first hand experience, I believe, quite appropriately in the context of this discussion, that you are describing the legendary (around here anyway) playing of Herbert Sumsion.
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How to make it sound like tubular bells - ask Mike Oldfield!
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Thinking back, I would suggest that the Benedictus and Agnus Dei need at least as much thought and preparation. It would, for example, be very easy to play the opening of the Benedictus on a single swell registration through until at least bar 25, but I feel this would be wrong. The entry at bar 9 needs to be a different sound to the opening bars, and then it must be different again at bar 13.
The colours called for in the Agnus are specific and exquisite. In a single-organ performance this, I believe, would be difficult to manage without the availabilty of preset general pistons or, even better. a stepper. The changes from the OdC passages to the GO, as at bar 24, are difficult to engineer without these facilities. Again, ideally, the RH sound in the GO at bars 24-30 needs to be quite different to the OdC sounds that have gone before.
I think its a case of "Know your instrument", but I strongly feel that the need to contrast the sounds of the OdC from the GO are essential to maintain some flavour of the original intention.
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To go back to the original question, I accompanied single performances in Tewkesbury Abbey & St Mary Redcliffe 2 years ago and did pretty much what your original suggestions were, ie:-
bars 133 - 150 - just play the GO part, OdC is just doubling the choir and wont be missed.
bar 154 & 158 - sustain OdC left hand & play right hand and pedals GO chords
As a rule I would suggest that, if the 4-manual organ allows it, you should aim not to use full swell for OdC if you're also using this coupled as part of the GO because you need to try to find two contrasting sounds ideally coming from different locations within the instrument. Therefore if its possible to create a second full swell effect from the solo organ this can work better. The same thinking applies throughout, hence if you can contrast soft swell strings with solo or choir strings, etc. this will help to create the illusion and effect of the original 2 organ scoring.
I also have a copy of the American Huntington edition transcribed for single organ, but I really couldn't recommend it. Its an awful edition with voice parts reassigned (1st tenor parts given to the altos and the like), numerous mistakes in the performance instructions, and the entire last section printed in the wrong key.
All You Need To Know About Toasters
in General discussion
Posted
I not sure what your point is or what your trying to achieve with this post. I can see nothing that adds to the debate as to whether a good "toaster" is ever preferable to a poor pipe organ (I believe this to be the case) and I'm afraid to say that your comments strike me as taking the mickey out of our continental colleagues.