nfortin
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Posts posted by nfortin
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I don't think I would feel able to stay in post if the incumbent imposed a change of hymn book without involving me in any consultation.
AMNS was a strange collection. Many parishes previously had AMR together with either or both of the hundred hymns for today supplements. This combination provided a pretty decent selection but the man in the pew didn't like having to deal with two or three different hymn books. AMNS attempted to get round this but was always a flawed concept as many worthwhile hymns from AMR were ditched in order to accommodate all 200 HFT even though in practice many of these had never found their way into regular use (and were never likely to do so).
NEH I could never see the point of. It really has so little recent hymnody in it. It seems a token hymn book so that EH devotees can show that they've moved on without really having done so.
To my mind Common Praise offers the best all round collection of mainly traditional hymns but with a fair selection of more recent hymns added too.
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Most I know have flat, greasy hair, wear thick spectacles and have hideous pimples, no dress sense and wear their wrist-watches on the left.
Doesn't everyone wear their watch on the left? Have I been committing some unkown social gaff all these years? You've got me quite worried now!
I've seen a number of choir's with cassock-albs that are not unlike hoodies really.
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On the other hand how often do you get DOA's who refuse to let a new organ into the church because the old one "has been perfectly acceptable for the last X number of years". Seems to be a whole different ball game at Worcester. It seems it was good enough for Elgar.
A number of us put forward similar arguments at length last year, but this serves no useful purpose. Its time to move on and accept, with thanks, Adrian Lucas' willingness to provide us with progress reports on the new instrument.
I think you'll find that the instrument in its final form had little in common with that known to Elgar.
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I have to agree with you here, Paul. The 1917 setting in G major is one of the most stunning services which I get to play - for me the Gloria of the Magnificat even eclipses in effect that of the Collegium Regale setting.
Incidentally, Adrian is correct - my copy at that point is page 13, but there is an erroneus C-flat there, too. Presumably Stainer and Bell were not appraised of the error before issuing reprints.
Its not a service that has stuck in my memory, and I must say that I've found the accompaniment alone to be rather dull and uninspiring to learn (though, thankfully, very straightforward), so I look forward to hearing it with the choir (RSCM Cathedral Singers in Tewkesbury Abbey) tomorrow.
Anyway, thats 2-0 in favour of A flat 7th for the big chord which certainly sounds better than whats printed. (Actually I find it almost impossible to play the chord with both C flat and C natural as printed, something in my brain or fingers rebels against it. Change it to either A flat minor 7th or A flat major 7th and it becomes easy)
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Adrian,
can I just say that I think its marvellous that a person of your stature takes the time to reply, and so swiftly, to queries of this nature. Particularly so when the initial query came from someone who, it is fair to say, has not been your stongest supporter on these message boards (ie. me).
Many thanks
Neil
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I've just been working up the accompaniment to Howells G Major mag & nunc, which I've not played before. The copy I have, and I guess there's only one edition, is a Stainer & Bell. I'm wondering whether the "Big" chord that comes just before "world without end" on page 15 of my copy is a misprint. This is the chord with the E flat in the Bass, as printed there is a C flat in the left hand and a C natural in the right hand. To my ears this sounds horrible! Does anyone know if its a misprint?
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The Rodgers we have bought for the Quire (later for the Nave, once the Tickell instrument is installed) has been a great success. It is flexible, reliable and colourful. It can sound a bit "gloopy" depending upon where you stand, but it has some fantastic stops - my favourite is the Flûte Harmonique on the Great which is pure liquid gold - and the 8 subwoofers can really shake the floor. That said, there are some less successful stops - I am not a fan of the American Flute Celestes and Erzahler Celestes and the organ could do with a really good Clarinet.
That nicely sums up the pros and cons of Rodgers' toasters. You are getting an uncompromisingly american instrument. When we were choosing for my own church a couple of years ago we took the view that we didn't want to have stops that would sing 'ooh' and sing 'Amen', but we did want a clarinet.
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Sean,
The organ was certainly at its best when playing loudly on a Summer's day. On a winter's day when the humidity is at its lowest, you might have witnessed a very different experience. It was on one of these occasions that the organ let us down in a spectacularly impressive display of bad behaviour.
In fairness to your stated experience, I would imagine that our team of staff who play the organ for around 40 weeks of the year would be more likely to notice the missing notes in various parts of the organ, especially as we tend to stretch the instruments capabilities, using separate multi-manual configurations, often using single stops where such faults become very obvious. Add to this the whole plethora of intermittent faults from swell machines, stop motors, piston memory losses, quite apart from the winding issue (particularly on the Great and Solo) when playing loud voluntaries. There were also the electrical faults latterly whereby drawing one stop on Great or Choir would bring on 2 or 3 other stops which would not work on their own. Then there were the leaking trunks under the Swell which would sing on cold days on any note which would clash with the responses...
Then we move on to the experience of listening to the organ from the choir and conductor's point of view. Those Swell sounds which were so delicate to the ear of the player become harsh and, potentially, extremely loud out at the front, thereby limiting their use, particularly when you are playing for a weekday Cathedral Choir of 3 men and a maximum of 9 boys on each side.
I could go on... but I would much rather look forward.
A
Both Sean and I must have been amongst the last visiting organists to have had the pleasure of playing on the old Worcester instrument, and we both found its faults to be exaggerated, Forgive me for saying that I find the comments re. those who play the instument for 40 weeks of the year to be somewhat patronising. The question underlying this debate is not whether the old organ was unreliable, but whether it was worth restoring. Those of us that believe the old organ worthy of restoration clearly should by now have moved on and be sincerely hoping for great things in the future. Whether we believe Worcester have chosen their new organ builders on the basis of quality or of cost is, of course, an entirely different matter.,
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It was in the Cygnet restaurant. The organ was removed c1980 to Ventnor on the Isle of Wight (into a private basement theatre below a jewellers' shop) when its owners relocated. It was sold some years ago now and I believe resides in Australia.
When in Worcester the organ (a Compton ex Pavilion, Reading for those who might actually want to know) somehow acquired the nickname "The Countess" and Nigel Ogden did actually compose "The Countess of Worcester Waltz" for it, although I've only ever heard it once, and suspect that not even Nigel now has a copy!
And the Mitsukoshi store in Tokyo which has a three manual Wurlitzer. Apparently because of the temperature/humidity all the ivories are attached to the keys with tiny brass screws rather than glue.
I was a student in Worcester from 1976 - 1980 and remember attending an event in the restaurant to mark some degree of restoration or refurbishment of the instrument. There was a celebrity reopening which may when have been Nigel Ogden but I can't honestly remember. It seems sad that the instrument was moved so soon after this event and even sadder that its now in Australia.
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I agree with the (so far) general view that it shouldn't matter what type of console you learn on, providing its reliable and fit for purpose. If you achieve even modest success as an organist you will find yourself playing a variety of instruments of many differing layouts and designs - and you have to be able to adjust quickly and get on with the job.
I learnt on a 3m instrument with no thumb pistons and just 3 old-style composition pedals to each of swell and great. Hand registration was vital. I would suggest that its no disadvantage to learn on such an instrument. Its probably easier to adapt to using thumb pistons, toes pistons, steppers etc. later on that it is to manage without them if you become to dependant upon them. I remember the late John Sanders coming to play for the opening service and recital when this organ was restored c1976 - he was completely flumuxed by the lack of pistons and couldn't cope at all well. By contrast Roy Massey came and gave a recital not too long afterwards and seemed completely at home with it from start to finish.
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I recall seeing a televised service from Worcester, a good few years ago. It was held in the Nave, and there were shots of Paul Trepte playing a 2-man detached console at floor level. Would this have been http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch...ec_index=N12743 ? From what I recall, there seemed to be a heck of a lot of noise coming from it..
Your npor link is correct. The two-manual nave organ was, in itself, quite a weedy affair. It was mounted on two separate mobile platforms (swell & great) with the console on a third mobile platform, so that the whole thing could be wheeled down to the west end when the seating in the cathedral was reversed for major concerts. How useful this really was, other than for continuo, is debatable as this instrument had no chance of making an audible contribution with a symphony orchestra and large chorus in competition.
When the organ was in its usual position, just to the west of the central crossing, the console also had stop tabs to operate the quire organ's "solo" division, plus a small number of pedal stops, sited within the huge case in the south transept. As discussed before, the Worcester "solo" was in reallity an early attempt at a nave great, consisting of very full diapasons at 8', 4', 2', mixture, plus two powerful trumpets at 16' and 8'.
This did not however mean that the quire organ was lacking in solo voices. The trumpet 8' on the solo could be used in voluntaries but was not very useful for service work as the distance from the quire reduced its impact and also introduced a time lag in the sound. However the great posaune (and the tromba that it replaced) could be used to wonderful effect with the "Great reeds on solo" transfer. The choir organ provided a lovely enclosed clarinet and also some keen strings for contrast with the more gentle strings on the swell. There was also a fat Hohl flute on the great.
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There used to be a restaurant in Worcester (in The Tything to be more precise for locals) that had a cinema organ installed in an upstairs room, with grills (no pun intended) in the floor/ceiling to allow the sound into the main room downstairs.
I've no idea whether its still there.
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I too would like to thank Adrian Lucas for the wonderful photos and for being prepared to start this thread providing (hopefully) progress reports on the Worcester project despite the criticism it has received, from myself amongst others, on these message boards. Those of us that were not fully convinced the old organ was irredeemable have had our say, at some length, and must now move on. That is not to say that the photos do not inspire some sadness, and many happy memories. I too lament the passing of the old console, which I think was probably the most comfortable I've ever played - although I love the Willis III console at Hereford, even if the massed ranks of rocker-tab couplers are a daunting prospect to the occasional visitor.
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I must confess I hate Weddings . I use to enjoy playing for them at one time but lets be honest here. Its dosent matter what u play the Wedding party and guests behave disgusting in Church. Loud conversations Children roaming around the Church Babies bawling their heads off. And while all this is going on you are expected to play for see these god forsaken muppets. Personally, I play everything at double the speed so I can make my exit discreetly having wrestle with the Best Man to pay me .
I just confess that I have a lot of sympathy with this view point, although, thankfully, fees are correctly handled so that the need for physical involvement with the best man is minimized. Its a fact of life that many older parish churches are located just over the road from the local hostelry and many of the wedding guests arrive in the former directly on exit from the latter. As Ronald has implied, behavioural standards have been in steady decline in recent years and the period before the service can be something of a trial. Increasingly the bad behaviour is now likely to resume during the signing of the registers.
Its a shame. I'm sure we all still get the odd couple (perhaps I should say "occasional couple") that you can talk to sensibly about hymn and incidental music choices, where the bride turns up on time and the relatives show a reasonable level of decorum, and its still a pleasure to contribute to their "happy day". But in my experience, the vast majority now think that they are hiring the church for the occasion, and that, as they're paying, they can behave as they see fit and have whatever they want.
And, by the way, I still think I should be fully entitled either to lock up the organ and go home if the bride hasn't processed in within 5 minutes of the scheduled start time, or to require a hefty deposit (at least the equal again of the basic fee) to be made in advance to be paid to me in these circumstances.
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Sacre-Coeur recording is on Motette CD40081. The singing is not of a high standard but the atmosphere is terrific and the solo organ items very pleasing.
H
I certainly recommend this CD - which I first mentioned on this thread - and which has been widely discussed. The recording of "Tus es patra" is just phenomenal - certainly on the slow side - but what sounds! When the pedal reeds and kitchen sink come in for the final bars its just fantastic. Turn the volume up and b*****r the neighbours.
The Notre Dame - Cochereau recording I only have on cassette - does anyone know if its currently available on CD, it would be good to upgrade.
Straying even further off subject, I also have a treasured CD, FYCD 019, entitled "Les Offices du Dimanche a Notre-Dame de Paris" consisting of organ improvisations (Cochereau), incantations and choral items recorded live during Sunday offices. I think its just amazing. Does anyone else have this?
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I've done 'Whiter shade of pale' and 'Bridge over troubled water' in the past, though not recently, and have had couples exit to the Liberty Bell on several occasions.
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Jerusalem is not nationalistic....it is quite sardonic.
I've never been able to understand why so many people believe this is a hymn all about how perfect and beautiful our country is, its always seemed to mean quite the opposite to me. It is frequently requested for weddings and I too fail to see how it can be regarded as appropriate.
We get a fair few 'Dear Lord and Father's, which never fails to amuse me. The last verse is so unfortunate for a wedding ("let sense be dumb, let flesh retire, speak through the earthquake....". Also get a fair number of requests for 'Lord of the dance', these must be the S&M brigade I guess.
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We are in an interregnum period so I choose the hymns and tunes. For each service I look at the prescribed psalm(s) if there is one, OT lesson, NT lesson any relevant Saint's Day and Collect and taking into account the season of the year I hopefully choose appropriate hymns.
In theory I draw up a monthly music list, including all hymns & psalms, and present it to the vicar for review. In practice I'm afraid to say that its usually too last minute for their to be much prospect of review but the vicar places great trust in my judgement and there's not usually an issue.
As Frank suggests, its more or less essential to look up the readings set in the lectionary and try to find hymns that are relevant. The RSCM 'Sunday by Sunday' booklet is a great help and shortcut with respect to the parish eucharist, but doesn't cover evensong or any other services.
I do have fairly regular discussion meetings with the vicar, but choice of music is not normally one of the topics that gets discussed. This is not to say that he might not suggest an anthem that he'd like us to add to our repertoire - but he'd never insist if his suggestion was either not to my taste or if I thought it too difficult or too 'big' for us.
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Love this work. I recommend the recording by Westminster Cathedral Choir.
I love it too, but why not go for the real McCoy in terms of recordings? I have two "live" recodings, one in Notre Dame with Pierre Cochereau at the Grande Orgue, which is exciting and spectacular but not always together, and the other a much slower, but always atmospheric, recording from Sacre Coeur.
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Very smart website http://www.taylorandboody.com/home.htm proves that not all American organs are 300 stop monstrosities.
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I'm surprised at the level of vitriol in this thread.
I personally don't think the sound sample is the most musical singing for some of the reasons outlined by other correspondents. To be specific I would certainly prefer the musical stress to be on the first and third beats of the bar, and I really think the gap before the word 'morning' is diabolical. Not only does it sound rediculously contrived, but it also ensures that the word 'morning' comes in with a most unmusical thump to my ears.
I'm sure there are many different theories about how to, or whether to, or which, vowel sounds should be modified during singing. I can't entirely go along with the idea that singing is a purely natural exercise and therefore just do what comes naturally. This brings to mind to old joke about the vicar and the gardener...with the punch line "ah but you should have seen what it were like when ee ad it all to imself."
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I had to chuckle when I read your final paragraph. I know of one RC priest who would blow a gasket if you try to do anything to do with Mary during communion. The mental image I have is guite humerous. Apparently it's not liturgically correct as the emphasis should be on Jesus at that point - appearently.
Surely "Ave Verum Corpus", whilst making reference to being "born of the Virgin Mary", is entirely about the Body (and passion) of Christ and would be considered a very fitting communion text in both Anglican and RC circles. The three settings which I guess are in most common UK use - Byrd, Mozart and Elgar - all have catholic composers.
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I've tried playing the tune over a few times or improvising on it (or a mixture of both) before the service, but in reality too many people are nattering noisily and no-one ever takes any notice of what I'm playing before the service !
I've also tried doing a short teach-in on the new tune before the service starts but this is not very popular with the congregation, possibly because it makes them feel self-concious, or more probably because it interferes too much with the aforesaid nattering.
I'm sure that if we advertised a special new-hymn learning session once a year no-one would bother to turn up. (Sorry if I'm sounding somewhat defeatist here.) The bottom line is that my congregation don't like having any new hymns. I've tried pointing out that every hymn that they now know was new to them at some time, and that every well known "standard" hymn was once a newly written/composed hymn that doubtless people of the time complained about. Goodness only knows how they ever managed to pick up "All my hope on God is founded", and "Living Lord" for example - I suppose they were all 40 years younger at the time.
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I wonder if anyone has a really successful method for introducing new/unknown hymns to a congregation. I find this to be very problematic. I fully understand that the congregation feel frustrated if there is a hymn that they don't know, but there has to be the possibility of introducing new hymns to them.
A case in point arose yesterday when I picked as the final hymn at the 10:00am eucharist "From glory to glory advancing" to the tune (whose name escapes me) by Holst. It seemed to me to fit yesterday's transfiguration readings really well. I've always thought this to be a very strong and uplifiting hymn, but it was new to my congregation and went like a lead balloon. At least with this particular hymn there is the possibility of using it again a few times to try to get it into peoples' memories, but with other hymns this is not always the case.
Things That Really Annoy You
in The Organ
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I occassionally leave the third out of the final chord altogether (almost always in conjucntion with a tune in a minor key) to leave a certain abiguity...