Change And Decay?

[Guest Roffensis]

[Hereford, Lincoln, Canterbury, Salisbury and St. Mary, Redcliffe have all been altered to varying degrees. Whilst in some cases, these alterations were easily-reversible trifling affairs, others were rather more comprehensive. Even St. Mary, Redcliffe has had the GO and Swell Organ mixture compositions altered twice (I think) in the last twenty or so years. Then, of course, there was the replacement of most of the Swell Organ, necessitated by a fire in or around the 1940s.

 

I strongly suspect that there are further un-documented alterations which have been made to these (and other) instruments. It is only comparatively recently that we in this country have developed an obsession with recording and stringently assessing any proposed work on our church organs. Quite often, even in cathedral records, small alterations are inadequately or incorrectly recorded; trherefore it is possible that we may have a slightly-distorted sound 'picture' of our cathedral organs.

 

It is only with a small number of instruments - for example, Reading Town Hall, Oxford Town Hall and possibly Blenheim Palace that we may have a more accurate record of that which 'Father' Willis intended. Even then - are we certain that no organ builder ever altered the voicing, or the scaling - or even substituted a rank of pipes?

 

I accept all of this but I would be astounded if it were otherwise. Few of us when /if we reach the age of these instruments will be in the same condition we left the womb or even that we were in when we started our first job ! False teeth, spectacles, hair pieces for those particularly worried by hair loss, and for some artificial limbs, pace-makers or titanium plates in the skull. Despite all this intervention or supplementation we consider ourselves to be the same person as we always have been. I think the organs mentioned are regarded as essentially the same and recognisable as the same person despite changes wrought by time and changes of fashion (eg as regards hair length for those still fortunate enough to possess it). Reading, Oxford and Blenheim would seem to have lasted better than some others or perhaps adopted a different approach to fashion, but have still not escaped completely the ravages of time and the consequent work to fix them.

 

Brian Childs

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I may well be changing and decaying and maybe I am a little more laid back than the headstrong guy I was in my twenties!! Despite these ravages to my soul I can honestly say that I have always held staunchly a view of strick adherence to original tonal schemes. I do not consider I will ever alter my view, and I was made aware of such twinkerings as go on by an old man, who had seen the lot. I litsened, and learned. Every year that passes I witness more of what he warned of. You are quite right, I also know of many organs that appear on paper as they were, but with pipes stuffed under bellows and replaced. It goes on, and it should stop. But, again!.....wont.

[Guest Barry Oakley]

The organ in Bridlington Priory is often quoted as a nationally important example of Charles Anneessens' work, yet has just been rebuilt with around 17 or 18 new stops. Why?

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Perhaps you should ask Paul Hale at Southwell Minster. He is the consultant for the Bridlington Priory rebuild.

[Pierre Lauwers]

Should you want the Anneessens back, there is

a successor in Belgium. Just a tought.

 

Best wishes,

Pierre

[Guest Roffensis]

May I ask which instrument this is, please?

 

Well, I am just glad that our Walker is not a 'Friday afternoon' organ!

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Most interesting about the soundboards of Blackburn. This is of course well on contemporary to Liverpool Metropolitan Cathedral, whose soundboards have a very good slider seal system with huge cutouts to avoid runnings.It begs the question what type Blackburn's soundboards are now, and if plain slider then the seal is never perfect, and that in itslef would account perhaps for the loss of brilliance this organ has now to its fair name. The sheer fire is not what it was, it is decidedly more (too) polite. Tut tut.

[MusingMuso]

Most interesting about the soundboards of Blackburn. This is of course well on contemporary to Liverpool Metropolitan Cathedral, whose soundboards have a very good slider seal system with huge cutouts to avoid runnings.It begs the question what type Blackburn's soundboards are now, and if plain slider then the seal is never perfect, and that in itslef would account perhaps for the loss of brilliance this organ has now to its fair name. The sheer fire is not what it was, it is decidedly more (too) polite. Tut tut.

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I cannot add anything more of interest I'm afraid. However, I didn't notice any loss of brilliance or fire when I heard it last, and actually expressed my relief to Richard Tanner that the instrument sounded as good as ever.

 

What I DID note was the difference when the sub-octave coupler was used, and this gave a distorted sense of balance with some degree of added mud which had never been there previously. With the 32ft digital voices underneath that, the effect was not terribly attractive I thought, but I can appreciate the value of the added body for accompaniment purposes.

 

David Wood tells me that he went to great pains to retain the character of the instrument, and spoke regularly to Dennis Thurlow during the re-building of the instrument.

 

One thing is sure, everyone was at pains to preserve what they knew to be so good, and if they were only 99% successful, then I believe we should all be happy with that.

 

MM

[Guest Roffensis]

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I cannot add anything more of interest I'm afraid. However, I didn't notice any loss of brilliance or fire when I heard it last, and actually expressed my relief to Richard Tanner that the instrument sounded as good as ever.

 

What I DID note was the difference when the sub-octave coupler was used, and this gave a distorted sense of balance with some degree of added mud which had never been there previously. With the 32ft digital voices underneath that, the effect was not terribly attractive I thought, but I can appreciate the value of the added body for accompaniment purposes.

 

David Wood tells me that he went to great pains to retain the character of the instrument, and spoke regularly to Dennis Thurlow during the re-building of the instrument.

 

One thing is sure, everyone was at pains to preserve what they knew to be so good, and if they were only 99% successful, then I believe we should all be happy with that.

 

MM

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Well of course the digital stops and sub octave don't have to be used........I very much agree about the "mud" effect, which is also a feature of Gloucester. The recital series at my own church has just begun, and it is a 3 decker HNB of 1927. This is one of those "every stop counts" jobs, and you use any manual 16' or even Open No.1 at your peril because it gets muddy. The pedal open really is very ponderous. But it's amazing how organsits will go for what they hear at the console and end up using thick tone which just blurs. All personal taste I suppose!

[Guest Leathered-Lips]

Well of course the digital stops and sub octave don't have to be used........I very much agree about the "mud" effect, which is also a feature of Gloucester. The recital series at my own church has just begun, and it is a 3 decker HNB of 1927. This is one of those "every stop counts" jobs, and you use any manual 16' or even Open No.1 at your peril because it gets muddy. The pedal open really is very ponderous. But it's amazing how organsits will go for what they hear at the console and end up using thick tone which just blurs. All personal taste I suppose!

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Shocking! and MOST dreadful...*throws up hands in horror*, were there altercations? I'm sure all that tone would have been beautiful really. Was this a recital of English organ music by any chance? I did hear it was one for the ladies...the talk of gaydar apparently, whoever he is.

[pcnd5584]

Well of course the digital stops and sub octave don't have to be used........I very much agree about the "mud" effect, which is also a feature of Gloucester.

 

Well, that is something else over which we shall have to disagree!

 

I agree with Mark Blatchly - having played Gloucester many times, both before and after the restoration, I find that the Swell Sub Octave is extremely useful. The added gravitas, used with discretion, helps to fill-out the sound. It is, after all, not an unusual stop - most cathedral organs have a Swell Sub Octave.

 

The last section of Tu es Petra (Mulet) sounds somewhat more grand with the Swell Sub Octave. I use the effect on my own church instrument - for example, on a recent recording. The final track is the Choral from the 2me Symphonie by Vierne. The final section, without the Swell Sub Octave, just sounds thin and top-heavy. With it, the balance is restored and there is a sense of grandeur to the sound. Only in the lowest left-hand note of the last chord is there a slight sense of muddiness. However, it is, in my opinion, preferable to the alternative.

[Peter Allison]

I remember a few years ago (1980 something) , the organ in St. Peters parish church in Harrogate was"sort of" rebuilt by a Bert Prested of Bearpark, Durham ( ex Harrisons), as I remember, it was a 4 manual Walker, complete with a good Tuba. As the organ had nothing below 16ft on the pedal and the newish organist wanted 32's, Ernest Hart of London added a 32ft open wood and a 32ft reed. these mixed in very well with the existing pipework, and , considering digital electronics had only just really got of the ground. A problem that does seem to occur is space and price, I do not know know what a pair of 32ft pedal stops cost these days. And with most peoples hearing, and the frequency response of these digital registers, its hard to tell sometimes. I know you cannot get a speaker, no matter how big it is, to "move" the air the same way as a true wooden/ metal rank shifts it. I do not want to start a digital V pipe debate as its all been said in O>R and The Organ etc

Peter

[pcnd5584]

Space can pose a not-inconsiderable problem. A bass reflex horn capable of reproducing the 16.355hz frequency of a CCCC pipe is not exactly compact. Ideally it should, I believe, be sited on a substantial surface such as stone or concrete.

 

There is also the question of longevity. I think that it would be fair to say that electronic components do not last as long as pipes. Whilst there are recorded examples of electronic organs lasting several decades, most components mass-produced these days tend not to be so robust. It is worth giving time to consider the possible availability of replacement parts in several years' time. One only has to consider a PC to know how problematic this can be. My scanner was supplied by Tiny. It does not work. Tiny have gone into liquidation - therefore I have no customer support and I need a new scanner....

 

Furthermore, however realistic sampled 32p stops are, they do not 'move the air' in the same way that pipes do - there is no appreciable kinetic energy. The Rodgers organs used at Gloucester Cathedral while the FHW/H&H/HN&B/RD/Nicholson instrument was being restored did not 'excite' the acoustic - particularly the reverberation - in the same manner that the pipe organ does. It sounded considerably less-resonant, or at least that it were situated in a considerably less-resonant building. After a comparatively short time, I found that the sound was wearisome.

 

For my money, a better solution is to extend a Bourdon down to the 32p octave. It will not take much room and even in a dry acoustic it can be quite effective.

[Guest Roffensis]

Space can pose a not-inconsiderable problem. A bass reflex horn capable of reproducing the 16.355hz frequency of a CCCC pipe is not exactly compact. Ideally it should, I believe, be sited on a substantial surface such as stone or concrete.

 

There is also the question of longevity. I think that it would be fair to say that electronic components do not last as long as pipes. Whilst there are recorded examples of electronic organs lasting several decades, most components mass-produced these days tend not to be so robust. It is worth giving time to consider the possible availability of replacement parts in several years' time. One only has to consider a PC to know how problematic this can be. My scanner was supplied by Tiny. It does not work. Tiny have gone into liquidation - therefore I have no customer support and I need an new scanner....

 

Furthermore, however realistic sampled 32p stops are, they do not 'move the air' in the same way that pipes do - there is no appreciable kinetic energy. The Rodgers organs used at Gloucester Cathedral while the FHW/H&H/HN&B/RD/Nicholson instrument was being restored did not 'excite' the acoustic - particularly the reverberation - in the same manner that the pipe organ does. It sounded considerably less-resonant, or at least that it were situated in a considerably less-resonant building. After a comparatively short time, I found that the sound was wearisome.

 

For my money, a better solution is to extend a Bourdon down to the 32p octave. It will not take much room and even in a dry acoustic it can be quite effective.

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Well said. I also agree with the electronic points, and well recall a leading firm placing speaking in every conceivable place in Liverpool Cathedral for a Battle of the organs, but they could find no positon it worked even half decent and they ended up face up in the chancel sounding plain pathetic . I page turned during the rehearsal, and then had to sit through this din for the concert proper, so had a double serving. A bit like the current west end electronic toaster that needs to go on the skip, quick. Today preferably. Yesterday even . My two subwoofers in my loft go down to 10 HZ, and quite honestly, its an effect, but it is just not anything like the real thing.