Bach Interpretation

[Colin Harvey]

Everyone, do also listen to Anton Heiller and his perfect tempo of the G minor fugue, Helmut Walcha (who hits many musical sweet spots missed at faster tempi), Schweitzer and the E Power Biggs Polonaises as well. Van Trichte also hits the spot for me - it's so convincing, measured, perceptive and soooo passionate - in the true romantic manner. These are excellent and inspiring performances.

 

I'm rather interested to note the similarities between E Power Biggs and Fox in their registrational crescendos in the Jig fugue and A minor prelude and fugue. Who'd have thought it!

 

I have to say GTB fugue leaves me cold at all levels, although the recording quality is not great. The organ sounds deeply unattractive, even after the remarkably ugly Atlantic City, and while the playing is fast, it gives no insight or inspiration. It sounds like the recoding engineer turned down the volume knob on the final page - a very strange effect.

[MusingMuso]

Delvin makes some excellent points.

 

However, surely the real point is that this thread is, in a way, redundant. Leaving aside the fact that this topic has already been discussed on other threads, in the end it is up the the player, the instrument, the acoustic - and the occasion.

 

Since we have no way of knowing, for the most part, exactly how JSB preferred his works to be played (assuming that there is an 'ideal' vehicle for the performance of his music), this thread is unlikely to achieve anything in the way of ground-breaking facts.

 

However, it could also be argued that there is little point in drawing-up (imaginary) schemes for rebuilds which may - or may not - take place; I find this pleasantly diverting, so I would not wish to spoil the fun of another contributor who does desire to discuss this matter.

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I'm not aware that we are talking about "ground-breaking facts". Rather, we are talking about the dictates of changing fashion, to which we are all victim, but without becoming apologist for those performances which go beyond the limits of that which we might describe as being in "good taste".

 

Virgil Fox certainly exceeded the boundaries of "good taste" very often, but that is not to suggest that he wasn't aware of what he was doing, when he replaced panache and style, with break-neck virtuosity and excessive displays of the dramatic, pathetic or purely affected.

 

It's not about Virgil Fox, his many disciples, or even about Geroge Thalben-Ball storming his way through BWV565 as if he had a train to catch.

 

Having sat through a re-creation of that which Straube may have done shortly after the turn of the 20th century, and been very moved by what I heard, I do actually value rather than despise this style of playing; which has its origins in the piano transcription style represented by Tausig and Busoni especially. If we further understand that this was the style also exported to America, with its many German derived citizens (many of them Jewish incidentally), then the symphonic Bach style starts to make sense, if perhaps not the greatest of art, with all respect to the achievements of many.

 

It is very easy to dismiss that which inspired a whole generation as simply "flawed" or somehow second-rate, when in point of fact, a previous age assumed that this was the correct way.

 

Now "pcnd" makes an interesting statement, to the affect that we do now actually know how Bach played his own organ-works, but I would suggest that this is untrue to a large extent.

 

Pierre Lauwers rightly points out that Bach is not especially associated with the sound of Silbermann or Schnitger, even though the combined wisdom of the German "orgelbewegun" thought that this was the ideal sound for Bach. That stated, Bach was certainly impressed enough by the work of Arp Schnitger to want to go to Hamburg, and Bach played on such an instrument certainly sounds absolutely right for the music.

 

Between the limits of "brain dead" and "hyper-active re-creation," there is a very finite middle ground, which concerns particular nuances of phrasing and detail, tempi and manual-changes. Sit at a great baroque organ in a great continental "barn," and play Bach or Bruhns or Buxtehude. The instrument

becomes your teacher, because the church acoustic and the organ action will absolutely dictate the pace. If the stops stretch sideways towards the horizon, you can be sure that stop-changes on the hoof are quite difficult. Devoid of registrational aids, you know that gradual crescendi and diminuendi are virtually impossible, short of employing a small team of registrands. Naturally, there were no swell-boxes to develop the light and shade of romantic performances.

 

So not only is the organ your greatest tutor, it also becomes your greatest musical enemy, for we have to face the challenge of making real music on what is actually a fairly primitive machine, and we have very little at our disposal.

 

Middelschulte, the great German champion of Bach (greatly admired by Busoni), said something to Virgil Fox which stuck with me, when he stated, "Of all instruments, the organ is the most mechanical and the least expressive, and to reach the hearts of people is to achieve something".

 

I suspect that a whole generation of organists in America took this to mean orchestral interpretation, using every means at their disposal; the means being quite considerable, to say the least. I would draw the comparison between Rembrant and Andy Warhol; the former subtle and gracious, and the latter very much "in your face", but each genuinely falling into the category of "art" in so much as they reflect an age, an attitude and a particular "school of thought".

 

Our questions must therefore be directed in a different way, by asking what is the purpose of art. If it is simply to pay hommage to the historical by way of some assumed "authenticity" of approach, or is it to speak in a "theological" way to those of a different sensibility?

 

Is a Walt Disney cartoon art or not? Is a cat chasing a mouse deep and meaningful? It is certainly entertaining and amusing; especially when the mouse is inside a grand-piano, in what was possibly Disney's greatest "Tom & Jerry" cartoon., "The concert pianist"

 

Yet cartoon art can indeed be very deep and meaningful, as the following illustrates:-

 

http://www.lilitu.com/catland/gallery/wallpaper.shtml

(Be sure to read the commentary)

 

Which is the greater artist, Pieter Bruegel (Flemish) in a delightfully light-hearted but virtuosic moment:-

 

http://www.artchive.com/artchive/B/bruegel..._games.jpg.html

 

or

 

L S Lowry with his "After the fire" (owned by a friend of mine), which simply shows a burned out mill and vague back-images of "matchstick" people, silently gazing at the aftermath....a chilling painting for anyone who witnessed such an event, where loss of life was commonplace in the mills of the industrial north. (L S Lowry being part-time fireman at some stage, when he wasn't selling insurance policies). With his very limited technique, L S Lowry found real depth.

 

Say what you will about Straube's Bach, but he was communicating with people of a particularly romantic disposition; forever searching for the beautiful melodic-line within the web of counterpoint, and clothing it in the operatic high-drama of Wagner.

 

We can easily criticise Virgil Fox for his contribution, when seen out of context, but lest we forget, this was during a lifteime which witnessed a whole country emerging from the deepest economic recession in history, to the point of putting a man on the moon in a single generation. It is the sheer energy and vitality of an industrious nation which is being expressed in those startling Bach performances which Virgil Fox gave. You may not like them, but by God, you can't ignore them!

 

With E.Power-Biggs and G.Donald-Harrison (and also Lawrence Phelps) came scholarship and historic authenticity to match a new chapter in American history, which saw the rise of great academic thinking based on classical principles. It was no isolated phenomenon when these people rose to prominence, for they were the right people, in the right place at the right time, who found their niche in America at places like Yale, Harvard and Chicago, amongst others.

 

In a way, the Virgil Fox/ Ted Worth/Carlo Curley symphonic style, and the more scholarly approach of the previously named gentleman and their disciples to-day, actually reflects the American phenomenon of two Americas living in the same country. There are the Americans who enjoy a "balls-out" red-blooded approach to being a real American, and the smaller number of very gifted intellectuals who actually earn the money and keep the country afloat.

 

Perhaps in art, there are no absolute rights and wrongs, but merely degrees of interpretation and re-interpretation. If we are incapable of recognising that fact, then not only do we deman art itself, but we fall into the trap of elitism and musical snobbery.

 

Of course, all sides can at least agree on one thing. Florence Foster-Jenkins was deliciously, wonderfully and extravagently awful, to the point that she elevated appalling bad-taste to the very height of artistic achievement, because no-one could ever follow her should they feel the need to.

 

To have reached the heart of people, as both she and Virgil Fox did, and from totally opposite ends of the spectrum, was indeed to achieve something....indeed something was achieved.

 

Trouble is, I'm not quite sure what it was!

 

MM

[MusingMuso]

Everyone, do also listen to Anton Heiller and his perfect tempo of the G minor fugue, Helmut Walcha (who hits many musical sweet spots missed at faster tempi), Schweitzer and the E Power Biggs Polonaises as well. Van Trichte also hits the spot for me - it's so convincing, measured, perceptive and soooo passionate - in the true romantic manner. These are excellent and inspiring performances.

 

I'm rather interested to note the similarities between E Power Biggs and Fox in their registrational crescendos in the Jig fugue and A minor prelude and fugue. Who'd have thought it!

 

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Oh yes! Wasn't Tony Heiller just wonderful as a Bach performer, and Reger as well, of course?

 

I am absolutely delighted that Colin liked the van Trichte performance; the only I could find in that style. I suspect that he reacted the same way I did when I heard something similar at Doesburg in Holland, played on the big Walcker organ.

 

It was so different, and subtle and very moving, in a way that was totally contrary to anything I had ever heard previously.

 

Isn't that the amazing thing about Bach's music? You can expand it, re-write it to some extent, mess about with it and even "Swingel" it....but the music survives miraculously well, more often than not.

 

Yay for Sir Malcolm Sargent and the Huddersfiel Choral Society!!

 

MM

[pcnd5584]

Now "pcnd" makes an interesting statement, to the affect that we do now actually know how Bach played his own organ-works, but I would suggest that this is untrue to a large extent.

 

MM

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Actually, I wrote the exact opposite:

 

Since we have no way of knowing, for the most part, exactly how JSB preferred his works to be played (assuming that there is an 'ideal' vehicle for the performance of his music), this thread is unlikely to achieve anything in the way of ground-breaking facts.I

[Pierre Lauwers]

"this thread is unlikely to achieve anything in the way of ground-breaking facts."

(Quote)

 

This is about the only thing we are sure with....

Fact is, we do *not* know.

 

Pierre

[MusingMuso]

"this thread is unlikely to achieve anything in the way of ground-breaking facts."

(Quote)

 

This is about the only thing we are sure with....

Fact is, we do *not* know.

 

Pierre

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"Not"......Thank you Pierre, that was the word I intended

 

MM

[Dulciana]

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Is a Walt Disney cartoon art or not?  Is a cat chasing a mouse deep and meaningful? It is certainly entertaining and amusing; especially when the mouse is inside a grand-piano, in what was possibly Disney's greatest "Tom & Jerry" cartoon., "The concert pianist"

 

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Tom and Jerry never had anything to do with Walt Disney, as far as I know.

[MusingMuso]

Tom and Jerry never had anything to do with Walt Disney, as far as I know.

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I shall have to research this!

 

 

MM

[MusingMuso]

Tom and Jerry never had anything to do with Walt Disney, as far as I know.

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You are quite right, it was an MGM animation-studio creation; the rights to which now rest with Warner Bros.

 

It's interesting that this cartoon was probably drawn in Eastern Europe, where they have a powerful cartoon and animation "industry" to this day. (Czech Republic?)

 

Anyway, here it is for your delight:-

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8z5JON-fOc

 

 

 

MM

[Dulciana]

====================

 

You are quite right, it was an MGM animation-studio creation; the rights to which now rest with Warner Bros.

 

It's interesting that this cartoon was probably drawn in Eastern Europe, where they have a powerful cartoon and animation "industry" to this day. (Czech Republic?)

 

Anyway, here it is for your delight:-

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8z5JON-fOc

 

MM

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It's a fantastic cartoon, and this is one of my earliest memories of classical music. The Liszt Hungarian rhapsody used in this cartoon (no 2 in C sharp minor I think) you could almost think had been written for it! Interesting that this should arise in a thread about interpretation. This music has been interpreted brilliantly by the animators. But is it what Liszt intended when he wrote it?.....

[MusingMuso]

It's a fantastic cartoon, and this is one of my earliest memories of classical music.  The Liszt Hungarian rhapsody used in this cartoon (no 2 in C sharp minor I think) you could almost think had been written for it!  Interesting that this should arise in a thread about interpretation.  This music has been interpreted brilliantly by the animators.  But is it what Liszt intended when he wrote it?.....

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I don't know how Liszt would have reacted, but knowing the Hungarians, probably he would not have been amused.

 

On the other hand, Leos Janacek's opera "The Cunning Little Vixen" was actually inspired by a cartoon.

 

The things you learn on this board!!

 

 

MM

[Guest Lee Blick]

It's a fantastic cartoon, and this is one of my earliest memories of classical music.  The Liszt Hungarian rhapsody used in this cartoon (no 2 in C sharp minor I think) you could almost think had been written for it!  Interesting that this should arise in a thread about interpretation.  This music has been interpreted brilliantly by the animators.  But is it what Liszt intended when he wrote it?.....

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Gosh, I wonder what a Tom & Jerry English cathedral organist cartoon would be like...