Lucasorg
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Posts posted by Lucasorg
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May I offer my thanks to all those readers who have sent private messages of support over recent days. It is much appreciated.
Adrian
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Adrian - thank you for your replies, that is the information I wanted and I can now clearly hear some of these faults on the CD. Could the chorus on the Solo create its own weather as the sound on the CD suggests?
Hi John,
When you talk about the Solo and "weather" I guess you're talking about the wind leakages. We had some patching done in 1997 in an attempt to prolong the life of things here and it certainly improved things. The over-riding problem with the Solo in the South Transept was that, while being devastatingly loud under the tower, it barely made an impact in either Quire or Nave. If you used the Trumpet or Bombarde as a solo reed during evensong, the Chapter would here the reeds and nothing else while the quire would not hear the solo at all! The 8-4-2-III chorus would have been useful for leading a congregation had it been in a more central position but, realistically, we tended only to use the 8' diapason as an "off-stage" effect from time to time.
Interesting that you have stopped using the Bradford. It always struck me as rather tinny and unpleasant! What is your opinion of the Rodgers you now have?I've not been a great fan of electronic instruments, I have to admit. When the Bradford was installed in the late 1980s it would have been cutting-edge technology and certainly served a purpose for some 17 or so years. Its biggest problem was always the location of the speakers (Nave clerestory and taking up about half the length of the Nave). The result was that balance between the organ and choir was impossible to set correctly for all listeners. Over the years the loudspeaker cones have tired and the sound was never very beautiful, especially on the diapasons and reeds. I used to describe playing good music on this instrument as holding a beautiful carving but having to wear rubber gloves - you never felt that you really connected with it!
The Rodgers we have bought for the Quire (later for the Nave, once the Tickell instrument is installed) has been a great success. It is flexible, reliable and colourful. It can sound a bit "gloopy" depending upon where you stand, but it has some fantastic stops - my favourite is the Flûte Harmonique on the Great which is pure liquid gold - and the 8 subwoofers can really shake the floor. That said, there are some less successful stops - I am not a fan of the American Flute Celestes and Erzahler Celestes and the organ could do with a really good Clarinet.
Before we took this route, we auditioned this instrument and a similar (slightly smaller) Allen and it was our opinion that the Rogers won hands down. If you were thinking of exploring this route for whatever reason, I would encourage plenty of time with the technical team to tweak the voicing to suite the building as this has proved invaluable for us in getting the sort of sound we wanted.
I would add that, however much we are enjoying this instrument, we still look forward to the new pipe organ in 2008, but that is not to belittle the achievements made in this area. Rodgers have done a superb job and they should be given credit for this. Also, their team here in the UK is made up of some really very experienced players.
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I don't get all this wasting of money, ripping out old organs which still played, taking second hand delivery of electronics for a farewell to some old bishop and a new dean. Can't you sing something unaccompanied or rig up a casio keyboard or something? All this wasted money at that cathedral could have gone on having the old organ put right, or at very least having the old organ pipework installed as part of a new instrument because the basis of it was all good quality material?
Worcester Cathedral, money wasting racket or just "jobs for the boys"?
What an unrealistic world you live in.
Personally, I'd probably have got the Bradford fixed in the mean time. When I [played it way back in 1988 for a service, it didn't give a bad account of itself for a toaster. I'm sure they'd repair it if you asked them.We did - they tried - they failed three times.
Your next suggestion, Maestro?
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I have, on occasions, requested using the sermon slot for teaching new music for the congregation. It seems to work, especially when the hymn (or whatever) is then used later in the same service. For some reasons this scheme always seems popular with choir and congregation members....
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Can you give any indication what is to be done with the pipework?
I'm afraid I am not aware. I would suggest a quick call to Nicholsons if there are requests in this area.
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Thank you for your replys - most informative as ever. I am interested, when you did the recording in 2001 (date is on the back cover of the CD), was the organ considerably better than in the last two years or did you have to "nurse" it through the recording in a similar way to that which you describe during the BBC sessions in your post on the older thread?
At that stage, things were deteriorating and quotes were being sought, but the rapid sequence of failure amongst the softer 8' stops had not reached the fever pitch we experienced through 2004/5. As far as the winding was concerned, the tuttis required careful choice (and reduction in places) in order to avoid problems.
You mention problems with the balance of the chorus's across the instrument - on the first track, Orb and Sceptre, the full principal chorus appears to be very piercing and "screechy" in the upper ranges, quite out of keeping with the mellow tone that is apparent in the mid range. Is this characteristic what you were describing?There were balance problems which are mainly sourced from the dilemma in voicing for both Nave and Quire. Large (no, truly immense) stops of the main great chorus (8, 4, 2) had a bright HH mixture added to try to speak down to the Nave. The secondary diapasons (rather soul-less) were at 16, 8 & 4' pitch only plus a 1978 Larigot. The rest of the Great consisted of a very small scale Stopped Diapason from a chamber organ, a tubby Hohl Flute and 4' Harmonic Flute, and "French"ish reeds at 8 & 4' pitch.
This left the Choir to try to fill in the gaps, but this had only diapasons at 8' pitch plus a mixture- strings (8,8,4 and celeste) and two fairly thin flutes did not add substantially to the solidity of this department, though it was badly needed. The Clarinet was sweet, when all the notes worked.
Finally, on the manuals at least, the Swell large diapason would have graced a large chorus on most Greats, while the small diapason was very woolly and uneven. Narrow scale strings and principal left an insipid sound which was only rounded out by the flutes - an 8' gedackt on high pressure with the H-J reeds and a 4' bland flute (my name!). The Octave Quint 2 2/3 was a useful source of colour, though other colours might have been more appropriate here. The mixture was quite appropriate to the chorus (such as it was) but the sharp mixture allowed choir members to go without formal haircuts for several years at a go. The Oboe and Cornopean were extremely useful, while the 16,8,4 heavy reeds were cumbersome and slow to speak and tended to separate from the chorus rather like curdling milk.
Also, is the old Bradford computing organ still in use? I remember talking with you very briefly some years ago after a choir festival and you were not particularly complimentary about it then (with good reason)!We have just (since Christmas) stopped using the Bradford which has also become increasingly unreliable - apart from some youth vandalism, the organ had a tendency to play only alternate notes on either Swell or Choir (or sometimes both). Since we have the need to hold major services in the Nave over the coming months (Dean's installation, Bishop's farewell etc etc) we are shortly to take delivery of a second electronic organ to see us through until the Tickell instrument is completed in the Summer of 2008. We shall be using a completely different layout for the speakers in order to avoid the problems of the previous installation.
Hope that's helpful!
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Sorry but that doesn't look all that innovative to me. It looks flimsy enough to be a dunk tank where the contents are likely to empty on to the unfortunate player below any minute soon.
Surely, this comes from the house of David Blaine...
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I can only state that I found the instrument to be in extremely good working order. I was not troubled by wind leaks, every stop (except the Swell Gedeckt, which had been disconnected) worked perfectly well, the instrument was in good tune. The action I found to be quite responsive and with no appreciable delay. The console was as comfortable as those of Exeter and Coventry cathedrals.
I had to play several accompaniments (for example, RVW's Let all the world) which required, at various points, substantial volume and a quick response from the organ - it acquitted itself with honours. I played several voluntaries - mostly French symphonic music. All the combinations and timbres which I desired were there, the organ filled the building with a most glorious sound and I found it both exciting and comparatively easy to play.
I also found that there was a wealth of colour available, particularly for accompanying psalms and for pre- (and post-) service improvisations.
Sean,
The organ was certainly at its best when playing loudly on a Summer's day. On a winter's day when the humidity is at its lowest, you might have witnessed a very different experience. It was on one of these occasions that the organ let us down in a spectacularly impressive display of bad behaviour.
In fairness to your stated experience, I would imagine that our team of staff who play the organ for around 40 weeks of the year would be more likely to notice the missing notes in various parts of the organ, especially as we tend to stretch the instruments capabilities, using separate multi-manual configurations, often using single stops where such faults become very obvious. Add to this the whole plethora of intermittent faults from swell machines, stop motors, piston memory losses, quite apart from the winding issue (particularly on the Great and Solo) when playing loud voluntaries. There were also the electrical faults latterly whereby drawing one stop on Great or Choir would bring on 2 or 3 other stops which would not work on their own. Then there were the leaking trunks under the Swell which would sing on cold days on any note which would clash with the responses...
Then we move on to the experience of listening to the organ from the choir and conductor's point of view. Those Swell sounds which were so delicate to the ear of the player become harsh and, potentially, extremely loud out at the front, thereby limiting their use, particularly when you are playing for a weekday Cathedral Choir of 3 men and a maximum of 9 boys on each side.
I could go on... but I would much rather look forward.
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However, this is not exactly unique to Worcester. My own church instrument (yes, it is smaller and more easily accessible than the old Worcester organ) will, in the next few years, need all the motors of each department re-leathered. Three or four firms have been invited to tender for this work, together with some tonal additions and a complete restoration. Nicholsons and Tickell were amongst those firms who submitted a quote. To renew the leatherwork and substantial remedial work on concussion units and for installing one or two new resrevoirs, the cost was a few thousands - not a substantial amount these days.
Of course I realise that to carry-out this type of work on the Worcester instrument would have been more expensive and I accept that the wind system needed major restoration; notwithstanding, this would not have been impossible to carry out and I doubt that this aspect of a full restoration would have cost more than £20,000 - £25,000 - even if H&H were commissioned to undertake the work.
We had a quote for releathering the Swell underaction which, because of the layout of the instrument, required dismantling of most of the entire North case. A snip under £200k if I recall... Can you now see why our course of action became an attractive alternative?
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Well there weren't any shortcomings according to at least one informed Organist on here who played it relatively recently as he told me, stating that it did everything he wanted it to, and was excellent with the choir
Richard,
I think you do a grave dis-service to those of us organists who do our very best to cover the short-comings of faulty instruments.
Are you seriously suggesting that we are lying about the faults on the organ?
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In terms of the content of this CD, could anyone point out to me the manifestations of the shortcomings that have been discussed with respect to this organ that are audible on the CD?
I am at a loss to fully appreciate the criticisms as the organ sounds quite pleasant to my ears.
John, that CD was recorded nearly 10 years ago (I can't exactly recall which year) at a point when it was still viable to spend on regular small repairs. The organ builders reached a point at which for every note whose leather motor was repaired, another two or three needed further work afterwards, such was the fragility of the 80 year old leather.
For other details, may I refer you to my posting on the original debate.
Adrian Lucas
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May I ask, why the old Worcester organ had a brick swell-box?
I believe it was one of Hope-Jones brilliant ideas for the ultimate "closed box" effect. He also had other ideas including an organ built in concrete chambers underground with the sound conveyed up through tubes....see this website which includes a picture!
The process of demolition at Worcester caused so much dust that we had to evacuate, taking evensong into the Chapter House for a week. A team of pneumatic drills fought with brick and steel girders which penetrated the roof vaults. Eventually, it came down with the added help of an A-10 tankbuster and laser-guided bombs... Still, the extraordinary thing is that the floor (Victorian tiling etc) on both sides was almost entirely undamaged and the newly-revealed rear of the misericords shows us the original colour of the woodwork. Lovely!
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Will there be 2 consoles with one operating both instruments?
There will be a fixed Quire console which will play Quire and Transept.
Until the Nave spec if fixed, other arrangements are fluid, but we expect a movable console which will operate Nave and Transept. It is possible that this will also be able to work all three sections (in a basic way) for major services when the complete Cathedral is full.
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Happily in France organs are protected by commissions. Otherwise all those which are not to the taste of certain persons (Notre-Dame of Paris, Saint-Sulpice, Saint-Ouen of Rouen, Saint-Sernin of Toulouse, etc) would leave to the garbage can. To destroy his heritage it is to kill History.
If that had been the case in England, Worcester might not have got into some of this mess... Personally, I would love to have heard the 1874 Hill in the Transept for which the Elgar Sonata was written. Whilst its position was not brilliant, I reckon it must have been an amazing instrument...
That said, the change in worshipping habits through the end of the 19th century would still have demanded better support for Nave congregations. This we aim to put right when the Nave organ is built.
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In the briefest possible terms:
Worcester Cathedral has submitted its plans in very great detail to the Cathedrals' Fabric Commission for England (CFCE) and the scheme has been agreed with them. Their membership includes organ advisers of national standing and the Cathedral has had to put its case in a number of documents, the longest of which exceeded 90 pages.
The CFCE has agreed to the plans for the Quire and Transept sections of the overall plan. It has agreed with the concept of the Nave organ and its proposed location, but we are still negotiating the case design and, because this latter is so critical to the final specification of the instrument, its ultimate content.
While these negotiations are taking place, neither I nor the Cathedral is prepared to discuss the matter. I can assure you, however, that I will be the first to share these details with members of this discussion group once the scheme of the Nave instrument is settled.
I am sure that members of the group will understand that, whilst there is much strong feeling about the merits and shortcomings of the old instrument in our cathedral, it is most important that we as a Cathedral, including Chapter, music staff and our worshipping congregations, take time to get these details sorted in an orderly way which will be to the best possible musical outcome for the future.
I shall not contribute again to this thread and hope that you will all have the good grace to accept our position. I am more than happy to continue to post information and progress for the Quire organ in the meantime and hope that it will be of interest to members.
In the meantime, if you wish to contribute to the fundraising for our new instruments, please telephone the Cathedral (01905 28854) and ask to speak to the Appeal Office who will be delighted to accept your financial contributions.
Adrian Lucas
Master of the Choristers and Organist.
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As I've said before, I DO HOPE THEY WILL DONATE THE WORCESTER DIAPHONES TO THE HOPE-JONES MUSEUM IN MANCHESTER.
I don't expect they will.
MM
How cynical is that? I would certainly rather they found a good home! I suspect the biggest problem is likely to be transporting them.
However, I should stress that the final decision will rest not with me, but with the Chapter whose vision and support have led to our projected new organs in the first place.
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Why not re-using them, as with the viole d'orchestre. If ever any stop was Hope-Joneses ...
From what I have heard of the Diaphones, getting anything from a "normal" organ to blend with them would be pretty much impossible.
I recall a fascinating conversation with Christopher Robinson a few years back about the old Tuba Profunda from the Hope-Jones pedal department which survived until the early 1970s. I believe this was double tongued and of immense proportions...enough to be heard from the other end of Gloucestershire, I should imagine.
Does anyone on this board have any personal recollections of this stop?
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Or maybe a 'Mander chat line' day at Worcester when it is up and working.
This sounded slightly seedy until I realized what you meant....!!!
I don't see why not. Mind you, we would probably need one when the Tickell instrument is completed, one more when the Transept is done and another when the Nave instrument draws to a close... an organ-fest in the making??
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MEANWHILE......BACK IN WORCESTER.....!!!!!!
Is this a record....Three Cathedral Organists on one thread on one day??? Perhaps we should think about a Three Choirs Festival!
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I would be interested to learn whether removing the old organ cases has had an effect on the sound of the choir. Am I correct in remembering that they formed a back-reflector (or at least provided a focus) for the sound, since they were sited behind the choir stalls?[/font]
I was expecting a poorer acoustic with the cases removed, but it has actually improved...quite significantly, in fact. Bearing in mind that, at present, we are living with a scaffolding bridge over our heads so this may improve further once that has gone, the reflective effect of the case fronts was obviously minimal and we now enjoy the reverberation of the side-aisles and chapels. I'm told that, from the Nave, the choir on weekday evensongs now sounds twice as loud as previously.
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Back to Worcester, so what did happen to console - AL says it is gone, so I guess we assume it is chopped up? They should have auctioned off the drawstops one at a time on eBay - that would have give a good start to fund raising for the transept organ!The console was comfortable, though over the years it had become rather internally mauled through the work of different builders at various rebuilds. My memory is that it is far from unique among H+H consoles....
The policy of organ builders is to try to recycle ivory stopheads wherever possible as the use and supply of this material is extremely heavily regulated. We have kept a number of the most interesting here... 32's, Viole d'Orchestre......and, of course, the Swell Tremulant which never worked at all in the 10+ years since I came here
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I would personally be very interested in pictures of the diaphone 32', as well as other 32 ft stops.
The Hill 32' flues will be restored (unaltered) in the Transept Organ which will be playable from both the Quire and Nave organs. Our plans are for the Transept case to be moved to the North Transept where it was originally designed to go, standing forward of the rear wall and containing 2 manuals and pedal. Its purpose is to accompany music in worship in the Tower/Eastern Nave area.
There is fascinating history attached to the current position of this sizeable case....the 1874 Hill organ for which it was built was funded by the Earl of Dudley who did not like the donor of the South Transept window....thus the organ case was made to obscure as much of it as possible...
Thus it has never been seen to best advantage since the sun always illuminates it from behind. Once it is restored and moved we shall be able to see it in its full glory.The Transept case currently contains the 13 (I think) lowest pipes of the Hope-Jones diaphone 32' stop. They do not speak, but were simply too large to remove when the rest of the rank was removed. It is our hope to retain one of these for its historical value, possibly to find some scheme of winding it up for demonstration purposes....though quite where all that wind will come from....???
The Transept Organ is set to take place once the Quire organ is completed (funds permitting...any contributions gratefully received!!!).
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Can I also ask what has happened to the old console?I'm afraid the old console is no more.
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Some magnificent carving there. Good that it's being reused. The obvious question is to ask if the new cases will be of much the same dark colour? It matched the rest of the woodwork. Or is the old carving to be stripped to a lighter colour? Are the new facade pipes going to be of silver or gold colour?
Actually the wood in the Quire has a very wide palette of colours. We took samples when commissioning our new chamber organ in order to try to make a match. While there is much which is very dark and covered in Victorian stain, there is also much which is really very light.
Mr. Lucas, can you also please tell me what WPG the HJ stop was on?I believe the Choir was just on 3 inch pressure...I don't have the details of any changes which WW would have made in the 1970s.
Is it true the swell box was in brick? or was that just the original one?The box was enormously strong and took a whole week to demolish. There was some suggestion that it had been made by the same team who built bunkers along the North French coast in the war...
Were there any Hill stops left that had not been hacked about with? I would imagine most stops to have been revoiced with knitting needles up the feet to open them up, and cut ups increased?It would be good to know exactly what had been done to the old organ pipework.
All the pipework has gone to Nicholson's in Malvern.
Where will the new console be?The new console will be on the South side in a new loft, positioned so that the player is facing East.
That's all for now, folks....I must go and do a balance test for BBC Choral Evensong this afternoon!
Best wishes,
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I've added a few more photographs here
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That's brilliant of you to post the pics. Nice also to at least see the cathedral less cluttered by cases......
Onwards and forwards now, no point in bitterness. I was very interested in the HJ stop construction.
Thanks, John and Richard....I will do my best to keep the information rolling!
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Worcester Cathedral
in The Organ
Posted
Actually, it is not umcompromisingly American - but it does have a number of American features.