OmegaConsort
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Posts posted by OmegaConsort
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"I would like to see more jobs like Nicholson's Screen Organ at Southwell, where a good bit of the choruses are (in that wonderful expression) 'pre-owned'. They are (most definitely) none the worse for that and must represent a saving, kind both to our heritage and to the cathedral finances."
Maybe, (having just read, and responded to a new thread about the Nicholson nave organ for Worcester), that use could be made elsewhere of the old Worcester organ that Nicholson's have in their workshops?? How about a transplant to Llandaff (the Hope Jones connection would be an interesting story in itself)???
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"...I can assure you, however, that I will be the first to share these details with members of this discussion group.........."
That is greatly appreciated by me and I am sure everyone else who has not only learned a great deal from the recent thread you started, photos and all, but also from the brief and appropriate answers regarding this thread. Thanks for the time you have given so far!
Richard Harrison
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Very briefly as I am just about to leave my computer, two organs - big Willis on the West End gallery with an attached 4 manual console. At tuther end of the building a smaller organ in what looks like two wardrobes on the North and South side of the Apse (I think it is by Lewis). Next to that, an even bigger 4 manual (WIllis?) console which can control both the West end instrument and the smaller east end instrument.
I will leave it up to others to add stuff such as action / layout etc..... I can see why you might be confused if you dont know the place and you have looked it up on NPOR!
Finally, if you stand half way up the nave when the West End organ is playing - it is the most wonderful sound....but then again, I love Willis organs!
Best wishes
Richard
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However, I am less grateful for the experience of being given a lift around Caen at night by Alain Bouvet (the other titulaire). Apart from bumper-pushing some really quite nice shiny cars, in order to get out of a parking space, he only stopped once at a red light or a junction. Even then, this was only because, at the last second, he noticed the police car which was about to bisect our path. I cannot say that I enjoyed suddenly having my face pressed up against the windscreen whilst simultaneously being hit from behind by a box of tissues, a large, hard-back copy of a Victor Hugo novel (Le Dernier jour d'un condamné) and a bag of courgettes, as Alain stood on the brake pedal and created a skid-mark (on the road) about twelve feet long, which stank of burnt rubber.[/font]
that has cheered me up no end - in fact I fell of my chair. Every wednesday I do some consultancy work for a health and safety company.........it is worse than watching paint dry, so thanks again!! 
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How interesting. I've never noticed that, but perhaps it's a bit like telling jokes ... it's the way you tell 'em. Andrew Parnell and Simon Johnson certainly make the accompaniments sound colourful and singing.
Its just opinion Andrew! Sure, messrs Parnell and Johnson are top-notch; I had Neil Taylor playing for me (who knows the organ from his Scholar days there under Colin Walsh) and it still sounded thin, nasal and like a wasp in a jam jar....
I love this board....here we are on a worcester posting talking about St Albans, Winchester, 32 reeds for Truro, Salisbury, coat hanger stop knobs.....it's wonderful!
Glad to read that parts of the console have been kept - I started a thread ages ago about the whereabouts of old consoles and got excellent reports about many such as Tewkesbury, Malmesbury Abbey, and so on.. Perhaps Worcester should mount the old knobs in a display case with the reasons why they were kept included - that would be very interesting for the passing tourist!
Best wishes
Richard
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Whoops - I didn't mean to knock us all off-topic with my throw-away comments concerning Truro, Salisbury and Ripon (funny how nobody has mentioned that one in follow-ups). I only meant that from my perspective as conductor, I was left with no strong memories about ensemble, individual beauty of voices, thrill etc during the services (the organ that is, not the choir!). Having conducted all over the place, I often get something out of the organ and mentioned the above three simply because they all sound so wonderful in their roles as accompanying instruments. So to, for the record does Tewkesbury Abbey where we were this summer! Going to Gloucester next Summer(!) and have just done a Saturday evensong at St Albans, so there are two in a row that (I say carefully), do not sound good in their primary role (and there is another thread!).
Back to Worcester, so what did happen to console - AL says it is gone, so I guess we assume it is chopped up? They should have auctioned off the drawstops one at a time on eBay - that would have give a good start to fund raising for the transept organ! The ideas for the transept organ sound good, so do does the concept of keeping one diaphone winded up for demo usage.
Richard
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Thanks for the photos - fascinating! Can I also ask what has happened to the old console? It was very comfortable! I took my choir to Worcester for 4 days around 3 years ago and we had a wonderful time - it was my first and only experience of the old organ and whilst it didn't leave me with any overwhelming impressions (like Salisbury, Ripon, Truro etc), it did a good job in terms of evensong accomp.).
An earlier post mentioned photos of the 32's - those are in the transept case aren't they?
Best wishes
Richard
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Just curious as to what other members of this board get annoyed about in the world of organ playing / choral music etc :
I'll kick off with
The lords my shepard i'll not want
he makes me down to lie *huge breath*
in pastures green he leadeth me etc
and
Vicars that have a need to interupt preludes with pointless announcments
Over to you guys.
Much the same as you really, but also clergy / service leaders who announce hymns when there is a pew leaflet and hymn boards - just not needed and it interrupts the flow of the service. Even more annoying is the vicar who doesnt know when to stop announcing the hymn; adding a bit more intro after you have started playing it over!
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Apologies straight away if anyone has already mentioned this (a quick glance down the postings would suggest not) but I have only just got round to reading my copy of Church Times from December 22nd and noticed the following in the "Your Questions / Your Answers" section on page 12, and I quote in full:
"If the church organist posts a critical and offensive comment about the family service and the vicar on a blog for organists, what action should a PCC member take in support of the Vicar?!
I just thought it might be worth bringing this to the attention of everyone?
Best wishes
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You would have to contact Paul yourself, I'm afraid. He's very approachable (but also very busy).
Southwell Minster is stuffed with organs, you could see several if you timed it right. His postal address is 4 Vicars' Court, Southwell, NG25 0HP
There are the big two in the Minster proper:
Three-manual in the nave (by Binns rebuilt by Wood of Huddersfield) and four-manual Nicholson on the Quire screen (incorporating older Nicholson pipes).
Then there is a one-manual Grant Degens and Bradbeer in the Minster and a two-manual Grant Degens and Bradbeer on electric action (largely on extension lines) in the Song School.
It must be a year since I was last over there, so Paul may well have collected a further organ since then.
Thanks for that. I know the old and new(er) Southwell organs - but didn't know anything about Paul's house organ - maybe I will give him a ring sometime!
Incidentally, I took my choir there for a week just after the Nicholson was finished. The pedal digital reeds had not been finally voiced and they were so loud - I seem to remember the boys looking quite awe-struck at the end of the gloria at eucharist!
Best wishes,
Richard
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This is the very same console which now occupies pride of place in Paul Hale's office in Southwell.
He has built an extension organ which it controls.
How fascinating! Is there any info on this anywhere?
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I pride myself on a good memory, but it has failed me in 2 specific cases.
I recall playing a 3-man organ in the 1960's in an Anglican church in Bedford, with a detached console at the East and pipework in a West gallery. I can't find anything on NPOR that matches this........
I also recall looking into St Mary's, banbury, in the early '70's and could swear the organ was in the west gallery; NPOR does not support this........
Any ideas anyone......?
Can't help you with Banbury, but the Bedford Church might be a methodist church called something like Pilgrim meeting house?? On NPOR it says East End loft, but I did a lecture for the RSCM there around 7 or 8 years ago and feel convinced the pipes are at the west end - no doubt someone else will put us out of our misery! What about St Paul's Bedford? Console on South side in a gallery (just like a cathedral!) and organ opposite on the North side. Something like 75 speaking stops with little borrowing, yet in the nave it sounds like 7 stops! Dreadful organ...
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Completely agree 100% - it is just like writing a letter of complaint, and always sleeping on it before re-writing and mailing the following day. Very good advice indeed. I marginally regret comments I made about a previous vicar I worked with here on the Mander board.........mind you, I only regret it a little bit!!!!!
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I enjoyed reading the Bristol Cathedral vs. St Mary Redcliffe posting - I've played both (not recently) and liked them both. I agree in part with arguments for and against comparing organs particularly when they come from such different sources and periods and are played in completely different acoustics....
How about these for comparison using the same criteria (i.e no criteria at all!):
Beverley Minster vs St Johns Beverley
St Peter's Bournmouth vs St Stephen's Bournmouth
Norwich Cathedral vs Norwich RC Cathedral (only joking)
St Philips Birmingham vs St Chads Birmingham
Liverpool RC vs Liverpool Anglican
It's all a bit tongue in cheek really from me, but perhaps if comparing, we might look at organs by the same builders, or perhaps organs built / rebuilt in the same year??
Lastly, and as a slight digression, my top 3 Willis Cathedral organs in order:
1. Salisbury (by a margin)
2. Truro
3. Lincoln
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What a wonderful description. I don't know the St. Albans instrument so I can't comment on the accuracy of your judgement, but it would seem, to me, to be a highly evocative description of the abomination in my own local cathedral (Gloucester).
Small world! I am bringing my choir to Gloucester next Summer - so perhaps from one abomination to another! I don't think the addition of a 32' at St Albans will make much difference. To elaborate somewhat, perhaps I was too harsh with the wasp-in-the-jam-jar expression! What I meant by that was that the sound of the instrument from the nave is fuzzy, unfocussed and well underpowered given the size of the building. In the choir - it is not so bad. However, nothing on the instument stands out as memorable in terms of an accompanying instrument and as a solo instrument I find it deeply uninspiring. Part of the problem I think is how the pipework is disposed over the cases - from what I have heard / read, it is shoe-horned in - a shame really as the screen is huge! A big improvement would be made if the whole thing was re-cased something akin to Norwich or Gloucester, but that will never happen!
Enough rambling - more posts to write!
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I didn’t watch it. As soon as I saw the program synopsis I decided to watch something else instead. Hurray for the Simpson’s.
Getting back to the original email - how about this for a candidate for the worst opener of all (this was Ash Wednesday); choir process in, nice gentle organ music, moment of silence, then the Vicar says "Hi Folks, welcome to Lent".....
I have since resigned from that church!
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Surely the Willis organs at Hereford, Salisbury and Lincoln should be included - they may well have been rebuilt a number of times, but tonal changes are almost non-existant (if memory serves me correctly Salisbury had a little upper work added to the pedal and that was about it - Alcock in the 30s, Dearnley in the 60s and Seal in the 90s would not have let anyone make any changes).
I would say the Willis organ at Canterbury would be a good example of exclusion under Jeremy's terms.
For me, the Salisbury WIllis would be the one - I grew up with it - things like that get in the way when trying to make a decision! Notable organs I DONT like (and I know I am digressing - sorry) would be St Albans - a wasp in a jam jar as far as I am concerned, and unfortunately my local cathedral now, Wells - muddy and dull, and dare I say Christchurch Oxford - Sumsion in G on that sounds simply weird!
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David's question is not an easy one to answer. If we are to take the question at face value, then instruments that have been rebuilt, restored etc are ineligible. The criteria must also be that it is an instrument one has either heard or played live. When you think about it, this narrows down the field considerably.
For example, the Father Willis organs at Truro and St Dominic's Priory, Belisze Park, London could be included as they are essentially as heard in their original state. The same could not apply to Salisbury, Hereford or Lincoln which have all had tonal alterations. The Harrison at St Mary Redcliffe would also be ruled out as the Swell Organ was destroyed in the Second World War and a new one installed in 1947, together with a second 32ft reed.
So where do we go from here? The Frobenius at Queens' College, Oxford is often talked about as being a superlative instrument, but then I've never heard it.
Oh dear, I've tied myself in knots here.
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Ah yes. Sorry. I didn't track back properly on the NPOR entries.
I was there a couple of months ago - not to play, but as part of a recording session. There will be a couple of CDs coming out soon with Clare College choir singing Ouseley and someone else (can't now remember!). The organ was playable but not in brilliant condition and I completely agree with a previous post - the place does feel unloved. It is now simply the village church since the college closed and it is a huge place for a handful of parishoners to upkeep. Terrible shame really.
A friend of mine was singing on the recent broadcast and enjoyed the organ and the acoustic.
Lastly, should the place ever be made redundant - what a perfect location for an organ museum!
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I agree that it can be nice to see an old console. For many years one could get up close to the Willis (and pre Willis) console of The Milton at Tewkesbury Abbey. The Snetzler console at Rotherham Parish Church is still visible and quite fascinating, in its proper position en fenetre, but some pratt has defaced the front of that organ in a most insensitive manner! [indeed, this might even have been done at the instigation of the late George Pace - he messed up quite a bit of that church in his capacity as diocesan architect.]
There was certainly talk about saving and eventually exhibiting the recently superceded Walker five-manual console at Doncaster Minster (St.George's). So far I think this plan has got as far as a pile of parts being stored in a back-stage area.
Of course, attractive redundant consoles are getting reused all the time. I know too many to list here. However, I cannot resist the opportunity to boast about the one I have, viz. the five-manual Walker stop-key console from Tewkesbury Abbey. Old consoles in good condition are respected in the trade, not least for their ivory which continues to be regarded as the premier key-covering - even if second-hand.
We were asked about maker's plates. There must be a fair number of serious collectors, I know several; I think once an organ is no more, it is fair game for some serious enthusiast to keep the plate, particularly if they helped ensure that a redundant instrument did not end up in a skip. I have a friend who particularly collects those little tuners plaques! However, I very much object to organ builders removing prior builders' plates when they rebuild an organ and this happens much more often than it should*.
*Mind you, as with many things at a rebuild, often it is not the organ builders that are at fault but the customer.
What are you doing with the 5 manual Tewkesbury console if I may ask! I played that once - quite by chance I was wandering around the abbey and Michael Peterson was playing - he was a real gent and let me have a go.
I also remember the old FHW console on the Milton.
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What a bizzare way of doing things. If the faculty is not granted on the basis of the PA system, no organ either and converse applies too. And the consideration for PA systems and organs are completely different, with only a few overarching principles in common.
I wonder why they did it that way?
Of course, if I were to buy a new organ for a church - probably the most expensive and largest bit of kit in the church, I'd of course find something fairly small and ephemeral to pass it through on - like a PA system - so the DAC Organ advisor misses it...
So.......back to old consoles(!).....Two more come to mind - Barnstaple Church in Devon was rebuilt not long ago with a detached console replacing an old Vowles of Bristol console - lovely old woodwork - two hands to draw a single stop. I think I remember reading that the old console has been retained behind part of the new casework - what a lovely idea!
The second is Christchurch Priory. When the old Willis Compton was mothballed and a Makin 4 manual installed in the late 70's / early 80's, the large 3 manual console completely disappeared. I wonder what happened to that??
Not wishing to digress, but what about builders' name plates that appear on consoles, and then vanish when the instrument is rebuilt? I won a HN&B nameplate on eBay recently - no idea where it came from, but it is brass and says "built 1947" on it.
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Somtimes at least they are recycled. Last weekend I played an organ that had been rebuilt in 200 and expanded from a two- to a three-manual. I was told that the "new" console had originally belonged to an instrument used at Westminster Abbey while the main organ was being rebuilt (this was around the early '50s). It must have been a Harrison & Harrison job because it subsequently fulfilled a similar function at St Albans, after which it went to the Isle of Wight where it was used for a three-manual H&H in a chap's farmhouse at Colwell Bay, Freshwater (and an interesting organ it was too - I knew it quite well - http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch...ec_index=A00922). It had certainly undergone a certain amount of alteration since I last saw it at Freshwater. In particular, the in-built ash tray has gone!
Excellent! Particularly the ashtray bit! I wonder what will happen to the current temporary console at the Abbey??
Does anyone know what happened to the old St Paul's console - the one buried in the North case - a particularly fine piece of woodwork that was!
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Hope this topic is in the correct place - I am new to this....Over the years I have often wondered what happens to the old console when an organ is rebuilt - I know of some instances where the console has been preserved such as Marlborough Abbey in Wilts - I think the old console is stored in a room above the porch?
I assume they were broken up in the old days, but perhaps now, with more consideration of the past they are either kept somewhere on site or the builder keeps them (mind you, I notice lots of old drawstops for sale on eBay from time to time!). I was in Blackburn last week looking at the new 4-manual console and wondering what happened to the old one!
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There used to be a couple of very good shops - Circle Records and Rushworths Music Shop - both now sadly gone (like many other cities in England which used to have decent shops). I imagine there is the usual Virgin / HMV type of shop, but you might have more luck if the Cathedral has its own shop - it would be likely to have a reasonable range of organ music.
that has cheered me up no end - in fact I fell of my chair. Every wednesday I do some consultancy work for a health and safety company.........it is worse than watching paint dry, so thanks again!! 
Worcester Cathedral
in The Organ
Posted
"In terms of the content of this CD, could anyone point out to me the manifestations of the shortcomings that have been discussed with respect to this organ that are audible on the CD?"
Hello John and welcome to the board! A very short answer, and that is never judge an organ by a recording - all manner of tinkering can take place before, during and afterwards (not suggesting that this is the case with the recording in question). I am not specifically talking about editing the performances, but more "improving" the sound and the like.
I cannot really go into the whys and wherefores of the decisions that have been made regarding the old organ - if you have a hunt around the 3 diffrent sections of discussions on the Mander board you will see at least two or three threads on Worcester, and just about all that could be said from both sides has been said! Mr Lucas has spared a lot of his time explaining things and even posting photos of the current situation. Have a good read and all that info might answer your questions, at least in part.
Good luck
Richard