MusingMuso

[quote name=Brian Childs' date='Sep 15 2005, 11:38 Of one thing I am sure....ALL organ-builders need to read about acoustic-engineering and the characteristics of modern building materials, which have a nunmber of very specific characteristics. I am sure this is right, and I am sure most do, but clearly there is some empirical evidence to suggest that there are either some exceptions or that the lessons have not been properly understood MM <{POST_SNAPBACK}> <{POST_SNAPBACK}> ================== Well maybe some have Brian, but it is this critical area of mid-range frequency absorption which seems to cause the problem; especially when long-wave sound travels easily, and hard reflective surfaces "project" the higher frequencies like so much shrapnel. I can see that this sort of acoustic totally alters the balances of normal pipe-scale progressions and voicing, and the results (even by extremely respected organ-builders) seem to fall short of the ideal, when it possibly isn't their fault if they have to build an organ before a hall is completely kitted out and furnished. Another thing which I failed to mention. When people file into a hall, the absorption increases enormously, and in combination with soft-frunishings, the normal floor to ceiling resonances are almost killed stone-dead, and any remaining resonance comes from a combination of direct stage-area sound and reflected sound from hard surfaces situated above the stage area and from side-walls. This is EXACTLY the situation at the Festival Hall, and if you care to sit to the right of the auditorium, you hear two organs.....the big one at the front, and the smaller, squeekier one to your right! What you DON'T hear is a fusion of agreeable ambient sound coming from everywhere, as in a cathedral or church. In other words, it's the classic cinema type of acoustic essentially, but with a little more deliberate resonance built in to the final result. So maybe an organ-builder should aim for Schnitger, but keep Wurlitzer firmly in the back of his mind as he does so!! He needs to compensate for what the building is taking away. MM

=================== Don't forget the little Cavaille-Coll gem at St.Gabriel's, Blackburn! MM

====================== I kid you not, but I once played an awful organ by Driver & Haigh which had a chamber mounted blower close to the chancel ceiling. When it was switched on, it sounded for all the world like a loo being flushed, but much louder. Of course, a flick of the switch on the word "Holy" got the timing just right, so it went:- "In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy WHOOSH" It seemed always to be the perfect reflection on the utter rubbish the vicar preached each Sunday, and I was young. However, for all those who are undisputed anoraks, like those who record train noises, THIS is the one to hear:- http://www.acchos.org/html/gallery.html Go to gallery and scroll down to the blower sounds....all 600HP of them, stirring into life at the Atlantic City Auditorium, New Jersey, USA. MM PS: I have Amtrak Diesel Loco and Staton Island ferry noises on tape.

Remove the Marcussen to Sheffield Cathedral, thus solving their need for a new instrument, and replace it with the Christie from the Odeon, Marble Arch (which is still languishing in store somewhere). Being a Christie there should be family compatibility with HNB pipework from the same era of which there must be some knocking around somewhere from redundant churches which could be used to augment the specification. Now that would be thinking outside the box! ================= Ah Brian! Your thoughts have been comfortably preceded by the Lancaster Theatre Organ Trust (LTOT), who "just happen to have" a large Wurlitzer in need of a good home, formerly installed at the Granada Studios, Manchester. Of course, anyone with any sense, would have re-sited the Cavaille-Coll in the Town Hall in the Bridgewater Hall, and restored it to its' former glory; not least by getting rid of the Jardine pipework. So where does that leave us? Let's see....Town Hall to Bridgewater Hall, Bridgewater Hall to Sheffield, Wurlitzer to Town Hall....leaving...crumbs a spare Willis/Mander for free! MM

==================== That's the one! MM

[ Don't sideline the organ. Bring it into the mainstream. =============== Absolutely spot-on Anthony! I seldom read a posting with which I utterly agree, but this was one of them. This is what fascinates me about Czech music, because those who compose for organ ARE mainstream or at least multi-genre, and that must be a good thing. MM

================= Sorry! Ignition key and a totally silent Laukhauf on which you could rest a cup of tea without spilling it. MM

==================== They make coffins? MM

With so many replies, I'll refrain from addressing any particular one or we could be here all year. Firstly, the "contrapuntal nature of the instrument" is as valid a statement for a good romantic organ as it is for a baroque instrument. Many romantic composers wrote fine fugues.....Guilmant, Liszt, Reger, Elgar, Dupre, Walton and all the rest. So counterpoint never went out of fashion, and the very best romantic organs were still quite capable of delivering a fair degree of the contrapuntal clarity required, and orchestras always could. The suggestion that the Elgar Sonata could not be performed convincingly at Bridgewater Hall is very true. However, permit me to make what may sound like an outrageous statement. 'The Elgar Sonata could be played on the organ of the Bavokerk, Haarlem, albeit with a few compromises.' On that particular instrument I've heard Bridge, Stamford and S S Wesley for example, but never Parry, Bairstow or Howells, whilst it is a perfect vehicle for the music of Reger despite paper evidence to the contrary. I don't think I need to hesitate on our organ-building host's discussion board, when I state that Marcussen are one of the most respected organ-builders in the world, with quite a pedigree. So why should an essentially baroque organ work for romantic repertoire, yet a modern concert-hall organ built by a builder who created one of the finest sounds in the world, be seen to fall short of complete satisfaction? Let's blame someone! Is it the consultant, the organ-builder or the voicer(s)? It's surely got to be one of them? WRONG!! The problem starts right at the beginning, when much of the instrument was but a pile of wood in the builder's yard, and the plans for the hall were on the drawing-board of the architect. A modern concert-hall is a designer concept from the start....actually quite an unnatural one. The modern materials used have very different acoustic properties to anything used before about 1950. As time has gone on, newer materials have come onto the market, with special fire-retardent properties, special acoustic absorbency characteristics, special thermal properties, special load-bearing properties....and so on. Long gone are the days of wood, glass and stone, in spite of appearances and acres of veneer. I spent quite some time investigating the acoustic-engineering of modern concert-halls, which almost universally, are geared towards a combination of spoken clarity and musical "bloom." The two are almost incompatible in large buildings, as a large, resonant cathedral demonstrates conclusively. To achieve the all-purpose concert hall, it is ncessary to direct and focus sound in particular ways, and to use acoustically absorbent and non-absorbent materials in combination. By and large, these designs are adequate, but only once in a while is something like the Symphony Hall, Birmingham achieved. Nevertheless, even the Birmingham hall has to rely on "resonance chambers" distributed around the walls of the building. It is a feature of many modern materials, that they reflect high frequencies successfully and often do not kill low frequencies, but they often kill mid-frequencies in a way that is completely alien to "natural" materials. So the Bridgewater Hall instrument, whilst sounding magnificent close-up, actually starts to sound distant and lacking in body only a few metres away. However, there IS a type of organ designed for this type of acoustic, and which sounds exactly right. It's called a Wurlitzer Theatre Organ!! Hey ho! Back to the Diaphones! Discuss! MM PS: Will this thread never end....can we make a thousand posts?

I think this goes some of the way to explaining the contrast between the spiritual journey of JSB and the apparent lack of one by the Howells generation. ================= Well I think much (but by no means all) of the evidence points to the fact that British composers looked backwards rather than outwards....Vaughan-Williams, Ireland and perhaps even the brilliant Walton for example. Even someone as inventive as Percy Whitlock was greatly influenced by Delius, as were many of the Brit composers....there's nothing wrong with that. The unfortunate thing is that they perpetuated a sort of rambling aproach to harmony, born of extreme chromaticism, at a time when other countries were much bolder. That said, some very good things were written, and Healey-Willan is one who springs to mind, whlst the inimitable Holst and the genius of Walton performed miracles. On the plus side, we at least managed to avoid the worst aspects of 12-tone and experimental music, so wonderfully lampooned by Gerard Hoffnung:- "No longer does ze self-respecting German composer use ze pen and paper and ze fork-in-tune. Instead he uses ze mazematical slippy-rule etc." My objection to the pervading English organ style, is that it completely re-invents the organ by turning its' back on the essentially contrapuntal nature of the instrument. Thank heavens for the music of Hindemith and Dupre. Anyway, I jyst realised that Howells came from Gloucester rather than Worcester, so we have to think of a new title for the H.O.W.E.L.L.S support group. I recommend it should now stand for "Howell's organ works - enabling latent loathing support." MM

I do not think the last sentence is quite right. Howell's generation (b 1892) did travel quite a lot,even if he did not . The places they went include Picardy and Champagne in Northern France, Gallipoli, Mesopotamia, and Palestine. The problem may be that a significant number of them did not return ! And those who did come back were not unchanged by the experiences of their travels! But I do find myself somewhat in sympathy with MM's views on Howell's the composer. As Anglican Muzak it is fine, but I have never been able to grasp the point of,eg, Paean and it does nothing for me when heard in recitals. I had always assumed that this was a failure on my part which I should keep quiet about . However, as at least one other person suffers from the same condition perhaps we should form a support group in case there are others out there similarly ashamed of owning up . ================== There was I thinking I was just a lonely little petunia in an onion patch! Actually, in my own defence, I think I was referring to spiritual travel rather than actual travel, even though Bach went hiking around Northern Europe. As for a support group, I think Brian and myself must immediately form one. I think it should be called H.O.W.E.L.L.S. (Howells of Worcester, enabling latent loathing support). MM

================== I just had a disturbing vision of "choirs stacked up to the roof." 'Babylonian' or 'Jerichonian' I wonder? I had this image of the choirs, a blast of the big Tuba and a mini holocaust live on TV as they all tumbled down. Gerard Hoffnung would have had a field day! MM

================ I couldn't remember why I disliked Berlioz so much. Thanks to Mr Sayer for reminding me. MM

================ I don't like Berlioz. MM

My words, the BBC may position their microphones in such a way that the organ is reduced in effect, but the "Last night of the Proms" certainly didn't disappoint, apart from the obvious compression in the volume levels. The old girl sounded in splendid voice with rock-steady wind, and the way she rang out over the top of the BBC Symphony Orchestra / Chorus and 5,000 people, with the pedal reeds trampling over everything like a bull elephant, was quite extraordinary! My loudspeakers enjoyed their annual "outing" and the neighbours asked me, this morning, if I had enjoyed the concert!! I think it calls for an additional "Hip-hip - Hurray!" to John Mander and everyone involved in the work at the RAH. Wasn't the Rodriguez guitar-concerto simply magnificent? Watching John Williams play the guitar is an essay in economy of effort and flawless technique, backed by super musicianship. It took me right back to one of the top six musical moments of my life, when I heard Segovia live in Spain. It just doesn't come better than this! MM

=================== Since writing the article about Czech organs, organ history and organ-music, I've carried out a number of revisions as more material has come to light. It currently runs to about 24 pages. In fact, there is a section on "organs & organists on-line" for articles and reviews, and this is where I intend to archive it in due course. I'm not quite sure what the best format is going to be for the purpose. However, I can send it to anyone as a Word document in the meantime, as I have done to a couple of people on this discussion board already. The same applies to the Hungarian and Polish reviews, if for no other reason than I would welcome any further comments or suggestions, as they are in the revision process at the current time. Ask and thou shalt receive. MM

===================== I'm fascinated to know how Michael Novenko re-wrote two Hindemith Sonatas! As an organist he is well respected, but of course, he is also a notable 12-tone improviser and composer. In fact, you can hear him in action at the following link, by clicking onto the record sleeves, scrolling down and clicking on the treble-clefs for the sound sample from "Musica Bona." http://www.musicabona.com/catalog/CR0217-2.html.en I have a list (probably by no means exhaustive) of around 200 modern or contemporary organ-works from the Czech Republic alone, and I have heard at least a little of some of them. What fascinates me is the sheer diversity of them, with tonal or atonal harmony, folk rhythms, plainsong themes etc etc. I am informed that the Hungarian organists and composers are also remarkable, but thus far, I have struggled terribly with translations of the language and it has proved to be very heavy going. I will repeat my offer, that should anyone be interested, I have quite an interesting article about Czech organ-music, with sound samples and pretty pictures, should anyone be interested. I am also revising a similar pair of articles about Polish and Hungarian organ-history and musical culture. MM