David Coram
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Posts posted by David Coram
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If individual stops 'sag', that should tell you that it's probably not the blower. There would obviously be ample wind for one stop. It's more likely a feature of the wind system itself. How are the wedge reservoirs controlled ? Check with a wind gauge for pressure drops. Are the trunks adequate ? Are the wedges weighted. If I remember my physics correctly, the mass of weights on a wedge reservoir will have a variable effect, depending on the opening angle of the wedge. Do the soundboards have 'local' schwimmer pans, supplied from the wedges ?
I would certainly recommend investigating causes very thoroughly before jumping in with a new blower, which may not solve the issue.
H
Well, I thought that, but the wedgies drop very fast indeed. Trunks are ample sized rectangles, all very trad and solidly made. No schwimmers or concussions. Roller valves all working as well as can be expected and opening everything up about as far as it can go without crashing into the Swell action. The effect varies considerably depending how long the instrument has been switched on - and, possibly to some extent, the prevailing temperature - which has led us to suspect a seriously under-performing blower rather than the more obvious solution you suggest. According to people who've known the instrument for many years, it was all fine when the instrument was new.
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Who's making what these days? I need to replace an inadequate Laukhuff unit 1 1/4HP which seems unable to drive a classical instrument of fewer than 20 stops through two generous wedge bellows. Even individual stops sag.
I've looked into Meidinger but they appear not to be making their own gear anymore.
We've had a BOB unit recently and not been very satisfied with it - bulky, extremely noisy.
We have 3-phase.
Where's the place to go?
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I agree. In all my years as one of Dr. Vann's choristers [40+ years ago] none of the choir had water and certainly not the ley clerks.
Again, interesting to hear different views. I feel that we have learned a very great deal about vocal health in the past 10 years, let alone 25, and both adults and children are pushed a very great deal harder than they were, but usually for shorter 'careers' - the days of boys going on until they're 15 whether their voices have held up or not are long gone. There may be some validity in the belief that standards generally have improved across the parts. (For an example, you only have to look at the choral writing of people like Heathcote Statham to realise that he couldn't rely on his altos to have a decent sound above middle G, so he used to miss them out when everyone else was in unison.) Routine repertoire by Kelly, Tippett, Britten, Chilcott et al is, frankly, harder to sing well than Walmisley in B minor. More cathedrals employ singing specialists like Hilary Jones and Jenevora Williams to get more out of the people they've got. A lay clerk is less likely to be the bloke who runs the post office and more likely to be someone straight out of the RCM. Recordings and broadcasts bring yet more pressure. Lives generally are busier, there is more pollution, churches are more frequently heated and dry in the winter, people generally drink less and spend much more time indoors. I think it's time to accept that discreet hydration is a necessity, but that's just me.
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On the other hand, I hate to see bottled water being consumed in the choir-stalls. A surreptitious mint is one thing, but swigging from a plastic bottle is not on at all.
I'm rather intrigued about this, and wonder what other choir types think about it. Personally I take the view that just as cars need oil, voices need water - especially untrained or partially trained voices, frequently self-confessed amateurs, sometimes children, especially early in the morning, and very especially having had little or nothing in the way of a constructive warm-up. I'd rather see water in the stalls than hear strained voices straining further.
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... and a large amount of savage self-criticism.
What made you stop?
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It seems to lack a Choir Organ and Cremona, Vox Humana, and Clarion stops. Was the Bassoon stop similar to, or the same as, the Hautboy?
Indeed it does. But, it's in a university, and it has most things that most C18th English organs would have, including quasi-trigger swell. And neither is there anything in Oxford (unless Keble is finished and in yet) on which a typical English organist will feel comfortable accompanying a typical English choral evensong without even having to think twice about registration.
I'd love to know how to describe a Bassoon but the ones I have met have been distinctly throatier than the Hautboy, which (where they have appeared in the same instrument) have been a good deal less fruity than a Victorian example might be. The one at Jesus might be described as 'unapologetic'.
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Wouldn't it be marvellous if there existed an organ in one of our ancient universities of the kind that John Marsh was thinking when he wrote those words.
Jesus College, Oxford
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Oh so would I - but I'd rather spend that sort of cash on a 4x4 or a loft conversion.
What? Not an organ?
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In which case all the more reason to follow the current Holt on Ebay and see what it fetches.
There's a set of reeds on there too. I'm quite tempted to buy two of the rubbish ones for 30 quid each and amalgamate into a II/P.
I could even make a detached console electric action version if anybody really wants one! And I can guarantee that all the reeds will be en chamade within the case.
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They suck!
Presumably you get a quicker attack on suction, rather like the difference between exhaust and charge pneumatic?
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It astonishes me. One has total control over the attack and release of each note, an action resembling the best large old tracker organs, and quiet stops so as not to disturb the neighbours. If only the concept had been properly developed: the incredible voicing and subtly of the best Mustels (blowers) with the practicality, size and robustness of the best Holts or Rushworths (suckers). [i am taking for granted a full pedalboard and electric blower/sucker]. I would never give up my reed organ for a toaster, even tho it can sound a tad Pugwashian in the wrong repertoire (who cares when you're just learning the notes). It is the next nest thing to a small pipe organ - and with my Apollo's aged 'pallet' springs, when uncoupled it feels even closer to a temperamental mid-50s Flentrop then ever, meaning one has to stay on the keys! Staccato does NOT work, unless it is weighty and Franckian. No bad thing for beginners transferring from the piano, tempted to play Bach and Mozart as if flying a sewing machine. Carefully controlled détaché works perfectly, however, and a well set up machine speaks just as quickly as comparable pipes, down to 32' in the pedal. Ideal. Plus, 16-foot stops have so many more harmonics, one doesn't need to couple if independent voices are needed. Trios work well on the smallest 2-manual reed organ, uncoupled, tho perhaps with a convenient octave transposition on the manuals (which have an abundance of 16' stops and full C compass).
Sadly, I suspect that the cost of building a new solid oak or mahogany console with ivory & ebony keys would be greater than a mid-price toaster, even before one employed a free-reed voicer skilful enough (if they exist these days). I suspect one might as well commission a decent 3-stop tracker than build a reed organ anew. Expensive. Great shame. I confess to being a convert, without the back ache induced by some new house organs I could mention...
Ian
That's the sort of thing. So, if cleaned up second-hand II/P examples with new springs were available for sub-£2000, you'd be recommending them as practice instruments?
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No, I don't much care for the sound either, PCND - but in terms of making music I much prefer it to just about any electronic.
We happen to have a II/P Rushworth job which we are storing for a customer but have installed as a temporary organ in a couple of places where the main instrument is out for cleaning and overhaul. I had never before heard one in a generous acoustic and it was more than competent to occupy the shoes of the generous 3m Bryceson and Ellis it supplanted, at least temporarily.
In terms of volume, most are choked right back with various flaps and sound-absorbing cloth panels and so on to make them domestically palatable. With such encumbrances removed, the noise can be fearsome at close quarters.
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Taking for granted for one moment that we generally agree on a pipe organ being the best option, and that live music which causes actual vibrations in the air is superior for accompanimental purposes to recorded music (whether from a CD or an electronic organ)...
... why is it that harmoniums and American organs are not regarded as the automatic second choice, being (as they indisputably are) at least the equal of the electronic in terms of maintenance, cheapness, compactness and longevity?
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Hi
Organists’ Review Feb 2011 p.25f - interesting description of the instrument in current form.
Every Blessing
Tony
... any chance of some snippets?
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And those who's only connection is Christening/Marriage/Funeral are not to my mind true members of the Anglican church anyway.
Fortunately, you're not the judge of that. What an incredible statement!
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Luckily, there's no outhouse, but someone clearly sawed bits off the Gothic-style tops of the façade, in order to jam the organ underneath the archway at the end of the arcade from Abbey Cwmhir. I'd be interested to see what Hill did to it - I might go to consult the material in the BOA archives soon. This might be important in the case of the Great Mixture, for example. Wasn't Hill fond of Mixtures with Tierces in the bass only? Could he have removed a Tierce rank from the top of the Mixture?
If Hill had found a Mixture with a Tierce throughout, odds are he'd have left it that way. I take it you don't know whether or not there's a vacant row on the rackboard?
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Organ is definitely from 1845-6, and was moved to the chancel sometime in 1880-2 when George Street refurbished the church. (http://www.cpat.demon.co.uk/projects/longer/churches/montgom/16880.htm)
I think the pedal organ would be priority. Any one else got any thoughts?
Oh, well if it was moved, then I would spend every penny moving it back! Especially if George Street provided his customary outhouse in a distant ditch for the organ to go.
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I'd go with the Great Double if there really is space on the soundboard - but how likely is it that the space could have been vacated by the Cremona alluded to? I would also re-complete the Gt Mixture as 12.15.17 (I presume the two ranks NPOR gives in the treble is as a result of one being removed, as seems to have been fashionable). The Stopped Bass should probably be called just that, but knowing Wadsworth anything would be possible.
With F compass and non-overhanging keyboards it would be a reasonable guess that the action just needs some time setting up *properly*, something which virtually nobody seems able to do. It would seem unusual for the action to have been replaced, especially without the opportunity being taken to provide extra notes to G, which can quite often be fitted onto a soundboard.
In restoration terms I would make a more appropriate pedalboard.
The Trumpet voicing can be sorted. The Flute compass ought probably to stay as it is, since it's likely that the racking space for a bottom octave has already been allocated to the Lieblich Gedact.
The chorus is as complete as the maker intended it to be, so I would certainly not be adding anything else. Wadsworth made fine quality organs.
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What's Bath Abbey like? I only knew the HN&B organ. An organ builder friend of mine, who now lives and works in Wiltshire, said that the Klais Great Open was like No.1 of about four voiced by Herbert Norman. He reckoned all the German builders had a secret craving to voice a really big diapason. That's just an anecdote - what are the reeds like? General opinion seems to be that they got it right . And what's Marlborough College like?
I presume you mean John Budgen, formerly of Suffolk?
A very great deal of the Bath Abbey voicing was left untouched. An organ builder friend of mine who also lives and works in Wiltshire voiced a lot of the new stuff in 1974 as the culmination of his apprenticeship - in particular, the former Gemshorn 8 and Blockflute 4 of the Great, and what there was of the Positive.
Marlborough College is quite a mixed bag. The beautifully made bits are beautifully made, but there are a few little irritations like a phenomenally slow Solo Clarinet (it's a free reed and simply hopeless) and a fairly soft Tuba. I personally dislike the very brassy voicing of the Swell reeds, and the Great diapason chorus - if asked to name that stop, you'd say Harmonic Flutes. The large Mixture on the Great is among the finest I have heard anywhere and makes the whole of the rest of the chorus work superbly well.
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Yes, it looks quite suitable to me. My only doubt with this sort of scheme is that a church with a choral tradition needs the big organ near the choir, not at the back where it will only be useful for hymns and voluntaries.
And me. The orgue de choeur with the choir and the Grande Orgue at the west end is not a new idea. Congregations sing much better with a sound coming from behind them, so it's ideal for everyone.
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Respectfully, it most certainly did not. The pipes were filthy and the keyboards completely worn out. The latter have been replaced.
Best wishes
Ian
Fair dos. I thought it had only been done over in about 1994 but perhaps that was only a superficial job.
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thanks; yes David Wood of Huddersfield. There are pictures of the Clifton case without pipes etc during the cleaning here: http://www.cliftonms.com/organist/
PJW
From the 'before' pictures it looks like it has another 30 years in it yet!
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I played it a few years ago and VH is right - it sounds good at the console and also 'plays well'. My only problem with it is purely personal in that I would not want to play on it week in week out - 'repertoire wise' I need more of what it doesn't have!
A
Indeed. And it sounded much, much better in the building, but worse at the console, before it was tamed by... not John Coulson, the other one from Bristol who almost rhymes and whose name completely escapes me. For me, it's (well, it was) such a musical organ that I was quite content to play just about anything on it, certainly up to and including Mendelssohn.
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It is comparing like with like as far as what we have been presented with goes. If we are supposed to make a value judgement we should be shown the music or given a link to a recording.
And I appreciate pcnd was referring to the copyright notice; I presume every commercial publisher is obliged to add copyright notices here, there and everywhere to protect their investment.
I'll try to rediscover my sense of humour.
Perhaps the tune to "Jesus jesus" and "Hallelujah" is one and the same?
Desert Island Discs
in General discussion
Posted
Ian Partridge singing Peter Warlock - either The Curlew, or a good selection of songs, or both
Wilfred Brown singing Finzi's Dies Natalis
Most of Brian Wilson's output from Pet Sounds onwards
A sprinkling of Lonnie Donegan (I know, but I can't resist the stuff)
Hurford's recording of the Six Trio Sonatas (I know, but they're compelling without any of the quirks of Koopman)
The complete Goon Shows (and you can download the whole lot for about 10 quid from a site called something like Radio Sunday)
The complete Hancock's Half Hours (likewise)
Then that leaves me torn between Joni Mitchell and Leonard Cohen... actually, I'll have them both, and leave the Bach behind.