andyorgan
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Posts posted by andyorgan
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Perhaps my comment about the Stainer tune being “the industry standard” was a little wide of the mark in view of the experience of others. My own preference is “Blaenwern”, though, at the risk of inviting more controversy, I expect I am the only organist in the country who is not entirely happy with the “modulation” from line 3 to line 4. It’s obviously just me. However, I’m sure that one is completely safe with this choice where no preferences are stated, but I did add the rider about weddings and funerals; I don’t think they’ve caught up with current thinking in this neck of the woods. Guilmant will, doubtless, recall.
I go along with Malcolm in his choice of Billing for the Gerontius hymn; I believe Adrian always uses this tune at the cathedral. In response to David Coram’s comment about Jerusalem the Golden, I imagine that the fact that “Aurelia” was written specifically for it is widely known.
What a jolly little hornets’ nest one appears to have stirred up; clearly there are opportunities here for many hours of fruitful time-wasting. My anorak is at the ready.
David Harrison
Thank you David, you are correct, always Blaenwern in that neck of the woods and only the very educated asked for Stainer.
You mentioned Aurelia, one of the most memorable tunes from school days (we alternated between A and M and the PSHB, since outlawed by the socialist government). Firstly in that great geographical hymn 'From Greenland's Icy Mountains', and then for one of our local organists who used to do the hugest of gaps in the middle of the phrase 'Their cry goes up................How long!', in 'The Church's One Foundation'.
I remember meeting an organist years ago who had a very amusing story/poem which had been set to Aurelia. Its a long time ago, and it might have been about a dog....and I might be going crackers, but does this ring a bell with anyone?
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And I am pretty sure Kevin Bowyer has recorded it in Blackburn, or something very similar, its on the "storm" cd
Peter
I have the cd, it is this one and its very good. I once met KB shortly after this was released and he told me there was enough 'storm' music for at least another cd.
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'God is our strength and refuge
Our present help in trouble
And we therefore will not fear
Though the earth should change
Though mountains shake and tremble
Though swirling waters are raging
God the Lord of hosts is with us
Evermore'.
It's around 25 years since I sang this, but I'm pretty certain this is an accurate first verse.
I believe it came from a book called Psalm Praise first published in 1973.
AJS
That's the one, and that would fit in as being 'new' in my Yorkshire Sunday School days of the 1970's.
We also sang a 'worship song' (is that how they are described?) called something like 'Almighty Father' which was to the tune of Handel's Lascia chi pangia. Never been able to find it in a book.
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I favour Richmond, because it helps emphasise the quiet, aweful prayerfulness of the first line. One of my colleagues thinks very differently, i.e. that the "tha-a-a-a-aaasand" moment in Lyngham emphasises the idea of the many.
Depends on the congregation, I love Lyngham with a full, hearty non-conformist congregation. Richmond for the BCP Evensong with three men and a dog in the back row!
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Oh, and While Shepherds Watched to On Ilkley Moor...
Ah, now that one really doesn't count, as that actually exists, I have the Hyperion disc to prove it! We can't include items that have valid historical worth.
There's a Tim Dud Smith set of words to the Clarke Trumpet Voluntary and years ago I remember singing a paraphrase of Psalm 46 to the tune of the Dambusters.
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A curate friend once told me that you can tell where a man stands on the theological/worship candle by which tune he picks for 'O for a thousand tongues to sing'
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Try O Jesus I have Promised to the Muppet Show Theme ...
Fiddlesticks, you beat me to it, and that one's the best!! And agree its better than Hath Castle.
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It really is quite surprising, given all these different published options, that the Stainer “Love Divine” seems to have become more or less the industry standard, or at least, the one they usually want at weddings and funerals!
David Harrison
David, as always some very useful thoughts and I will trawl through my 50 or so hymn books tonight (yes, I know its anoraky, but I've been collecting since a teenager! Anyone got a 1904 A and M for sale?)
However, for me and weddings/funerals, Stainer has never been the industry standard. I always assume Blaenwern UNLESS speficially told not ti, even on occasions where printers for wed/funs have printed the 4 line version.
The only hymn where I double, triple and quadruple check about tunes is 'O Jesus I have promised'. You can tell what kind of wedding it will be, almost from start to finish, by which tune they pick for that one!!
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Not Kendrick controversy, but Townend. I seem to recall there was a bit of a to-do in the RSCM CMQ a few years ago over:
Till on that cross as Jesus died,
The wrath of God was satisfied -
from 'In Christ Alone'. ANyone else remember it, or the discussion that followed? I can't find it in my back copies.
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I hope to report some luck on these as I have put various feelers out with some positive responses so far.
Thanks msw for your report on the difficulty level of the RD.
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Sorry to 'resurrect' this thread, thanks to all who gave me food for thought before Christmas (my wife and the bank balance are not thanking you, however!)
Can anyone throw any light on where I can get any of the Ridout compositions from; the Nativity Dances, the Resurrection Dances, and the Dance Suite (or even how I can get hold of the artist on the Lammas CD, as he is no longer at the school named on the website).
Many thanks
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I used to use the Rawsthorne till I discovered the Lemare one, which is much better, and not that much more tricky. There is certainly more opportunity to 'show the organ off' in the Lemare.
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Well, after my thread last year on music and dance I'm aiming to finish off learning:
-Lemare: Fantasia
-Hollins: Concert Minuet (that's not the exact title)
-Elmore: Rhythmic Suite
-Rawsthorne: Dance Suite
(and possibly Fanfares and Dances by Paul Spicer after hearing the excellent Sharpe/Truro disc)
...to go with various other dance-related pieces.
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Like the above mentioned for No.8, but it really is worth getting hold of Ian Tracey and the orchestra doing No.1 in its arrangement for orchestra and organ. I agree that the first movement is also a good movement, as is the first movement of No.5, and the scherzo always raises a few eyebrows as a voluntary.
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Change of tack momentarily - has anyone played this? I have a recording and it sounds very impressive.
A
A number of my old Edinburgh colleagues have and all are impressed. The website was interesting, thanks for the link, as this appears to be so much bigger and more ambitious than any of the other projects done by Copley. This must have been a bit of a risk (albeit worthwhile by the sounds of it), especially when Glasgow attempted something similar which we have discussed before, and the same happy result was not achieved.
Which recording have you got, is it the one on Pro Organo with the DVD?
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Long played party piece since learning for LTCL 23 years ago!
I try to play all the pedalling, but there are some organs/actions/spaces between pedals I find occasionally a little tricky, so I tend not to double the octave note.
I'd be interested to hear who plays other sonata movements as much of it is pretty average stuff. I play all of no.5 which I think is a very good piece, and since hearing the excellent Ian Tracey + orchestra on Chandos do no.8, I've learnt a couple of movements from it.
Any other offers?
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"However, the 4 second acoustic is no longer there."
I haven't been there for about 5 or 6 years. The acoustic was still there last time I was there (as documented on Priory's '12 organs of Edinburgh discs). I don't know if anything has changed in the interim. The building itself is remarkable, and its division on two levels (which happened already 50 years ago I think) suggests potential for an excellent concert venue (chamber music, choral music etc) with substantial front-of-house facilities (like the Orgelpark in Amsterdam but better!). The organ is to die for but its future may be doubt again I believe. It badly needs somebody local and high-profile to champion its cause.
Bazuin
Agreed! The problem is its in the wrong part of town now. I like your idea of a mini concert hall, but with the city council's massive spend on the ill fated tram project, this seems highly unlikely. The more I think about it, the church has more going for it than the Queen's Hall on the other side of Edinburgh, and it would really showcase the organ, especially if they could take out the divider you mention. Perhaps we can dream...there must be someone with pots of cash in Edinburgh who would take it on. Who would have thought a few years ago a new organ in the RC cathedral courtesy of all our flat tyres and failing brakes.
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10) Edinburgh, St Stephen's Church Centre (1880 Father Willis in 4 seconds of acoustic, neglected by its owners and to a lesser extent by the Edinburgh organ fraternity who seem to prefer the far less beautiful but more politically correct contributions by Rieger and Frobenius in other parts of the city).
Well, a pleasant surprise, but I must pick up on your comment about the organ fraternity in Edinburgh, having been a member sometime ago. Indeed, I've played the organ in an all-French concert and it is really a fantastic instrument. However, the 4 second acoustic is no longer there. It is one of the churches that sprung up in the Newtown when everyone went to church and they all competed for the best organ/organists around, the opening recital attracted over a thousand people and the doors were shut with people still queuing in the street. However, like many city centre churches, as population trends and their Sunday habits have changed, a number of fine instruments/churches have gone. It is a miracle the thing is there at all, having had the building split into two with a mezzanine for 'other activities' and similar buildings are now branches of chain pubs!
Yes, I like the Rieger (sort of) and the Frobenius has its place, but give me the McEwan/St Stevens/Usher Hall any day!
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Had menat to mention this earlier, but what does everybody do in something as mundane as Jesu Joy in the accomp? As a boy, our choirmaster religiously played the two quavers to clash with the three in the obbligato oboe melody. My personal opinion is driven by the speed that you take it at. Again, you're at the mercy of the conductor, but I have occasionally (when forced to play at a very leisurely tempo) done the same thing. My own preference for speed is a brisker dance-like three in a bar, where the class of 2 against three is so close together, that I do end up 'swinging' the quavers.
Its what jazz musicians and 18th century keyboard players have in common, except they called it note inegales!
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I'm not sure what the difference between over dotting and double dotting is. Surely if I tell an orchestra to double-dot the opening of Messiah they know exactly what I mean: lengthen the dotted notes and shorten the succeeding ones. Everyone who's ever opened Watkins Shaw knows that they weren't written as such (and I'm sure that includes Guilmant's trendy conductors and maestri).
I didn't know, though, that what I call "double-dotting" was going out of fashion again - I can't keep up any longer.
The point about not calling it double dotting, is that there are tempi/occasions when something more than doubling is called for, tripling perhaps, or even 2 and a halfing. Anyway, my point is, that if we only refer to it as double dotting, we are mathematically working out our rhythm, as opposed to using the gut feeling already mentioned, that we are hoping our 18th century ancestors hoped that we would know how to do.
Rhythm throws up so many performance practice issues in the 18th century. The other thorny one, is the notation in 4/4 in continuo parts, alongside gigue movements in suites, in 12/8 in melody parts. What do you do when you get two quavers in the bass part. Natural reaction is to crotchet/quaver them, but I've heard eminient people do that most of the way in a movement, and then perhaps at a cadence, actually play two equal quavers.
I had one teacher who always preferred a bit of overdotting in the St Anne prelude in the opening bars, as a way of marking it out from the other thematic material.
If anyone has the (Sir) John Elliot G B minor mass, listen carefully to what he gets the singers to do in the Sanctus. Orchestra parts are all 12/8, with a lovely lilt to them. Then listen to the voice parts which are notated in 4/4 and with dotted notes. He gets the singers to swing 12/8 the dotted rhythms in the middle of phrases, but at Sabaoth at the ends of phrases, gets them to properly dot and overdot ever so slightly just to point out ends of phrases. Its one of the joys of that recording and I think the point is well made. (Off topic slightly, I also like the fact that there is a little flaw in the recording that they've just gone with. Its in the join between the last two movements of the Gloria wher they set off at a horse's gallop on the cum sancto, before he reins them in, delighted it stayed in, they are only human after all).
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....there's is simply no doctrinaire double-dotting ....
O how I remember those arguments in Early Music (c early 90s?) about the dot. We should however remember that there is no such thing, documented or otherwise, as double dotting. Over dotting, yes; a flexible dot, yes, but nothing in the contemporary treatise about double dotting. Having continuoed for numerous Messiahs, I mental sigh appears in my mind when the conductor (fresh from some trendy recording) asks that the orchestra double dot, it shows a lack of any scholarly preparation on behalf of the maestro.
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Thank you for the considerable time and effort to write all that up, much appreciated.
As someone who has enjoyed your playing on recordings from Truro (particularly the PS disc), and also the sounds of the York organ (as recently seen on the JSW/French disc), is there a Sharpe/York recording in the pipeline? Or is it classified information!
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There appears to be no provision for a small portable chamber organ on which to accompany the Gibbons Verse Service.
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Ditto to many of the above (particularly the Cambridge Companion and the Hurford book).
I quite enjoy the odd biog, not so much for the factual information and analysis of works, but also for the social commentary of the time. For which I would recommend the Whitlock biog by one of our forum members, and also Alfred Hollins biog. The latter is fairly weighty, but hey, here was a blind musician who played the piano and organ in front of royalty and embarked on lengthy world tours that many of his better-signted contemporaries would have struggled with.
Mismatched Tunes
in General discussion
Posted
This reminded me, did anyonesee Have I got News for You in the week before Christmas. They claimed it was 'new' news unearthed by the excellent 19th century music scholar at Durham University, Professor Jeremy Dibble (he of Stanford and Parry fame). There was an amusing series of jokes at his, and the carol's expense, which ended with Paul Merton claiming that he could be a distant cousin of Officer Dibble from Top Cat. How many other living Professors of Music have made it on to primetime TV.
Incidentally, the episode was hosted by Bill Bailey, and if you ever get chance to see Bill Bailey's Guild to the Orchestra, its very funny and cleverly put together.