flûte harmonique
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Thanks to everyone who contributed to the 'Compare and contrast' thread. One entry pointed to the five disk EMI Classics "Orgues et organistes français du XXè siècle" set. Disk five includes a recording a Maurice Duruflé playing his Prelude and Fugue sue le nom D’Alain. Lawrence is playing this in his A2 recital and it (apparently) makes sense to use the same piece in the compare and contrast exercise. (I do appreciate that playing this is silly. The examination board want something of AB grade six level, and I’ve tried telling him that it’s better to play a grade six piece perfectly but … well … he’s playing the Duruflé).
So; on the EMI recording Duruflé played his Prelude and Fugue re Alain on the Cavaillé-Coll organ at the Institute for the Young Blind in Paris. Can anyone tell me what the specification of this organ was at the time (I’m guessing around the early 1920s)?
Thanks in advance.
Best wishes
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J
There are 3 organs at this Institute. Two of them are from ACC (Orgue Cavaillé-coll (fin XIX°) - Beuchet-Debierre (1932) - Gonzalez (1953)
-Salle Duroc. Composition as follows:
2 claviers de 61 notes et pédalier de 32 notes. Transmissions mécaniques. 21 jeux.
Grand-orgue :
Quintaton 16'
Montre 8'
Bourdon 8'
Prestant 4'
Flûte 4'
Nasard 2' 2/3
Quarte 2'
Tierce 1' 3/5
Plein-jeu IV rgs
Récit:
Flûte à fuseau 8'
Gambe 8'
Voix céleste 8'
Principal 4'
Doublette 2'
Cymbale IV rgs
Trompette 8'
Hautbois 8'
Pédale:
Soubasse 16'
Flûte 8'
Flûte 4'
Basson 8'
Accouplements: Réc./G.O. en 16' et 8'. Tirasses: G.O., Réc. en 8' et 4'. Expression sur tout l'orgue. Combinaisons ajustables mécaniques.
The second one ( Orgue Cavaillé-Coll (1885) - Gonzalez (1960) is located salle André Marchal, composition:
3 claviers de 61 notes et pédalier de 32 notes. Transmissions électriques. 70 jeux (64 réels).
Grand-Orgue :
Bourdon 16'
Principal 8'
Gemshorn 8'
Flûte harmonique 8'
Bourdon 8'
Prestant 4'
Flûte 4'
Quinte 2' 2/3
Doublette 2'
Cornet V rgs
Plein-jeu VI rgs
Cymbale IV rgs
Bombarde 16'
Trompette 8'
Clairon 4'
Positif :
Montre 8'
Bourdon 8'
Prestant 4'
Flûte 4'
Nasard 2' 2/3
Doublette 2'
Tierce 1' 3/5
Larigot 1' 1/3
Septième 1' 1/7
Piccolo 1'
Plein-jeu III rgs
Cymbale II rgs
Ranquette 16'
Cromorne 8'
Chalumeau 4'
Récit expressif :
Quintaton 16'
Principal 8'
Flûte 8'
Cor de nuit 8'
Salicional 8'
Unda maris 8'
Prestant 4'
Flûte 4'
Flûte 2'
Sesquialtera II rgs
Plein-jeu IV rgs
Cymbale IV rgs
Bombarde 16'
Trompette 8'
Hautbois 8'
Clarinette 8'
Voix humaine 8'
Clairon 4'
Pédale :
Soubasse 32'
Bourdon 16'
Flûte 16'
Soubasse 16'
Principal 8'
Flûte 8'
Bourdon 8'
Principal 4'
Flûte 4'
Nasard 2' 2/3
Flûte 2'
Tierce 1' 3/5
Mixture IV rgs
Bombarde 16'
Trompette 8'
Clairon 4'
Buccine 2'
Bombarde 16' > Récit
Trompette 8' > Récit
Clairon 4' > Récit
Accouplements: Pos./G.O., Réc./G.O., Réc./Pos. Tirasses: G.O., Pos., Réc. Trémolo au Récit. Combinaisons ajustables.
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I hope you won't mind an observation from an outsider.
I watched this clip and found it ugly. I also watched the Pincemaille (sp?) and Hakim clips posted by the same person.
It all seems to be like an exercise in playing as many notes as possible, as loudly as possible, as quickly as possible. There's no beauty in it.
I imagine the cognoscenti will be able to point to fantastically clever moments in all these clips and I readily accept I may be far too close to the floor of the aesthetic pyramid to appreciate what I'm hearing, but it's just an ugly noise. Great techinique, no doubt, but where's the music?
I know not all improvisation is like this and have heard wonderful, musical improvisations by Thomas Trotter and David Briggs, so I don't think that improvisation is all about technique and not about taste, but so many of these improvisations seem little more than peacock displays.
Any organist can convince me of their brilliant technique in 20 seconds. After that, I want to know if they are musicians too.
I'd much rather hear, I think, David's 6 soft minutes on Linden Lea.
But that's just a personal view from a non-organist.
J
"De gustibus et coloribus non disputendum" but PLEASE don't judge musicians from videos badly recorded....
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AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!
Please tell me you are joking....
PIERRE COCHEREAU!!
Specially for you:
Latry explains one of the various way to get to the general tutti in NDP with a piece of Widor:
1. Tutti
2. Tutti +chamades(régales)
3. Tutti+ chamades(régales) + Chamades Cochereau (slightly modified in 92)
4. The same + all couplings 8 and 16
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AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!
Please tell me you are joking....
PIERRE COCHEREAU!!
Yes of course!!!!
I'm old enough to have had the chance to see him playing at his loft from 1968 to 1971.
If you are interested I can put a link to a private exhibition of the NDP organ in 2004 by Latry...but unfortunately I did not have any camera in 1968...
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IMHO, Latry and Lefebvre inaugurating Budapest organ gives evidence, a contrario, that the art of improvisation is something to be taken seriously....
Anyway Latry has never said he had the same skills at impro than his predecessor (recall me his name?)
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Though it's an achievement, imho it's another Cochereau imitation - listen to the first track of the 3-disc set ' L'organiste de Notre-Dame' and you'll find the original for this 'style'.
BTW. by the look on his face, does he enjoy playing?
There is something to do with, in general, the French impro style : this is the reason why you may say "another Cochereau imitation".
I would say this is more in Pincemaille's approach since he was his pupill some years ago.
His style has now evolved in a more neo tonal style, thanks to it he got in june 2007 his last prize in impro.
Anyway Baptiste-Florian is able to improvise in any style you may wish: Widor, Vierne, Dupré,, Cochereau, Duruflé, Escaich....At the Conservatoire de Paris they are trained to do it effortless.
He comes to an age (25) when he has to find his own musical style. After all plenty of others musicians have musically accomplished themselves around this age!
Anyway, he is considered by Latry, Escaich and others as one of the best improvisers.
PS Baptiste loves to joke but when he plays, his face reflects his concentration
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As this thread is about impro, here an example of the skills of the young French organist class:
Baptiste-Florian Marle-Ouvrard improvises a sortie on "vive le vent d'hiver" (jingle bells) in december 2004 on the 42 stops Abbey organ of "St Vincent de Paul de Clichy (near Paris). He has obtained 8 first prizes at the Conservatoire national de musique de Paris.
Pupill of Pincemaille for impro and Harmony and Latry for interpretation.
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=x778nGLc8pk
An other example: Pierre Pincemaille improvises a sort of "fileuse" in concert (sorry for the bad quality of the image and the sound!)
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Pierre Pincemaille who is one of the today best improviser expresses his opinion as follows (clumsy translation from his website www.pierrepincemaille.com): "The Art of the Improvisation lies in a question: how to exploit a theme - either selected, or imposed? This question calls immediately another one: why, to the listening of an improvisation, one is too often condemned to hear at its beginning only one quotation of the theme (even roughly harmonized ); another with the peroration (of an air to say: You see! I have been able to use it! …) ; and between the two: nothing more ? Nothing more… except a laborious verbiage resulting in a deep trouble of the audience of which the author is not even conscious. It is thus necessary to know to develop the theme while taking advantage of all its resources: such melody contour, such rhythmic cell being used as ingredients.
That requires a control of the musical Forms, a very good registration by the knowledge of the resources of the instrument (and the complete exploitation of the various timbres), finally and especially, a very solid experience in musical Writing - Harmony, Contrepoint and Fugue: any improviser reaches the top of his art when he is able to carry out with the keyboard an as well organized work as that he could have written on paper. Still it is necessary for him to be able to write it…"
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I wonder "what turns people on" musically?
I'm looking for those "creeping flesh" moments, when everything which has gone before seems second-best.
It can cross all boundaries and all styles of music, so it's really very easy, isn't it?
The greatest moments are :
1. Marcel Dupré's last concert in Notre Dame de Paris (october 1969) : an incredible improvised symphonie with a lot of mistakes due to his arthritism but plenty of essential music.
2. All the yearly concerts by Pierre Cochereau in NDP (with special mention of the 1970 one!!)
3. J.Guillou in early 70's in Saint Eustache (Visions cosmiques)
4. Pierre Pincemaille interprting the 4th of Widor and Dupré's symphonie passion in St Sulpice (2003)
5. D.Briggs in Notre Dame playing his transcription of Cochereau's Scherzo symphonique: one would have said Pierre was at the loft!
6. Michelle Leclerc in Notre Dame playing "berceuse à la mémoire de Louis Vierne" transcribed by Frédéric Blanc: unforgettable!!
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I had this on tape and I think that it was from St Sernin Toulouse. However my tapes have now been passed on or recycled so I can't check this.
AJJ
I consider the version by André Marchal pl
I had this on tape and I think that it was from St Sernin Toulouse. However my tapes have now been passed on or recycled so I can't check this.AJJ
I consider the version by André Marchal playing Franck's organ works as the most valuable one.
I got held of a second hand copy (ERATO) through amazon.com, because the recording (1956) is now soldout§
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I will be in Sarlat in the Dordogne for a couple of weeks over the Summer, and all the guide books make a point of mentioning the splendid organ in the cathedral.
Google throws up a couple of recordings of C18th music, notably one by Andre Isoir of Roberday.
Can anyone help me with any detail on this organ ? Are there concerts over the Summer ? Is it worth making enquiries to see if I might get to play it ?
On a more general point, I often wonder whether there is a French equivalent of the NPOR or even RCO which could give a lead or introduction on these enquiries.
Any help gratefully received,
Many thanks,
M
Composition of the Saint Sacerdos organ in the cathedral recently refurbished (2005)
Sarlat, cathédrale Saint Sacerdos
(Grand-Orgue)
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Orgue Lépine (1752) - Cattiaux (2005)
4 claviers, pédalier à la française. Transmissions mécaniques pour les notes et les jeux.
Composition :
Positif:
Montre 8'
Bourdon 8'
Prestant 4'
Nazard 2' 2/3
Doublette 2'
Tierce 1' 3/5
Larigot 1' 1/3
Plein-jeu VI rgs
Trompette 8'
Cromorne 8'
Grand-Orgue:
Bourdon 16'
Bourdon 8'
Montre 8'
Grand Nazard 5' 1/3
Prestant 4'
Grosse tierce 3' 1/5
Nazard 2' 2/3
Doublette 2'
Quarte 2'
Tierce 1' 3/5
Cornet V rgs
Fourniture V rgs
Cymbale IV rgs
Trompette 8'
Voix humaine 8'
Clairon 4'
Récit:
Trompette 8'
Cornet V rgs
Echo:
Cornet V rgs
Pédale:
Soubasse 16'
Flûte 8'
Flûte 4'
Nazard 2' 2/3
Quarte 2'
Tierce 1' 3/5
Trompette 8'
Clairon 4'
(ravalement au
Fa0 sans fa#)
Historique: Grand huit pied construit en 1752 par le facteur Jean-François Lépine élève de Dom Bedos qui fut l'expert pour la réception de l'instrument et en fit un rapport élogieux. Le buffet est décrit dans l'ouvrage de N. Dufourcq Le livre de l'orgue français: positif et grand orgue placés sur un piédouche en nid d'hirondelle au mur du fond de la grande nef, au dessus du portail d'entrée.
Remerciements: Bernard Podevin, Gaël Tardivel.
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Hi everyone and greetings from Sydney.
My cello playing partner and I give many recitals together and we're looking to build up a list of preferably original works for the two instruments. If anyone can help with suggestions we'd love to recieve them.
My email direct is petejellis@hotmail.com. Also anyone wishing to drop in at St. James' Church (www.stjameschurchsydney.org.au) and have a play is more than welcome to contact me.
Thanks
Peter Ellis
See a recent recording by French musicians "Cello and organ"
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The sunday mass is at 10 am. The great organ intervenes 4 times ( entrée, offertoire, communion and sortie) that is to say that you benefit from 15 to 20 minutes of superb improvisations as Pincemaille allways improvises.
To check his presence you can go to the heading "agenda" in his site : www.pierrepincemaille.com
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St Sulpice is not surprisingly coming out high in the list of finest organs - so I thought fellow enthusiasts might be interested in my trip to Paris last Easter. - Something I've always wanted to do . I started off at the Easter Vigil at St Sulpice at 9:30 pm on Holy Saturday. The congregation proceeded from the square, carrying candles, into a pitch black church... and ... a magnificent Daniel Roth improvisation..... The service was very long, including meditations, baptisms and communion celebrated by 16 preists! At the end, in semi darkness - a great improvisation lasting well over 20 minutes - many plainsong themes - seldom below forte ....
At High Mass on Sunday Widor's 10th
and another fantastic improvisation .A warning however, in the afternoon I went to Notre Dame - there was a continuous circulation of tourists crowds
- even during the services! Hearing both organs on the same day was interesting - there doesn't seem much of Cavaille Coll sound left at Notre Dame .... it's another all purpose organ. Nevertheless Oliver Latry finished the evening Mass with Widor's Toccata - I think this is an enormously effective piece (although much sneered at in these pages
)- when played at a sensible speed on a large enough organ in the right acoustics.Heaven is only a Train ride away...
As parisian, I use to visit St Sulpice and Notre Dame organs.
I consider St Sulpice as over hyped: it sounds a bit like a big harmonium. This is partly due to the Chalgrin's case which impedes the pipes to develop their real tone. This is also because ACC conceived this instrument differently (foundations stops sound more "gambés" than "flûtés"). Of course I enjoy very much listening to it but my preference goes to the first ACC in St Denis which is still classic (it was built in 1841) and romantic in the same time: in fact this instrument was 10 or 15 years ahead! I have also to add that the titular, Pierre Pincemaille , is an extraordinary organist capable to enhance the beauty of his organ!
With respect of Nore Dame I completely share the views of pcnd5584 !
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Any nomination process for a prestigious position like this has its (un)fair share of power wielding and backstage intrigue. Vierne got the job in 1900 thanks to the singlehanded power of Widor, Cochereau likewise in 1955 thanks to Dupré. Does that diminish the talent or the merits of either of them?
Probably not, but I simply wanted to say that the current organists are not as well known as PC was because there is no mean to identify one person to this famous organ . Everybody is (or was able) to quote :Dupré and St Sulpice, Cochereau and NDP, Messiaen and La Trinité, Guillou and St Eustache, Pincemaille and St Denis....
Latry, Lefebvre and Legay are just employees amongst others even though they are good musicians!!
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After Cochereau, 4 titulaires were employed (as in the 18th century). A booklet on the organ and organists of NDdP states that 4 titulairs were employed to share the load of the function, somewhere else (don't recall where) I read that this was also to reduce the public focus on the Organist-Titulair in favour of the Cathedral and it's where abouts.
The real thing is that the cardinal Lustiger did'nt stand PC's aura...And in order to avoid such major drawbacks, he decided to hire 4 organists with something in mind : maintain law and order by dividing the charge!
The argument raised that is was necessary to have 4 organists to share the services is obviously misleading: there are 4 masses over each week-end and not more like in the ancient times!
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Cochereau is over hyped, with all that rolling around on the pedals for his improvisations and thoroughly distasteful registration, not least in his Dupre with cheezy bits at the end of the Symphonie Passion Nativite. Even worse when people even try to emulate that style
WHY!!! , and there are several contenders for that. I think his "version" of the Vierne Berceuse is actually almost good, but he did too little all in the same style much for too long, and it's sad to think that the current Organist of ND is not revered as much. It's like Mozart, kick the bucket and you're an icon.R
it's sad to think that the current Organist of ND is not revered as muchThere are 3 titular organists in NDP: you should thus add the plurial!
Difficult to compare the current situation with Cochereau's period: any music lover or even the public at large was able to say in the 70's that the NDP titular was Pierre Cochereau.
Who is able to say who is (or are) the NDP organist(s) today???
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Just some information from France :
I never heard saying that M. Cochereau did play Reubke's Sonata. To my mind, there are no records anyway.
Concerning Dupré / Cochereau : some posts here almost present M. Dupré as senile, from the 50s / 60s..... !!!!!!! Only his playing was slowed down by rhumatisms, but his mind stayed clear ! He clearly expressed sometimes that M. Cochereau was a one-off, this is not just a legend.Concerning Carbou's recordings in ND : as far as I know, the micros were at 15 maters approx. from the organ, but not on the organ loft.
Concerning the Symphonie Passion : i personally recommend the 1956 version in ND. The organ is a little bit out of tune, but still has Cavaillé-Coll's action. The organ and the playing are fascinating, magic ! M. Dupré has obviously know this recording, which is now available at Solstice (on the web); it is a double CD, where there also are Ad Nos / Liszt at ND, and the Symphony extemporized on the Skinner in Boston, all that by a 32 year old guy !
Concerning M. Pincemmaille : I think he has never studied with M. Cochereau, but with Mme Falcinelli in the Conservatoire Suérieur / Paris, who took over from M. Dupré. Although the tradition is the same, M. Pincemaille, a wonderful concertist and improviser, can be easily distinguished, I think from M. Cochereau (I do not mean this being a criticism !!!!).
Best regards,
PF Baron / France
I've never said that Dupré was senile. Since I have had the opportunity ,when I was a young student, to discuss with him and to see him play(1967-1968), I just confirm he was not able to play as fast as he did when he was younger because of fingers deformed by this desease. It's audible in the recording of his NDP recital in october 1969!
As far as Pincemaille is concerned, this is true to say that he has never been Cochereau's pupill. But as he describes it very well in a book organised by Y Carbou as a tribute to PC, he has been seeing him play in ND so often that he has become imbued with PC's style of improvisation, himself directly inspired by Dupré'style like (variations sur un vieux noel)...There is there an obvious filiation!
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But then: how do we know that?
1) This is in the leaflet in the PC's interpretation of some Dupré'works (edited by fy solstice in 1975)
2) I have been lucky enough to meet PC at his loft at that time and this question araised in the discussion with people I don't remember, but I'm sure that Dupré told Cochereau he was free to adopt faster rythm..
3) Dupré admired a lot his disciple Cochereau as it is well described above by "pcnd"...Don't forget that Dupré was a great virtuoso himself before being reached by osteoarthritis in the 50's . If he had had the chance to play younger the NDP organ modified according PC's wishes, he would have taken up an other way of playing his own works...
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I think that this is an appalling thought.
His 'version', especially of the rhythm, of Dupre's Passion Symphony is bad enough, but Reubke with those chamades - it would be almost as great a travesty as the Brahm's G minor Prelude and Fugue, played a la Francaise by Philippe Lefebvre, at the re-opening recital!
Hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiideous.
You may not like Cochereau's interpretation of the symphonie passion, but you have to know that Dupré himself said to Cochereau that the rhytm he decided to adopt was fine to him....
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I had a dream that I was travelling in a Paris taxi...Hurtling past places that I almost recognised. Not quite sure what to hold on to. Frightened that we would crash at any moment. But through the skill of the driver we just made it to our destination in one piece...
Then I woke up and found I was listening to the Pincemaille Franck!
I don't find this CD a comfortable listening experience and I'm not yet sure what elements to take from it, but I admire Pierre Pincemaille's courage in abandoning convention and interpreting the music in his own way.
The Saint-Sernin chamades are stunning. Perhaps every Paris taxi driver should have one!
Perhaps it is a sign that I am getting older, but I still prefer André Marchal's recordings at (the old) St Eustache, in which he didn't follow the composer's indications exactly, but achieved a beautiful sound in spite of the shortcomings of the instrument.
JC
Your metaphor is excellent and made me laugh!
In fact I know very well Pincemaille whom I visit regularly at his ACC Opus 1 in St Denis. He plays like a real virtuoso and I'm not frightened by his speed as he has got an amazing technique! A part from that he is also an excellent driver !!
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My copy of the Olivier Latry Franck arrived this morning. I don't know if it would sound better on SACD equipment, but I found it disappointing from start to finish. I didn't perceive a single spark of emotion or ray of sunshine anywhere. Nor did it sound like N.D. de Paris. At times, the melodic lines were almost lost. When I contrast this recording with the energy in the Vierne and Widor discs, I can't help thinking that the chemistry between composer, performer and producer was less successful on this occasion.
JC
You better try the very last recording of Franck's organ works by Pincemaille on St Sernin de Toulouse!
He explains why he has adopted rather faster tempi than usual.
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Maybe in his wisdom he was right. But he didn't like the Requiem much either - the story goes that Dupré rescued the manuscript from being thrown in the fireplace.
Personally I like the (revised) Toccata a lot.
So do I and so Pierre Pincemaille does.
In Duruflé's complete works for organ recorded in Bonn, it is clearly said that Duruflé more or less disavowed the first version of his toccata which is nervertheless played by Pincemaille who told me a few months ago he was prefering the original version.
Worth noticing that this piece was one of the obligatory finalist pieces in the 1974 International Chartres competition chaired by Marie-Madeleine Duruflé herself!
and another fantastic improvisation 
)- when played at a sensible speed on a large enough organ in the right acoustics.
WHY!!! , and there are several contenders for that. I think his "version" of the Vierne Berceuse is actually almost good, but he did too little all in the same style much for too long, and it's sad to think that the current Organist of ND is not revered as much. It's like Mozart, kick the bucket and you're an icon.
L'institut Des Jeunes Aveugles
in The Organ
Posted
This organ by ACC had 34 stops when it has been built. It was inaugurated by César Franck in 1883.
For the rest, I'll find out.