S_L
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Posts posted by S_L
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I'm aware that I have upset a few people here! Equally I should tell fellow members that I have also received some pretty nasty private messages from members of this board and have shared them with those members I trust. I wouldn't disagree with Vox to say that the worst enemies of organists are their fellow organists! (If you don't believe me try conducting a 'once a year, local organists association Service' and, afterwards sit back and watch and feel the flack!!!)!)
Nowadays, when I do post, I try to read my replies very carefully, to make sure that they are not misinterpreted, misunderstood or give any cause for offence! I have said before that, I think, we are at our best when discussing musical topics and, I believe, at our worst when we huddle over bits of paper disagreeing over a proposed specification and whether a Mixture should have a 'whatever' in it - without due consideration for the person/people who have put the proposal together and who know what they want from the instrument - and who, possibly, also read this board!!
I look almost every day and some topics fire me with enthusiasm, others leave me cold - but that is the nature of this type of board. Sometimes I don't post because I have nothing to add to the knowledge on a particular subject. Like John Robinson I do not consider myself to be an organist (I can play to ARCO standard!) but I, mostly, enjoy the board and have learned a lot from members here - for which I thank them, sincerely!
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And an interesting, if slightly predictable list of music for the celebration. It will be good to watch it - from afar!!!
Messe de Minuit (Gloria, Agnus Dei) - Marc-Antoine Charpentier
Quem pastores laudavere - Hieronympus Praetorius
Ordinary: Mass IX Cum jubilo (Kyrie, Sanctus)
Hodie, Christus natus est - Giovanni Pierluigi da Palestrina
Voluntary: Toccata-Gigue on the Sussex Carol - George Baker
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On 22/11/2018 at 19:19, Denis O'Connor said:
aIn my distant youth,the popular setting in Roman Catholic churches was that composed by the Abbe Stadler.
One of the bishops of those far-off days turned round from the altar and gestured for the choir to shut up ;he may have muttered something to that effect but I can't be sure.
Yes, I have grim recollections of Stadler too!! Clearly the Bishop in question had a certain amount of taste!!!
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As usual with anything from Westminster Abbey - the service was beautifully conceived and executed!
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And from http://organstops.org/c/Celesta.html
A percussion stop consisting of a set of metal plates struck by hammers actuated by a pneumatic or electric mechanism. According to Sumner, it is usually of 4' pitch, and may utilize “tuning forks” instead of plates. According to Audsley, the plates are placed over tuned resonators. This stop is most often found in theatre organs.
Skinner describes the Celesta as “an orchestral reproduction developed by the author”, of 4' pitch and full 61 note compass, and considers it synonymous with the Glockenspiel, and with the Harp at 8' pitch. He reports that when the stop was originally developed, the bars and their resonators were arranged chromatically, and some notes in the lower register were nearly silent. When the bars and their resonators were rearranged so that adjacent notes of the scale were no longer physically adjacent, the problem disappeared.
Maclean lists Chrysoglott as a Wurlitzer synonym for Celesta; it is found only in theatre organs. Irwin, the only other source to mention Chrysoglott, lists it separately from Celesta but gives them identical descriptions.
Examples
Osiris contains dozens of examples of Celesta. The earliest known examples date from the 1910's but the earliest known Skinner examples date from the 1920's. Osiris contains ten examples of Chrysoglott, all but one by Wurlitzer.
………………………. but, of course, you have read this before!!
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Does that help at all - or does it just confuse the issue?
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8 hours ago, John Robinson said:
Whilst I would support that, I'm afraid we as a country are lacking in the continuing fervent interest in the organ as found in such places as Germany and the Netherlands. They seem to have new organs springing up all over the place!
I don't know exactly why that should be, but that is the impression I get anyway.
That's a misapprehension that you, in the UK, seem to make all the time. The Dutch and German firms are busy but so are British firms. Look at the number of big, major, new projects, in the UK, ongoing and in the last couple of years! Off the top of my head - Manchester, Canterbury, Buckfast, Llandaff and the list of major rebuilds and restorations, ongoing or in the pipeline, is even bigger - York, Bristol, Norwich - and half a dozen more! And then there are the smaller instruments and some from abroad and the historical magnificent reconstructions - Christ Church Spitalfields for instance! Given time the list of exciting ventures in organ building in the UK is considerable!
A bit more 'half full' and less 'half empty' would be a good start! 'Getting off backsides' is one thing but getting rid of 'long faces' and stopping complaining about how hard done by the organ world is another! It's not all doom and gloom by any stretch of the imaginiation! A year or so ago there was a thread on lack of organ music at the 'Proms'. I remember spending half an hour looking at the number of organ recitals, in London alone, during the 'Prom' season. If I remember it amounted to over a hundred recitals - given my eminent players and, perhaps, some less eminent players. but, on here, it was pushed aside in favour of 'no organ music at the Proms'!!
And I won't get on my hobby-horse and comment about what we are like when a new instrument comes our way!!!.
Sorry ladies and gents - it's early - I'll go back to bed!!!
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13 hours ago, John Furse said:
‘Where there’s a will, there’s a way.’
And, that’s only one way to go. Manchester, as one of the UK’s great musical/sporting/education/insert other criteria cities, has so much to offer. In the last few decades, as has been stated, the Bridgewater Hall and now the Cathedral have had major new instruments.
Well-run, imaginative and innovative fund-raising should, easily, meet its target. The Town Hall is a glorious building and is entitled to the restoration of its Cavaillé-Coll. There are football clubs, rich people, a thriving social scene . . . Can we not reach out to these and evoke civic pride ? Is it really beyond a primary school (or whatever they’re called, these days), say, to sponsor a pipe ? Only by new thinking (!) like this will some of our greatest organ heritage be saved from the ‘skip’.
We cannot expect commercial enterprises (organ builders) to stop paying their skilled employees and work for next to nowt. They would go under immediately.
There is a parallel situation in Middlesbrough, with their Town Hall and its historic Hill.
I fervently hope that both instruments are given the recognition and restoration they so deserve.
I don't disagree with any of that!
Perhaps it is time for those in charge of these instruments to 'get off their backsides', stop whinging about how hard it is and about how little the authorities care and do something about it! There is money to be had out there. It isn't always easy to find but, with imagination, and, sometimes, a little cheek, money can be forthcoming.
Years ago I took a church choir to Rome. I needed money to do it. The church I worked at had a religious community attached to it. They had a number of cars, in the community, which they bought from a local dealership. I went, cap in hand, to the dealership and got £500 out of them - a good deal of money in 1989! Remember the Porsche console at Leipzig!!! Manchester has two of the richest football clubs in the country - that must be worth a touch! And the list goes on! Sometimes it is worth employing a fundraiser to get in money - it's out there - it just needs finding!!!
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2 hours ago, David Drinkell said:
The Black Dyke "Messiah" is a long-standing Leeds tradition. I remember Simon Lindley telling me years ago that they invite a different conductor each year but take no notice of him!
As a former orchestral player I can give you a list of, well-known, conductors who we took little, or no, notice of!
I heard the Huddersfield Methodist Choir 'do' 'Messiah' in the early 70's. That was accompanied by Brass Band too! I believe that was also a Huddersfield tradition.
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14 hours ago, Peter Allison said:
Thank goodness for Leeds Council, …………………………………………………………….. they have an amazing concert programme of classical music
I looked at the 'What's on' brochure and you are so right. Lots of exciting music performed by some of the world's great players and orchestras. I noticed all kinds of absolute 'gems' - including a performance, conducted by David Hill, of 'Messiah' - accompanied by Black Dyke Mills Brass Band!!
I went to, what I think, was the opening recital, after the Wood Wordsworth rebuild in 1972, given by, I think, Flor Peeters - but I'm sure I will be corrected on that if I'm wrong! The organ is reputed to be the largest 3 manual in the country - and, at 84 speaking stops, I can well believe it! But, I know, if I'm wrong there will, again, be someone on here to correct me!!!
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The Bruckner setting is hard - and is quite a sing - I've done it using two organs instead of the original scoring of organ and three trombones!!
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5 hours ago, timothyguntrip said:
I really like the Elgar - the choirs I've introduced it to have also rather enjoyed it too!
I can understand choirs enjoying it! Choirs I have done it with have always enjoyed singing it. It's effective for the occasion of the entrance of a Bishop, it's isn't difficult to sing, there's nothing much that can go wrong, it's tuneful and it stands well, in fact very well, against some of the other settings of the text!
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1 hour ago, Martin Cooke said:
Nail... head... a truly grim experience listening to that clip! An awful way to start a Sunday morning. Don't do it to yourself!
Martin - it could have been worse!! I heard the story of a Bishop who was greeted with 'He's got the whole world in his hands!!!'
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Ecce Sacerdos magnus is the plainsong Antiphon usually sung for the Reception of a Bishop. (Liber Usualis pg. 1841) It used to, more usually, follow Sacerdos et Pontifex! There are lots of settings of varying degrees of awfulness! Vox is right that the Vittoria, which is wonderful, is, possibly, the most famous setting but the Elgar is, possibly, the most used! I much prefer the unaccompanied Vittoria but, every time I needed a setting, the Elgar always seemed to win - possibly because it used the organ and, to the laity anyway, seemed more a more appropriate way of greeting a Bishop !
I listened to the clip. It isn't the James McMillan (skeleton score here!) http://boosey.epartnershub.com/Ecce-Sacerdos-Magnus-27395.aspx which was written for the enthronement of the Bishop of Aberdeen, was written for Unison voices, two trumpets and organ and ends with the doxology Gloria patri et filio et spiritui sancto! - but what it is I have no idea - sorry to say but I think it's pretty awful music!!
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6 hours ago, Colin Pykett said:
I endorse the sentiments of those who have written above, but was a bit shocked to read of S_L's impolite rebuff.
CEP
In truth, Colin, I was a little shocked by his impoliteness too! To be honest, I was also shocked by his playing which wasn't very good. It, definitely, was the 'Director of Music' because I found a photograph of him at the back of the church and, looking it up when I returned home I realised that he was far less qualified, by a very long way, to play the instrument than I was!! But, as I said before, such is life!!!!
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12 hours ago, OmegaConsort said:
We are very happy for people to come and play, or watch. We are after all, curators of these instruments, not owners!
9 hours ago, David Drinkell said:When I was starting out, I was struck by how willing the real greats, like Francis Jackson and Allan Wicks, were to let me try their instruments and I made a note that if I ever came to have an outstanding instrument in my care, I would let people play.
I think that this is so important and very much worth remembering, particularly when dealing with young aspiring organists. I remember the organist of the church I attended as a youngster. He wasn't one of the 'greats', by any imagination, but he was always being willing to let me play after service, reminding me to switch off and lock up after I had finished and leaving me to make as many horrendous noises as I liked. It was an important part of my learning process and I am grateful to him.
But so often I have found, certainly in the UK, an approach that is less than encouraging. By coincidence I spent last weekend in the UK and visited one of the 'greater churches'. The organist was playing and, afterwards, I tried to engage him in conversation with a hope that I might have a brief play. He, clearly, wasn't in a hurry to go anywhere but didn't want to know! Such is life!
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Thank you for that, Dave. The pictures are wonderful and the 'Portugal Organs' website is fascinating! Glad you enjoyed your holiday.
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Some would say that it's the largest Parish church in the UK. And I suspect that it is very difficult when you have a huge medieval building with all its attendant problems. Little or no money to speak of, in the middle of a city with little or no surrounding parish, a leaking roof, crumbling masonry brought about by the winds coming off the nearby river and North Sea. When you're putting out buckets to stop what little congregation you have from being rained on it's difficult to think about aesthetics! Survival is the name of the game.
But now, of course, it's a Minster and there seems to be a new direction and a new dynamism about the place. The new incumbent seems determined to make the 'Minster' work and be relevant to the city, and not only as a place of worship. A huge restoration of the churchyard and of the fabric has taken place as well as a complete re-ordering of the internal space.
I'm not sure it is to do with any one person having influence. It is to do with timing. Yes, the organ has lain waiting for restoration for a very long time, perhaps too long, but it appears as if the time is now right to start thinking about that restoration.
It will be interesting to follow the progress.
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As has been mentioned here on numerous occasions, the organ of Hull Minster is in a pitiful state. At last, there seems to be a desire to restore this magnificent beast and, because of the huge cost involved, this is to be done in stages.
Further details appear on the Hull Minster website here:
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LOL - No 6 isn't in London - even if it looks as if it is!!
St. Mary the Virgin Aldermanbury - in Fulton Missouri, USA!!
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Well - they are all, well nearly all, in the City of London - lots of, what looks like, Wren!
1) All Hallows, London Wall
2) St. Martin's, Ludgate Hill
3) St. Mary, Woolnoth
4) St. Stephen's, Walbrook
5) St Mary at Hill
6) ?
7) St. Mary le Bow
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7 hours ago, Steve Goodwin said:
I really don't think that's true.
As has been discussed above, there is much, much more to the choice than just 'caring about music'.Actually I agree with that! I don't want to get into a 'pipe v electronic' debate but it could very well be that, buying an electronic, shows that the church cares very much about its programme of music. Every circumstance is different and a blanket judgement isn't particularly helpful!
Well, that's what I think anyway!!
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In my days, as a member of a professional orchestra, piano parts, such as in Shostakovitch Symphony 5, and organ parts, such as in Elgar Engima Variations, were usually played by someone who was also a member of the percussion section.
In truth what, more frequently, happened with the organ parts were that they just were missed out which was a great shame. In Enigma the organ only plays in the last variation and is marked at the beginning of the score as ad lib. I think the majority of performances I took part in missed the organ out but, when it was included, the pedal entry just after Fig. 76, where Elgar marks 16' & 32', is devastating and the long sustained pedal writing, from there to the end of the movement, holds the whole orchestra up! - just like in Pomp & Circumstance last night!
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I don't think that Andrew Davis forgot to thank the organist, being an ex Kings organ scholar I can't imagine him doing that. However the organist was just a member of the orchestra and stood in recognition of the applause like the rest of the band! He didn't thank the timpani player either!
As to who was playing? It was probably the organist attached to the BBC Symphony orchestra. His name would be given in the programme if you could get hold of one!
On the subject of the 'Proms' I did think that it was one of the most imaginative series for a very long time. Of course there were omissions but lots of amazing performances by amazing musicians and a huge variety of music. I heard quite a lot of it. I think the highlights, for me, were the Messiaen Turangalila symphony and the Tallis scholars evening! The Messiaen is an amazing work!!
Organ Scholarhips and Conservatoires
in General discussion
Posted
There was a time, quite a long time ago, when I was looking at where to further my musical education that certain, now well-respected Universities, were accepting undergraduates with Grade V on a instrument and 'some level of keyboard attainment'. In those days, if you were an instrumentalist, I was a 'cellist, and you were half decent you went to a Music Conservatoire - the RCM/RAM being the most prestigious followed by Manchester, the lesser London colleges, Birmingham and so on - and not necessarily in that order. Things changed and Universities started asking for Grade VIII as an acceptable entry qualification and the Conservatoires also started to become more and more competitive. I think it is true, and I expect to be shot down for this, to say that the RCM/RAM are still the most prestigious but the RNCM, The Royal Welsh, The Royal Conservatoire of Birmingham and the Royal Scottish are all institutions of excellence in performance and composition. I spent two years at RCM followed by five years in Cambridge where, it seemed that almost every undergraduate had Grade VIII on something or other!!!
What has happened since my Undergraduate days I'm not too sure but I do know this that, some time ago I advertised for an assistant. We wanted an enthusiastic NQT with a good degree, they had to teach to A level, and a good level of performance - which we expected them to demonstrate at interview. The standard, with one exception, was woeful! We had candidates with Music degrees from all kinds of institutions who had little or no idea of the kind of standard of musicianship we required from our staff. As well as play on their first instrument I asked candidates to do three keyboard tests - some simple transposition, score reading and some keyboard harmony - things that I did every day! The transposition was laughable but the score reading (the first 20 odd bars of the 2nd movement of Mozart Symphony 40!) was horrendous. Members of the board will know that the music starts in the violas - several candidates began in the wrong octave or were not able to read the alto clef! The 'cellos then come in (Bass clef) followed by the 2nd violins (Treble clef), the 1st violins and then the horns - in E flat! It was carnage!! One candidate rang up to ask what the keyboard tests would be and, when told, withdrew her application. As an entirely separate comment I can say that, of the 50 or so applicants, the clear majority were female and those who made it to the short-list were entirely female. The lady we appointed was a first study flute player, a second study pianist with a 2:1 from a very decent red-brick University.
It doesn't surprise me at all that Oxbridge colleges are despairing of the standard of playing. Last year I acted as External Examiner to a well known University Music Department. I was shocked by the overall level of performance!
I think I had not better say anymore!