Aeron Glyn Preston
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Posts posted by Aeron Glyn Preston
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You need to be very careful with this sort of thinking, because those of us who knew many of the pre-classical period, English romantic organs, were constantly frustrated by the almost useless collection of whistles and Clarionets (sic) which were known as "Choir Organs."
Even the very large Gray & Davison instrument, complete with a huge primary and secondary Great chorus, (called Front and Back Great), was conidered to be totally ineffective in the hall. An organ like that could not be favourably compared to almost carrying the name Schnitger, (whether Arp or Frans Cassper).
I risk my life and my reputation in suggesting that, without the German influence, William Hill would have achieved little, but he absorbed the philosophy of Mendelssohn's friend, Dr Gauntlett, and brought a useful evolution to the British organ.
A better starting point would be the very modified Snetzler sound, which Thomas Hill achieved absolutely brilliantly at Beverley Minster, re-using most of the 18th century pipework and adding to it. Nevertheless, even there, the Choir organ was relatively weak, but at least it blended well.
It really comes down to the voicer's art, because a stop-list, like a shopping-list, is based on a certain need and desire, and only a good chef can make the produce taste good. Like a bad chef, a bad voicer can destroy anything.
Another, more modern model, can be found at St George's Chapel, Windsor; truly one of the best re-builds in the UK, with a very clever tonal design by the late Sidney Campbell.
Englishness yes, but what we do not want is a return to the weak and ineffective Choir Organs of so many 19th century instruments.
MM
Yes, English Romantic choir organs were inadequate, but my point was that there is a model to strengthen them into a proper "Chaire" division while keeping them in an English style. The Windsor and Beverley choir organs were pretty much exactly what I had in mind!
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I would suggest that many recent (ie 90's onwards) instruments will be equipped with an excellent and bold secondary chorus on the positive. A good example will have a principal at 4' and 2', but sometimes even an 8' principal on a large enough instrument. This chorus should balance the Great but be lighter and brighter in character. Increasingly more than one 8' is included eg a gamba. Have a look at the spec of St. Giles Cathedral Edinburgh - and better still hear it! It's an excellent Ruck positive division.
Before the swell became the second manual on English instruments, didn't the Chaire organ on larger English instruments not have such a principal chorus to mixture? Even a small Schnitger such as this has a set of principals on the secondary division. Could not an adaptation of the old English-style chaire organs be a better approach for adapting English Romantic organs than the "toy positivs" described earlier? In addition, however good the St Giles spec. is, I wouldn't have thought a German-style positiv division, even with a full set of principals, would be ideal for an instrument otherwise conceived in an English style. Weren't Gray and Davison, as well as Hill, still making Choir divisions of the old kind well into the middle of the 19C?
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Even within the culture of the neo-baroque organ there are different approaches. One leans towards French colour, and the other towards tonal building blocks and the more ripieno style.
A lot of 1960's instruments would have 8ft Flute, 4ft Principal, 4ft Flute, then Nazard, Blockflute and Tierce as a French flute melange, often with an acidic Krummhorn and a shrieking Cymbal. It usually doesn't work too well for Bach.
The organ I play, has an unenclosed 4 stop Positiv, with just flutes at 8ft and 4ft, with a single 2dt Principal and a very bright Quint at 1.1/3, which goes all the way to the top note. It blends with the rest of the organ, but it is very bold. Coupling the full Positiv to the Great more or less doubles the power of the instrument. Personally, I would gladly ditch the Quint and replace it with a slightly more useful 2ft Flute, even if that would result in a slight drop in brilliance with the full organ drawn. (The acoustic is so good, it can carry the top end brilliance without detrement).
I suppose if one wanted a Positiv to do everything, the 4ft AND 2ft Pricipals would be required, but wouldn't have to be drawn at the same time.
I just wish, that when the neo-baroque was being touted, they hadn't studied the fuller flute tones and less savage upperwork of the Netherlands masters. They always seem so musical by way of comparison, but then, they do have the acoustics to match the style.
MM
Thank you! So is the basic gist of modern "positifs" tending more towards a collection of Baroque-style solo voices (including octave and mutation flutes), rather than a secondary principal chorus (like the old English "chaire" organs)? Hence the lack of a full complement of principal ranks, as I was questioning?
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Yes, in this country. However, Werkprinzip = the ideal to which a lot of these things were made = Principals at 16 on ped, 8 on HW, 4 on OW, 2 on Pos. Fractions correspondingly higher as well - frequently mutations at 5 1/3 and 3 1/5 on the HW, Nazard pitch on OW, Larigot/Tierce pitch on Pos.
That's fair enough, but that doesn't quite answer the question - can a positif chorus with a mixture of flutes and principals at higher pitches sound coherent? I'm sure I've seen a few specs where on the positif there'd be a principal at either 4' or 2', but not both, plus a mixture, whereas I'd expect Principal 4' + Fifteenth 2' before having a mixture.
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I have wanted to ask a question about Neo-Baroque positifs. I'm sure I've seen several specifications with such divisions, whether as part of a Neo-Baroque organ or tacked onto 19C instruments. Why do so many either lack a 4' Principal or a Fifteenth? I've often seen a Gemshorn as the strongest 4' flue, or something similar at 2'. Can combinations such as the following really work as coherent choruses? (8' Chimney Flute/SD, 4' Principal, 2' Gemshorn, Cymbel;
8' Chimney Flute/SD, 4' Gemshorn, 2' Fifteenth, Cymbel.) I see that in smaller positif divisions the 8' would be stopped or half-stopped, but having a mix of flutes and principals higher up in the pitch spectrum seems rather odd to me. Wouldn't the choir/"chaire" divisions of older English organs always have had at least a principal at 4', then also a fifteenth if a 2' was also called for?
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Quite right. You only have to hear Parry's "straight" orchestration to appreciate the skill (and thrill) of the Elgar orchestration.
Too much for me - sorry. I don't care if it is Elgar's.
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I cannot believe that the ROYAL Academy of Music is considering purchasing a new organ from abroad.
Are you telling me that there is not one English organ builder who could not have provided a suitable instrument for the Academy ?
I think it is disgraceful that we cannot support our own manufacturing industry, and I hope that at least the English companies were asked to quote for the new instrument.
The same thing has happened with the car industry which is now controlled from abroad.
Is anyone else indignant about the RAM policy of not supporting the UK companies ?
Colin Richell.
It does at the least seem rather strange...
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I'm sorry to have to say this, but I thought the accretions to Jerusalem were unbearably cheesy, particularly the violin figurations towards the start of the second verse. Shame we didn't hear more of the organ too. I'm glad that plenty of Parry got an outing though!
A much under-rated composer IMHO. -
As we say in Wales,
Pasg Hapus i bawb!
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Hi
Look at Clive Shropshire, this organ is superb for what it is and was indentical to the Willis on wheels in St Pauls before the rebuild by our hosts.
I suspect NPOR are wrong with the organ in Montgomery as the Harmonic Flute would be 4 and not 8 as stated.
Barrie
Thanks for pointing me towards Clive.
NPOR is wrong - I played the organ two nights ago!
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Hi
Sorry - NPOR editors (including me) don't normally pick up info from this site - please send an e-mail to the NPOR office (after Easter now - the e-mail system seems to be working OK, but the mail box could overflow as there's no-one around to deal with things until next week). this means it's easier to keep track of the source of information.
Thanks
Every Blessing
Tony
No problem!
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Willis...
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A couple of days ago, I had the privilege of playing this organ, which used to belong to William Gladstone. The church in which it lives is really in the back of beyond - deep in the Welsh-speaking rural heartland of Montgomeryshire (as was) - but organ and church are kept well maintained by a small but dedicated congregation. What a fantastic instrument it is! It just shows that the best organ builders can design tonally coherent instruments whatever their size. Willis's larger organs are justly famous, but which of his small organs deserve more attention?
P. S. To any editors of the NPOR on this forum, the Harmonic Flute on this organ should be at 4' pitch.
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This works exceptionally well.
It looks great! It is a shame the borrowed stops are "either/or" though. I can certainly think of situations where I'd like to have the 4' Flute available on both. I suppose that can be worked around.
Here's the Goetze and Gwynn example which I mentioned before:-
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What would people think of a scheme where a choir division (in the old English sense, with a secondary principal chorus) was borrowed almost entirely from the Great? Did Goetze and Gwynn not do something along those lines? How easy is it to do in terms of blend, etc.? I can imagine it would be a great idea for small parish churches - a way of getting a pipe organ, with a reduced number of pipes, but no extension!
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Sorry to drag up an old topic, but I'd be very interested to know of some multum-in-parvo schemes designed by Bernard Edmonds. I'd like to understand what his perspective was on what parish churches really needed, given that he was a priest. Could anybody please inform me of some, with NPOR links if possible?
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Anybody?
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Sorry to drag up an old topic, but I'd be very interested to know of some multum-in-parvo schemes designed by Bernard Edmonds. I'd like to understand what his perspective was on what parish churches really needed, given that he was a priest. Could anybody please inform me of some, with NPOR links if possible?
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The fine 1911 Hill organ at Shrewsbury Abbey is one hundred years old this year and definitely feeling its age. It just about survived the Christmas services, but the combination of a century of Abbey flooding, heating problems, lack of humidity (when the Abbey isn't flooded!), grime and virtually no maintenance over the past hundred years means that it's come to the end of its working life. And so a major project is planned to restore this wonderful instrument back into full health. In addition, since when it was originally installed a number of stops were "prepared for" but never actually installed, this is a once-in-a-generation opportunity to complete the instrument to its designer's dream, whilst making subtle improvements to later additions that on balance weren't very successful.
Sounds wonderful! It is a fine beast, but definitely showing its age.
The vision is for to develop the Abbey as a centre of musical excellence, and it would be useful both for teaching and to allow playback of the organ whilst the many tourists who visit the Abbey are looking round. Hopefully once this scheme is realised the Abbey will once again be the proud custodians of a magnificent organ capable of leading the next few generations of musicians and worshippers in this glorious 900 year old building.I know the former Director of Music at the Abbey, who felt that the choir and organ were not given the respect they deserved. Have things suddenly changed?
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Thank you Pierre and MM. I guess I've just been unfortunate to have played organs with bad tierce mixtures.
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Can anyone explain to me why tierce mixtures were so popular in British organs pre-1850? The beauty of the French plein-jeu makes me question the need for tierces in the chorus. I suppose they're better without equal temperament, but I personally am not enamoured of tierces in the principal chorus. The "jeu de tierce" of the French tradition I do find beautiful, however, but it is a different thing altogether.
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This is an interesting example of a similar idea, where the bottom octave of the pedal Bourdon is available on the bottom octave of the swell manual. Presumably the Sw-Gt coupler would have been handy in this case, so the bass to a hymn, for example, could be played on the Great alone.
http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi...ec_index=D00050
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Isn't the Grand Cornet (on the Grand-Orgue) on the classical French organ supposed to support the trebles in the Grand Jeu?
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I believe it is going to a church in Gloucestershire.
Excellent! Very glad it has found a home.
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I wasn't going to post in this topic, mostly because I know of so many instruments that are 'under threat'.
However, one has very recently appeared on the IBO Redundant Organs List that both thoroughly deserves and needs a good new home. It is at St.John's Bollington, Cheshire. Link:
http://www.ibo.co.uk/IBO2005/services/redu...amp;Submit=View
This may appear to be a mere run-of-the-mill two-manual Victorian tracker, with a slightly curious stoplist but no, I assure you, this is a historic musical instrument of the highest quality. Renn's pipework is simply wonderful, as good as anything made that century, and his Stopped Diapasons are IMHO quite literally the best ever made. Anyone who wanted a first-rate organ to replace something inferior should look at this instrument very seriously. Worryingly, the IBO page notes that it must be removed very soon. I am always on the lookout for instruments to adopt because I have an informal list (of sorts) of those who want them.. nobody on my list has adequate room for this, but please, folks, please all take a look. If you like it, I hope for your sake that you are not looking on behalf of a CofE church because current progress of several faculties that know of seems so slow that by the time you have permission to rescue it may well have gone. At all costs it must not be scrapped!!
The cost of removing this and rebuilding this in a new home, together with a clean and overhaul at the same time might not to come to not much more more than an 'off the peg' two manual toaster and the difference in musical quality and visual splendour would be off the chart!
This instrument is the big brother of the Samuel Renn at St.Philip's Salford, which (restored by our kind host's father) bids fair to be one of the half dozen finest two-manual organs in the UK. I speak not in terms of stoplist or accessories - be honest, these are kids stuff - I speak of its Voice and build quality.
I see that this organ has been removed from the IBO list - any news on where it has gone?
A much under-rated composer IMHO.
Mutations
in Nuts and bolts
Posted
They say there's nothing new under the sun...
http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi...ec_index=R01937