MusoMusing
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Posts posted by MusoMusing
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12 hours ago, John Robinson said:
It sounds to me that polyphones can be very useful stops and have some distinct advantages over flues and reeds.
Perhaps they should be more widely used. Perhaps they already are, as you often wouldn't know from the name alone.
It always happens.....everyone gets confused about what is what and what it does.
Just for the record:-
When people refer to "Polyphones", they are often referring to "bi-phonic basses" , where six stopped pipes (producing two notes each) play the full 12 notes of the 32ft Octave. They work by having a tube attached at to the pipe, closed off by a valve arrangement. When the valve opens, the additional volume of the pipe + tube produces a lower note. So bottom C is the lowest bi-phonic pipe with the valve open, and bottom C# is the same pipe sounding with the valve closed and isolating the additional volume created by the attached tube.
The Polyphone proper, is a single large pipe; often laid horizontally, like a large coffin. The "pipe" has one very large mouth, and usually produces just 8 notes, using valves to increase/decrease the speaking length of the pipe in what is a complex internal labyrinth. The principle is not unrelated to the Haskell Bass....the "pipe within a pipe" idea. The usual range is low EEEE to CCC (16ft)....anything lower requiring a much larger pipe. They are usually about 8ft in length, and there is a picture of one at the following link:- https://www.theladyorganist.com/rco-summer-course-name-pipe/
The Diaphone is a bit like a reed pipe, but usually fatter and squatter....often mitred and folded. The principle of operation is not far removed from a conventional reed, except that the reed is replaced with a sprung valve, which oscillates against a hole .....a bit like a rapidly oscillating version of a Saxophone or Clarinet valve.
MM -
20 minutes ago, Colin Pykett said:
I believe the Compton diaphone at Christchurch Priory was retained at the 1999 Nicholson rebuild. I played it at that time, and if my recollection is correct it survived as the 16 foot Contra Bass on the Nave pedal division. It certainly was not of the 'foghorn' variety, having a quiet grip and definition which many flue registers at that pitch could do well to imitate. ..... etc
Yes, and that's the big difference between Compton and the rest. His mastery of the potential "beast" being nothing short of oustanding, while others just wanted to crush rocks.
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I'm not aware of anyone making Diaphones anymore; possibly because they are quite complicated and expensive to make. The trouble is, in pursuit of the "rock crushing" bass, they got a bad name in the era 1890-1940 or so, but there are many examples of quite subtle Diaphones, of which Wakefield is one, and as Barry points out, Holy Trinity Hull is a second example. (I wasn't aware of it when I first played that organ, but I must have used it).
People react to Diaphones in different ways. This is my favourite:- -
As a footnote, the most common Diaphones were of Diapason quality, but potentially much louder. They usually morphed back to open flue pipes as the notes ascended.
The use of a Diaphone at Wakefield may well have been Compton's reacting to the acoustic. Although a fairly resonant building, sound does not travel well from the Chancel to the Nave; especially bass notes, and the best place to hear the organ is actually in the chancel, where it sounds immense.
In conclusion, I think it may be said that the majority of Compton diaphones are somewhere between Open Wood and Open Diapason in tonal quality, and unless someone mentioned it, most people wouldn't know that a diaphone was installed. The huge advantage of a Diaphonic Bass is the fact that the resonators can be folded with relative impunity and without loss of quality, thus making them suitable for restricted spaces. That's why they found their way into cinema organs, where space was usually at a premium.
Not to anticipate anything too much, but what John Compton had to say about Diaphones is just amazing.......that man really knew his craft, and the fine detail is astonishing.
MM -
42 minutes ago, John Robinson said:
Thank you very much for that, not only for the information about the St Mary organ, but also for other of his informative articles I was unaware of.
I'd still be very interested to hear that diaphone as I can honestly say that I have never actually heard one, at least in 'real life'! I'd hazard a guess that a diaphone would sound rather different from a reed, bearing in mind that it uses a beating valve that is either 'open' or 'shut' rather than a reed which, I assume, opens and closes gradually. I imagine that would be something along the lines of a square-wave compared to a sine-wave?
Perhaps, if I discover a forthcoming recital, I might take the trouble to travel there - assuming, of course, that the diaphone would actually be used!
Have you never been to Wakefield Cathedral? The 16ft Contra Bass is Diaphonic, but ever so civilised and un-reed like. In my forthcoming tome about John Compton, there is included a whole section on Diaphones, and how John Compton utterly mastered their production and voicing. I was playing the organ(s) at Southampton Guildhall 18 months or so ago, which has both a 32ft Diaphonic Diapason bass and a 32ft Posaune. The Posaune is absolutely superb.....not over loud.....very high quality, top drawer voicing, as one might expect. By contrast, the 32ft Diaphone is monumental; producing a flood of sound which can actually be felt in the rib-cage area.
Incidentally, wind-pressure variance has little or no effect on tuning when it comes to Diaphones, and when Hope-Jones used them at Worcester (still buried inside the organ, unused?) they came with variable volume....lighter pressure for pp and highest pressure for "bloody Nora!".
I shall dig out a You Tube extract and edit the link in when I've finished writing. It is probably the best example of just how massive a 32ft Diaphone can sound, even in a big space.
MM
PS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_npr5vxqVA -
6 hours ago, S_L said:
Are you sure about that? I heard it - once - but it is a long tome ago!!
I think there is very little Hope-Jones left. All of the choir, save the Tuba, is from the 1935 Hill, Norman & Beard rebuild and the Great and Swell have additions from 1905 and 1935. I think, if I remember rightly, it has had a rebuild reasonably recently with all of Hope-Jones electrics being removed and put 'on display'. The console is, broadly speaking, Hope-Jones but the stop keys are not the original ones!
I think that the church has seen some re-ordering also - and, very slightly I'm under the impression, along the lines of St. Michael-le-Belfry in York!
…………………. but it is in beautiful part of the world!!!
Many moons (ions?) ago, I played the Ambleside organ, and I was pleasantly surprised. It had some lovely individual registers, and if one stuck to pretty tunes and string/flute accompaniment, it delivered what it was intended to deliver. The Norman & Beard additions were entirely in keeping, with the exception of a Nazard 2.2/3ft, which at a trise, converted the otherwise romantic Choir into a Neo-Baroque version.
It's a pity about the original electrics, but they would have been very expensive to refurbish I expect, and at least they've kept the bits and pieces for future generations to ponder over.
Far from a poor organ, it is nevertheless not one I would wish to spend the rest of my days with.
MM -
Every self-respecting organist knows the saying, that ......."churches are there to keep the organs dry."
MM
PS: Does anyone know the source of that quote?
PPS: I was wrong about Denman working for Hill. I think it was the York organ-builder Ward, that I was thinking about. I seem to recall that Ward was Hill's foreman when he did York Minster. -
The last (and just about the first) time I went to that church, I had been dragged to a charismatic free-for-all, where people babbled like animals, threw their arms in the air (quite competitively, I thought) and screeched "Jesus" without the slightest provocation or need. After half-an-hour of this, I stumbled past the Jesus freaks, left the church and went to a local pub for a pint. (The one opposite the west door of the Minster)
This is their mission statement:-Our vision for the project is to renew and enhance the historic Church building of St Michael le Belfrey in order to inspire and enable 21st century worship and mission, to meet the needs of the people we serve and assist God's plan to transform the North of England from the heart of Yorkshire.
The mission for the building of St Michael le Belfrey is to provide a significant and attractive resource facility for engaging and welcoming people into the family of God, realising our strategic emphases of making disciples, nurturing disciples, developing leaders and planting churches.
This requires creating a space which provides an open, welcoming, accessible and warm Church environment, with a flexible interior arrangement while remaining faithful to our heritage. The reordering will seek to embrace the use of current technology to its fullest, while at the same time preserving the most significant historical and architectural aspects of the building.
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Quite clearly, the organ has no historic value whatsoever, but hey ho, that's Britain to-day!
Denman, I think, worked for Hill in his earlier years, but I've always been interested in the York organ, which during the past 55 years, I've never heard played.
At least the organ will go somewhere where it will be appreciated.
MM -
Clearly, they have more organs than necessary.
If this is the future, I'm going back to strict werkprinzip and Werkmeister II.......the organ equivalent to the Green Party.
MM
PS: It'll never catch on! -
8 hours ago, Rowland Wateridge said:
I have just looked at the pipework analysis. Am I being dense, or is this seemingly huge organ really a vast extension organ with just 1,645 pipes (plus percussions)? MM to the rescue, please.
I allowed ten minutes of my life to look at the specification. It is indeed a quite modest extension organ, and actually a great deal smaller than the lost Compton at Wolverhampton, at Downside, Southampton, St Brides, the Odeon Leicester Square and many, many others.
6 manuals is just an absurdity for so few pipes, and if that translates into (61 X 6) + 32 = 398, it means that there are just 4.1 pipes per available note.
Horror of horrors! I note that the Principal "chorus" includes consecutive octave extensions, resulting in the missing note syndrome. The further thought occurs, that by setting up the combinations to play different pitches, it would be possible to play a harmonised melody just by using the sequencer and holding a single note!!!!!!!!!!!!
John Compton would have loved it, for all the wrong reasons, but just because it IS possible using computers, doesn't mean that it has the slightest musical credibility.
I shan't be booking an air ticket anytime soon!
MM -
3 hours ago, Contrabombarde said:
The full specification is at
https://www.klais.de/_klais/bilder/pdf/Malmoe_Pipework.pdf
As for the buttons,
"The individually programmable control for each pipe of the choir organ offers 'unheard-of' possibilities. Here is a tiny selection:
- adjustable delay and hold time, f.e. for echo effects or diminuendo or crescendo by stop change while holding a key
- any chord formation from different sounds and pitches to each key (chorus effect, mixture setter)
- iridescent sounds through rapid change of the controlled colours while holding a key
- In addition, there are the possibilities offered by an individual and settable wind control of all chest levels (one unenclosed and two enclosed under separate expression."
Why do I keep contemplating "Artificial Intelligence"?
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On 09/06/2019 at 16:40, innate said:
It must be easier to tune a “pure” ratio than any equal-tempered interval unless you are using electronic tuning aides in which case any interval will be as easy to tune as any other, all other things being equal!
Where is John Compton when you need him?
Bournemouth Pavilion Theatre mixture compositions:-
Cornet 11rks: 5.8.10.12.14.15.16.17.18.19.20
Plein Jeu 9rks: 12.15.17.19.21.22.23.24.25
MM -
Friends who have friends! Oh yes!
My first sortie to the Netherlands, with a Netherlands friend acting as host, got me onto the following organs in just ten days:-
Rotterdam, St Laurens
Rotterdam, Der Doelen
Amsterdam, Oudekerk
Groningen, Martinikerk
Groningen, Aa KerkAn old Fr Smith organ somewhere. I forget the name. The heaviest action I have ever encountered.
Haarlem, Concertegbouw
Haarlem, St Bavo RC cathedralHaarlem, St Bavo
The last one involved being pushed onto a train, and told to "Report to the church office" at St Lauren's, Alkmaar
The day after, a new Ahrend organ somewhere on the outskirts of Amsterdam.
Add the Rijksmuseum, the Frans Hals museum, the street organs......good coffee........I didn't even want to return to Britain!!A trip of a lifetime for an organist!
MM
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You could arrange Haarlem next time.....organs for every occasion/style/period.....Muller (of course) Cavaille-Coll, Cavaille Coll sound-a-like by Adema at the RC cathedral.
If you're a Schnitger freak.....Groningen!You need registrands....the social alternative to thumb-pistons. If you snarl at them and threaten them with sharp, pointed sticks, they become fully programmable.
MM -
This is wonderful news, when the destruction of the organ at Wolverhampton deprived us of one of the best Compton organs of all earlier this year.
St Bride's is a particularly fine example of a late Compton (post JC era) under the direction of James Taylor, who never really got to enjoy the organ for very long prior to his untimely death (Easter 1958) as Assistant Organist to Dr Gordon Reynolds.
To misquote John Compton, "A penny whistle would sound wonderful in an acoustic like that."
MM -
Please don't feel you're hi-jacking anything Colin. It's interesting to read how people research things and arrive at "facts"......as best we can.
Re: Hope-Jones, his tonal ambitions were a strange phase, but they concurred with the thoughts of many "great and good" musicians, and there's quite a bit about it in my tome, under the heading "Organists at War". Being honest, the Hope-Jones concept could never have produced a conventional organ, and many of the tones stand-apart, but when it developed into the theatre organ, it made sense. That said, Ocean Grove is a fascinating instrument.
My impression is, that H-J was handicapped by the limitations of battery technology and the fact that the National Grid was far into the future, and lecky supplies were generated on an ad hoc basis.
Correlation has been the ongoing nightmare with the Compton tome, because not a lot was ever written down. It has meant that every single fact has had to be correlated by commentators, by personal recollection, by hard physical examples; sometimes from external sources, which in this case, has embraced mechanical, electrical, electronic, genealogical, historical records, patents, military history, war records, local history, musical journals and even the history of trainer aircraft for the RAF. I'll be quite honest....if I had known the size of the task, I would never have started, but now that it is 99.5% finished, my hope is that it will stand, not just as an organ buffs delight, but a unique history which places everything Compton and his team did, into social, musical and technological context.
MM -
18 hours ago, Zimbelstern said:
It seems to be possible these days to have single copies of your book printed in hardback or paperback form from your digital file at a surprisingly reasonable price. Many books ordered online these days are dealt with in this way in any case. There are companies on the internet that will do this for you. Once your book is ready for publication, you could ask people who want a hard copy to pay upfront for the book and postage and packing, then, when you have received payment, order the book and send it to them.
Yes, I've come across this already, but I have yet to investigate it fully. I know how Tony feels about hard copy books, but that brings certain limitations re: photos/colour. However, the age of computerised printing really is a modern miracle. I recall wandering around the Polestar printing works in Sheffield (no longer there, like steel!) It was all shut down and silent, and then a courier arrived with a case. Not long after, the whole plant burst into life, and within maybe 2 hours, half a million copies of TV times were being loaded. The printing presses were Italian, I seem to recall, and cost many millions.
Long gone are the days of letter-press printing and offset machines, where they had to etch masters.
I'm sure I will discover all the pros and cons when I get around to it all.
Tony's point about inaccurate books is an occupational research hazard.....I've just corrected certain things in the Compton tome about Charles Brindley (Brindley & Foster Ltd) and his working relationship to Edmund Schulze, thanks to more recent and more accurate research. Apparently, Brindley never went to Germany, while Schulze never made a single metal pipe to call his own.....he didn't even have a metal shop). Myths and legends can take on a life of their own! After Doncaster, Brindley's (under the title Violette) made all the metal pipes for Schulze, and Charles Brindley did some of the voicing.I'd love to know if Compton did any of the voicing for Pietermaritzburg Town Hall in S Africa, which co-incides with Compton's time with Brindley's. It was their magnum opus, and a wonderful sound.
We plough on!
MMPS: One of the "tricks" some print on demand companies get up to, is charging as much for postage and packing as the cost of the books they print. Others require that you buy their software package etc. Then there are exclusive contracts, where the printer is exclusive to a particular book. That means that a writer cannot release his work elsewhere on a non-commissioned basis; at least without being heavily penalised. It's a bit of a swamp!
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I think that when it comes to making money, it was always a dead duck. Instead, it's been a hobby which has absorbed an immense amount of time; possibly because there is more written about Hope-Jones than there has been about Compton and his work. Interestingly, however, if one strings together everything that John Compton wrote about his own work, that would create a quite substantial booklet; so a very good source of information about him, as well as his philosophical /musical starting point.
Nowadays, we can get things printed at very low cost, but with minimal returns. Having looked at the hard-print option, I just think it would be very expensive and rather pointless. The better way is to publish electronically these days; especially with something so specialised and, frankly, unfashionable.
I've never been one to rush after qualifications of any type; though I did manage a rather miserable degree in music at Hull Uni. It never held me back, either as a business consultant or as a musIcian, but I suppose I shall have to include Hull Uni, because there are only about three epicentres of Compton's work.....London, Southampton and Kingston-upon-Hull. (In any event, after 30 years, I discovered that I had inadvertently stolen a library book , so by now, I must owe them millions in fines! )
Thank you for the encouragement. I've more or less got the layout right, and the index went better than anticipated. One word of warning though.....never....and I mean NEVER....highlight the letters 'raf' when you mean RAF. The first attempt at an index yielded 324 entries under 'raf', which I've now cut back to 7 !! 😀
Now to work out how to format things, as well as set things up for electronic publication. The learning curve continues.........
MM -
Thanks to Barry and Rowland for the additional information. I was aware of the minor damage to Trinity church, and of course, I have a photograph of the City Hall bomb damage. However, with a subject as big as Compton, and after almost 58,000 words, I think I've covered enough. Things have to be left out I'm afraid, but I'm sure that if I ploughed on for a further ten years, I might be able to cover a quarter of the subject!!!
I'm making progress with the indexing (etc) and proof-reading, as well as the final layout, but the book is essentially finished in all but detail.
I'd hazard a guess that as many as 300 people have contributed to the pool of knowledge, and without whom it would have been an impossible task. The starting point was always going to be Laurence Elvin's coverage, but without knowing it, he left a vast amount to be uncovered; not least of which were the cinema organs, hybrid organs, space-heaters, Electrones, Melotones, the folding caravan and the light consoles.I must have been down a thousand cul-de-sacs and then made incredible discoveries just rooting around in odd places.
The main thing is, the tome has been written in the nick of time, because so many people have passed away, having provided important details and having made my chosen task easier. It is, after all, over 60 years since JC died in his early 80's, and the story began 143 years ago! That's a very big chunk of history!
MM
PS: There's a curious irony. I think about 75% of the knowledge has been contributed by cinema organ buffs, who spend endless hours tinkering with rescued organs.
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It's amazing that both the City Hall and Trinity Church survived two world wars. It must have been bad during the WWII air-raids, judging by the "bomb-maps" which can be studied on-line. I do know that Norman Strafford (the O & C at Trinity) complimented Compton's on the fact that the organ remained playable in spite of a terrible shaking during the air-raids.
MM -
It's sometimes a remarkably small world. I played around with offset printing at work, when I was about 15, and those early skills of layout and presentation have proved useful.
I'm not sure which avenue to go down. The organ is quite photogenic, and full colour pictures are wonderful, but they also increase the expense of print. On the other hand, the digital book format has no colour barriers, so to speak. At A5 size (about the same page dimensions as Elvin's "The Harrison Story") the main text with photographs runs to about 220 pages, on top of which will be a Forward, a Table of Contents, an alphabetical index and acknowledgements, which could end up being 230 + pages in total. The word count is currently 57,000 words, so it is reasonably substantial. The big nightmare in writing it, has not been just restricted to a lack of a readily available pool of information, but the sheer diversity of Compton's activities. Organs are in there somewhere, but the story also refers to Link trainer aircraft, making aircraft during the war, several fires, making space-heaters, developing electronic organs, making juke boxes, theatre lighting consoles, gramophone speed controls etc etc. (I missed out the "Jimmy" Taylor design for a car automatic gearbox!)
MM
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4 hours ago, Barry Oakley said:
I'm wondering what software you are using, Colin?
I'm working with Open Office, which seems to do most things quite well. Somewhere, I have Microsoft Word on a disc, but I don't see a vast difference in user friendliness/hostility or outright war!
I'm getting to grips with creating an index, which is quite tricky if you've never used them before; which I haven't. I'm getting there slowly, but I still haven't mastered it. There's plenty of information on-line, so I should be able to work it out, but it's a terribly boring job.
One thing I was going to ask Barry. Do you have the rights to the splendid photograph of the Hull Minster organ case? If so, could I include it by permission? On the subject of photographs, did you ever see the miraculous escape the Parish Church (Minster) had in WWII, during a Zepplin attack?
MM
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WARNING!
If you think music is complicated, don't get involved with print layout and formatting. I never knew just how much was involved. It really is a vast subject.
I am getting to grips with it all, fortunately.
MM
St Michael-le-Belfry, York
in The Organ
Posted
You're both right and wrong Barry. The original Anneessens instrument never had a 32ft flue......just a mere 32ft reed of vast scale. Compton indeed added a Polyphone, which he called Soubasse 32ft, while Nicholson's added a "proper" 32ft Open but also retained the Compton Polyphone, which if I recall from a mere 55 years ago while working for Laycock & Bannister, is the genuine article, and not a collection of bi-phonic pipes.
You mention Compton additions......not very many actually. The main contribution was to make the organ brighter, because Abbott & Smith had tried to make it sound like an English organ, when it was actually a very reed dominated continental sound.
However, you'd think someone would mention that Compton installed the Tuba, which was always impressive.
The biggest contribution Compton made, was increasing the scope and size of the Choir Organ, which grew to a department of 22 stops!
Don't quote me on this, because I've only been inside the instrument a couple of times, but my gut feeling is, that Compton were able to use extension for the Choir Organ, because the Choir Organ shared the same colossal windchest with the Great Organ, and was therefore not of the slider-chest type. (That windchest was the largest in Europe, and is stored against the chamber wall inside the organ as a museum piece).
When.....I hesitate to say "we"......rebuilt the beast, lots of new (Rogers of Leeds), very small pipes went into the instrument; roughly voiced and badly regulated, all paid for by Mrs Coulthurst, a local Yorkshire philanthropist. The Choir Organ became a Positive division. The end result was Anneesens/Compton and a lot of screeching new upperwork.
Enter, at this point, a quirk of fate, when the heating system flue split open, and filled church and organ with paraffin fumes. Insurance to the rescue, and new cleaning work by Laycock & Bannister; by which time the company had been taken over by Nicholson's and Dennis Thurlow. A lot of the newer pipes were tamed, voiced properly and regulated, and a much better organ emerged.
The later Nicholson re-build was radical, but long overdue, but there are still recognisable bits of Anneesens, Compton, Laycock & Bannister, early Nicholson and later Nicholson.
It now sounds wonderful, I'm happy to suggest!
MM
It's quite a complicated path to follow, but at least it's all worked out well in the end