carrick
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Posts posted by carrick
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The trouble is, the judges know almost nothing about almost anything outside pop-music.
There was a memorable moment when the great Simon Cowell asked what the "ridiculous" accompaniment was all about on the piano.
It was actually the way Schumann wrote it.
MM
Hence why Jean is playing herself down. Still I was surprised that Simon said he liked Jean, this year is the first time a piano act has gotten into the show, and its the first time an organist has made an appearance. Jeans playing to the publics level and they love it, but shes going to have to do something different on Saturday. By then if I was her, I wouldnt care if I won or not. She`s got to the final, so now she should show herself off and give one of her concert performances!
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So returning to Jean's second performance, I just wish she had chosen something outside 1950's music and appealed to mums and dads, because it isn't kids who vote, by and large.
MM
She was playing crocodile rock, which Elton John brought out 30 years ago? I think for the final she is going to have to show off the organ (not just use the piano voices) and do some of her big band stuff with a Jive. She needs to make sure people know she is playing with her feet (im annoyed that the judges havent caught on that she is playing with her feet) as well as her hands. Maybe face them at a different angle? Or have her hands and feet shown on screens, at least people will know, and she will still have to do all that and keep smiling and winking and keeping the crowd going.
What also got me about last night was the volume of the rythmns compared to what jean was actually playing. Seems a common thing now to do.
I have noticed too lately that alot of younger people seem to be going for older music. I know a local DJ who does alot of 18th and 21st partys and the likes, and hes told me most of the requests he gets are songs from the 50s, 60s and 70s, and alot of things that have been in the charts recently are new takes on old songs. Ive also noticed an increase in old music being used in adverts.
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Have you got "Oliver?"
Well, well.....Show tunes.....a tiny glimmer of light!
To-day "Oliver"....tomorrow.... "Bach trio-sonatas."
MM
Oliver has bn played to the hilt now.
I dont normally watch britains got talent, but i thought id watch this year to see how Jean got on. She is giving a very dumbed down performance to what she would usually give. Going full on organ with the crowd wouldnt go down so well, but she has people giving some attention to the organ world, which given its current state, cant be a bad thing can it? It might not get thousands of young people playing them, but it may generate an interest to some who get curious and decide to delve into things abit more and see what its all about.
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And there was proof tonight with Jean Martyn on Britains got talent, it is ENTERTAINMENT that matters. There has been a knock on effect with an increase in vewings on organ videos on youtube and website veiwings since Jeans first audition. She has got the public paying attention to the organ. The first person to do so on a mainstream level for YEARS.
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You state that you have worked VERY hard to promote the organ, but fail to say where, when and how. Again, we have no real evidence.
MM
Where?
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It was on an Allen(new), it was in tune, the weather was fine, there were no busses on strike, no power failures, no stink bombs. Even the organist at the church was as disapointed as the concert audience were.
As far as i can see with this forum, its full of people who will see the organ world out, because of their attitudes. CARRY on letting it down and being in the stuck up little bubble your in. Its a shame really, because there ARE people out there who do work VERY hard at bringing the organ to the public, and are succesful at it. But the image of the organ is ruined by the snobbery which i see ALOT of in this group.
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If Carlo reads the comment, I can't imagine he will lose any sleep. Opinions are just that; opinions. Unfortunately, without any further qualification or clout, they are soon forgotten, like ageing pop-stars.
MM
Its not opinion though, it was fact. A whole concert audience (80 people......) got up and walked out by the time Carlo got to the interval!
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Here, Robinson Cleaver, ARCO is enjoying himself. Very clean playing and barely a tremulant in ear-shot. He is seldom referred to nowadays, but he was very good.
http://theatreorgans.com/southerncross/Rad...Sweethearts.wma
It's a great pity that the State Kilburn has now closed. I used to bump into Carlo Curley at some of the concerts, and I think the last time I saw him there, Carol Williams was performing.
MM
MM
Carlo Curley...theres a great organist...................................so great that people just get up and walk out!
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Steady on - that's downright rude! Muso wrote a long, carefully considered and grammatically polished exposition. You may not agree with it - I don't agree with all of it - but he at least took the trouble to be polite and literate.
Theres nothing rude, I said it as it is.
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I expect the dinosaurs thought they would inherit the Earth.
Your audience will be gone within the next decade.
MM
PS: I know someone who has a second-hand Stylophone for those who want to keep tunes simple.
Yes, looks like it when the organ world is filled with SNOBBERY like yourself.
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Your missing my point here. NO MATTER HOW MUSICAL OR UNMUSICAL the organist is, it is the popularity that counts. If it is NOT popular, it will die off. The Blackpool style in THIS country is most popular. Im going to give up now, its like trying to talk to a brick wall. Brian Rodwell?? Takes half an hour to work out what he was playing.
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Oh yes, when i mention 1,200,000 per year hearing Dixon LIVE in person, dont forget to add it up over 40 years (48,000,000 LIVE at the tower), then the ten year sell out concert tour, weekly broadcasts around the world, plus his recordings which are still being heard today. Wether or not you think his playing was sloppy, unmusical (which is claptrap), the PUBLIC were obviously VERY interested in him and he was and is known all round the world, ALOT of people know of him. It is STILL the Blackpool style organists today who pack venues, where as the likes of Simon Gledhill and Richard Hills are lucky to get 150 through the door. This isnt to say they arent good organists, but its what the public want that matters, and bums on seats and rating show what the public want at the end of the day. They want to be entertained, and to take part in the music.
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Fair enough.....but I do play them and I have worked on them.
MM
As do I, with a very successful team.
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You should not assume anything!
In fact, between 1959 and 1962, I heard Reginald Dixon live quite regularly at Blackpool; not least because my uncle was a "Reg" Dixon addict, and dragged me there on a regular basis because I liked the organ. Indeed, my first exposure to the organ was the man himself, so he must have done something to enthuse me at an early age. Later on, I discovered classical organ, and then Brian Rodwell, who was really the doyen of British organists involved in light-music by that time.
I could suggest that "tonal variety" at Blackpool is partly the effect of over-amplification, a big acoustic, a quite small specification, those awful tierce couplers and a bad chamber position over the stage procenium arch; speaking through quite small grills. (13 or 143 ranks, is it?)
That does not compare with the 40+ rank monsters in the USA, which have far more variety of tonal resources.
You mention 1,200,000 people having heard Dixon, but how many survive to-day? This is the problem you have to face as time drags on, and there will be no-one to replace them.
Out of interest, I asked ten local kids and youths, (who thought I was mad), if they had heard of "Reg" Dixon.....score Nil.
Fred Astaire scored one, (little girl who does tap-dancing), Frank Sinatra scored two, ("My grandad liked him, but he died"), Whitney Houston scored 5 and Lady Ga-Ga scored ten. In other words, popular culture has a distinct shelf-life, after which it becomes a niche market. (If it's any consolation, Handel scored one, Mozart scored two and none of them had heard of Beethoven).
More seriously, it is important to realise that every single piece of music played on a theatre organ, (with a few tiny exceptions), is a transcription of something or other, and more to the point, because it is not possible to play anything very close to the original scoring, every piece is also an arrangement. So at the absolute heart of the instrument is the art of arranging; usually from useful piano-score reductions initially. (I have quite a lot of them).
So what do expect from a theatre organist?
If you want the original scoring, go out and buy old 78 rpm shellac. (I've got quite a few of those also).
Even then, you will find that no two readings are the same, and if you take a well known song by Irving Berlin, "There may be trouble ahead" from the film "Top Hat," you will discover a nice Quick Step in the original Astaire movie, and much different tempi and arrangements on re-releases and covers by Ella Fitzgerald, Sinatra and even Robbie Williams a few years ago, when he recorded the American Songbook album called "Swing when you're winning."
So why do you pick on George Wright, who was remarkably close to the original; considering that he was trying to imitate a show orchestra while playing an organ?
Say what you will, but when George Wright wasn't camping it up and wearing women's clothes under a different name, (there is an amusing commercial story here), he was incredibly clever at what he did, and that made him the doyen of the American organists of his generation. In fact, I'll stick my neck out and suggest that even to-day, he is still listened to by rather more than the 1,200,000 who went to hear Reginald Dixon over a forty year period.
Still, you can compare for yourself without my opinion getting in the way:-
- Rhapsody in blue - Reginald Dixon- Rhapsody in Blue -Quentin Macleanhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZeVLCCE2KY...feature=related – Let's face the music and dance - Original version – Fred Astaire
Probably Nat King Colehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiWDIb_nph0...feature=related - Frank Sinatra – Let’s face the music
- George Wright – Let’s face the musicMM
Kids will NOT know what your talking about when it even comes to the word organ. Even with a good description, they dont know what your talking about. The nearest Ive got to them knowing what one is was the description "a big piano thing with loads of keys in a church".
As for Dixon being sloppy btw, there was hardly a mistake in ANYTHING he recorded. How many of the 40+ rank Wurlitzers in the US were built by the Wurlitzer company?!! Not very many, the vast majority of the instruments they built were smaller than 20 ranks!!
The Tower organ is one of the best organs that Wurlitzer ever built. It was there to do a job, to be played for dancing, bright strings, brassy reeds etc, and the Q n T couplers are there for a reason, to CUT through the noise of the dancers (which they did VERY well when used properly!!) It was NEVER amplified to the levels it is now (which isnt needed). It is STILL in its original home doing the same job it was always intended to do. Its obvious to me (and several others who have read whats been said) that you dont have a CLUE what your talking about, because if you did, you wouldnt be saying what you are!!!
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Unfortunatly all concerts on the 1903 Lewis organ at Ayr town Hall have been cancelled until further notice. This is due to a humidifier leaking into the organ. Surprisingly, the humidifier was positioned above the organ.
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i didn't expect to stir up such a hornet's nest, but I still stand by what I said. The only thing I would say, is that Dixon was "on the money" when it came down to what people wanted to hear, and there is no denying his popularity and star status; his name being a household one.
I hope my response was not snobbish, but I think I would lack any sort of musical integrity if I stated anything different to what I did. Dixon was a great entertainer, but not a great artist or arranger by any stretch of the imagination, unless you happen to believe that wrong notes and a sloppy accompaniment are a form of re-arrangement.
I can empathise with the "bums on seats argument" to a point, but only to a point. The statistics may well be real, but then take a look at the average age of theatre organ audiences........65? 70?
There comes a point statistically, when that particular age-group "fall off the shelf," and the same argument can be applied to many organist's associations by the way.
It's not a new problem or even a unique one, and it has already happened to local choirs, brass bands and even churches and chapels.
As for the American slur, that is exactly what it is, because the American organ-scene was and is far more varied than the blanket descriptiopn of "George Wright clones."
Was "Buddy" Cole a George Wright clone, or Dan Bellamy, or Jim Riggs or Walt Strony? Of course they were not and are not, and of to-day's crop of younger organists in America, there are some extremely fine transcription performers such as Jelani Eddington and Lyn Larsen, while Charlie Balogh is taking the technology to new heights, and really stretching the musical possibilities of the instrument.
Knowing Simon Gledhill's dedication, the last thing I would describe him as is a "George Wright clone." Not only does he play a lot of English music such as Billy Meyerl and Candian born (?) Robert Farnham, he tends to avoid some of the American cliches of performing practice. I concede that he does "arrange," but then, so did Sydney Torch for a living, and one couldn't accuse "Friday night is music night" as being lacking in popular appeal.
I don't want to sound churlish, but to suggest that Reggie Dixon made the Wurlitzer organ at Blackpool "sound different," is actually quite amusing. Of course an organ sounds different with Tierce Couplers, and it also sounds permanently out of tune when they are used.
Anyway, each to their own, but I just wonder why both replies failed to include the genius of the late Brian Rodwell (known by theatre oirgan enthusiasts as "the Governer"), the terrific technique of relative youngster Richard Hills and, of course, the greatness of Quentin Maclean during his lifetime, who generated queues of people all around the cinema, just to hear him play.
It wasn't Reggie Dixon who enjoyed pop-star adulation at the cinemas, but the above named gentlemen. Reggie Dixon was fortunate that he found a stable outlet for his somewhat tedious, strict rhythm style....that being a personal opinion, of course.
MM
"I don't want to sound churlish, but to suggest that Reggie Dixon made the Wurlitzer organ at Blackpool "sound different," is actually quite amusing. Of course an organ sounds different with Tierce Couplers, and it also sounds permanently out of tune when they are used" "I hope my response was not snobbish, but I think I would lack any sort of musical integrity if I stated anything different to what I did. Dixon was a great entertainer, but not a great artist or arranger by any stretch of the imagination, unless you happen to believe that wrong notes and a sloppy accompaniment are a form of re-arrangement."
WHAT RUBBISH. You have obviously havent listened to Dixon in his prime. He didnt use quint n teirce (which was used to cut through the noise from the dancers, it was there to do a job, and it did it) that much, not compared to the amount it is used today, he played "simple", clean arrangements with ALOT of off the cuff improvisation. There is more variety of sounds from the Blackpool style than any of the others. You also had the other Blackpool organists, Watson Holmes, Horace Finch, Earnest Broadbent and Ena Baga. His 10 year tour after he left the tower in 1970 was sold out everywhere he went (George Wright also came over, but he didnt manage to fill the theatres, as much of a good organist he was, he couldnt have been so much in the publics taste)
While Dixon was at the Tower, it has been calculated that he would have been heard by at least 1,200,000 people each year (He was at the tower from 1930-1970), put on top of that, world wide broadcasts, T.V appearances, recordings.
I know of one organist who plays in the Blackpool style, and he has had over 300 bookings this year alone (does that not say what people want to hear?!). Alot of societies avoid booking "certain" organists because of attitudes, and the lack of people attending certain organists concerts would cause them to run at a loss.
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Perhaps you work in market research, I don’t know, but they tell me that Lady Ga-Ga and MC Rap is what people want these days. The trouble is, I still have a soft-spot for Ella Fitzgerald, Billy Meyerl, George Gershwin and watching Fred Astaire movies; all largely before my time as entertainment I listen and watch because they were class-acts which transcend time. I could shuffle along to hear 75 year-old Ethyl play the honky-tonk piano in town, but not too often without ear-plugs.
What occurs to me, is the fact that there are two broad ways of playing a theatre organ; either in an artistic way, or in a mass market way. Reginald Dixon very successfully exploited a highly stylised version of the latter, which drew people in their droves; especially those of the war-time generation. I can personally tolerate a bit of it, but as a genre of playing, it is very much the music of a generation which has now largely passed away. After all, the theatre organ was very good substitute for dance bands, and of course, it was dance and big-band music which was the pop music of the day. Tens of thousands of people probably made their way to the Tower Ballroom in Blackpool in its heyday.
As someone who adores a good theatre organ well played, my interest is aroused by the ability of an organist to arrange music in such a way that it can work musically and convincingly, and apart from a very few British organists such as Simon Gledhill, the late Brian Rodwell, Sidney Torch, (the outstanding BBC arranger of his time)and Quentin Maclkean, and the very much alive Richard Hills, (among others), it is the American organists who now largely demonstrate how it should be done.
Reginald Dixon was inaccurate, sloppy, largely devoid of artistic ability and arranging skills....BUT....he knew how to make the rhythm bounce along, just as MC Rappers do to-day. Sadly, the process of dumbing-down is not a new phenomenon, and we are where we are because others thought it vulgar to be better or best.
I don't deny that there is a problem, because so many of the enthusiasts who rescued some of the best theatre organs were war-time generation people, and they liked their Blackpool "bounce." Out of respect to them and what they did, I have always enjoyed watching them enjoy themselves, but times have changed and things move on.
I would love to see the situation which exists to a certain extent in America, where serious classical organists are quite happy to slide onto a theatre organ and delight a crowd with seriously well-played, well arranged music. It is an art which has a serious following and many admirers in the world of music, and light music in particular. That's the BIG difference between us and them. In the UK, I’ve even heard the inverted snobbery of, “Another classical organist trying to be a theatre organist.”
I'm sorry to go on a bit, but I'm quite passionate about this. When I was in America, I was impressed by the quality of light-music; even on the streets As I now watch from a distance, I see a talent like John Williams as a film-composer, and recall people like the late Leroy Anderson......even the superb arrangements of the great Motown generation of black musicians such as Quincy Jones. (Think, among other things, of Michael Jackson's greatest hits and ballads......quite extraordinary). In America, here is a willingness to embrace and recognise ALL the talents, and not just some of them, but at the same time, they strive for quality right across the board, and not just small bits of it.
I work on the optimistic assumption, that if someone like John Williams can be associated with the Julliard School and the classical tradition, yet write something as hauntingly moving as the theme from "Schindler's List" or as creepily appropriate as the music for "Harry Potter," the same can be done anywhere, and failing to recognise talent by putting up social and musical boundaries, is actually counter-productive: possibly even destructive.
The great obstacle will always be snobbery, and that exists in America just as it does here. It can have serious implications for funding and broadcasting opportunities. I think, personally, that it was a scandal that some of the “organ establishment" turned against the Argentinian organist, Hector Olivera, simply because he played theatre organ. He is considered a little more acceptable now that he only plays classical organ and electronic instruments, yet as a musician, he can probably outplay most organists in the world in almost any genre or style.
I’m not quite sure snobbery is all about, unless it is people wanting to inflict their jaundiced and ill-informed opinions on others.
I recall a wrinkly old prune at a big-business charity garden party, who expected me to take her seriously, when she asked, “Did anything good ever come from outside London and the Home Counties?”
“Well,” I replied nonchalantly, “there’s Elgar and Shakespeare for a start.”
That got rid of her!
Anyway, let American organist Lyn Larsen have a word in our ears, followed by Richard Hills here in the UK, where you see him in action close-up. If anyone thinks that what they do is easy or lacking in quality, I challenge them to try it for themselves. Theatre organs are very complex machines to control.
Others are capable of grooming their hair after letting it down, as American organist Lew Williams demonstrates:-
When did you last hear that in an English restaurant?
Some English theatre organists did other things too:-
I believe that people will always respond to quality, irrespective of the genre or even the era, and quality entertainment is what the BBC should be about, rarther than pandering to superficial ratings.
MM
Dixon was sloppy?! Maybe in his latter years, yes, as is Kelsall now, when you`ve been playing for 6 hours a day, day in day out for almost 40 years, you do start to get tired. It`ll die out with this "elitist" attitude. The organ will fall off the shelf completely if you dont appeal to the majority. What is the use in booking an organist who may only get 50 -100 people in attendance, when you could have another organist play who will get an attendance of 3-500?!
Superficial ratings?! Ratings show you what people want to hear/see, as do the numbers of bums on seats at concert venues.
Richard Hills, Simon Gledhill, Jelanni Eddington, Lyn Larsen. I use to LOVE them all, I HATED the Blackpool style. I eventually got tired of the "american (rather george wright)" style organists, same arrangements note for note, same registrations every time, nothing spontanious, same music.
I was introduced to the ORIGINAL Blackpool style and Ive never looked back, theres more variety, its more entertaining, its clean, "simple" (you dont have to sit and go through dragged out introductions then over-arranged peices of music which become almost unrecognisable apart from the title).
People dont want to have to listen to everything in detail and pick things out, they want to be entertained, they want to be involved in the music.
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Dance Macabre - Saint-Saens, it is then!
I find many OE programmes dull, and then we have awful request shows where they dig up Reggie Dixon. Thank heavens that OE sometimes covers the American Organists, who really know how to light up a Wurlitzer.
Try this for perfection in transcription-playing, with music by Leroy Anderson: possibly the wealthiest organist ever, with such hits as "Blue Tango" and "Sleigh Ride."
Quite a large house organ don't you think?
MM
Would it not occur to you that people request Reginald Dixon because that is what they want to hear?! The organ will NOT get anywhere unless you give the public what they want, hence why Dixon was so popular, he gave people EXACTLY what they wanted.
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Oh please!
It was a complete mish-mash of international ideas, from Schulze through to the worsts aspects of orchestral excess. It bankrupt the company that built it, and they didn't have much of a pedigree to start with.
It is nothing more than a collection of organs scattered around a very large auditorium, all controlled from a vast, electro-mechanical telephone exchange and a ridiculous console which must be a nightmare.
I have heard recordings and I don't really want to hear any more. I have talked to people who knew the organ, and I've talked to people who know the organ now.
Yes, it has worth, like any vast musical-engineering project, but it still reminds of that film, where hundreds of children pound away at pianos scattered around a vast room. I'm just surprised that Howard Hughes didn't have a hand in its' construction!
What is the MUSICAL point other than to make a lot of noise in a lot of different places at the same time?
Much the same could be said of the Lord & Taylor (Wanamaker) organ, which I have heard in the flesh. At least that one works and is now in good voice, but again, it is more noise than music.
Neither of these organs are in the same class as the huge Skinner at Wolseley Hall, Yale, and that probably goes for West Point also. The Yale Skinner is a masterpiece of the genre, and whilst it may now be unfashionable, it has a certain musical integrity which is sadly lacking in the monsters mentioned above.
Unless it is a theatre style instrument, the organ should not be regarded as a musical synthesiser!
MM
Shows how much you know about the atlantic city organ!
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The organ was restored by Micheal Mcdonald of glasgow in september 2007. Its currently being used a few times a year for concerts.
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Yes there are quite a few 32' manual stops around the world. Atlantic City only had one manual 32' which was the Sub Principal on the Great. I'm really surprised that there aren't any other 32' manuals on this organ.
Sydney Town Hall, Australia has the 32' Contra Bourdon, and the Melbourne Town Hall, Australia has a 32' Contra Tromba (or something like) on the Great and a 32' Contra Violone on the Swell since the Schantz rebuild in 2000.
JA
Swell-Choir Fagottto 32ft on the midmer losh as well.
So it has a reed and a flue at 32ft on the manuals
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If the church was big enough, It would have to be something along the lines of the Wanamaker organ and the Midmer losh, preferably the M.L.
http://www.acchos.org/html/main_organ_reg_...list7index.html
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we all have our partialities its true but a world class organ like atlantic city is hardly bad taste
it is excellent
the effort to craft it alone
thoughtless words cant detract from it its dignity
The building is massive, at the time of its opening it was the largest indoor open space in the world, with a volume of over 15 million cubic ft.
The point of it being so big it to fill teh hall with sound, and to play for every even held in the building. It was used during idoor helicopter flying, horse racing, football, baseball, netball, tennis, athletics, ice hockey, ice skating, figure skating, stage shows, pegeants, conventions, exibitions, meetings, it was even used when the U.S army occupied the building during WWII, as a marching band.
The point of its 64ft was to add a bit of extra "ground" to it. Its sound has to reach all the way to the back of the room, 500ft away, and it has to fill the space. The room is 350 ft wide, 500ft long and 140ft high and held over 40,000 seated. Its definetly a massive acheivement. Only a few people, if any, are still alive today who heard this instrument at its full extent. Those who have heard it have said, its the best thing they have ever heard.
Its 64ft isnt all diaphone pipes or dulzian pipes, only the bottom 22 pipes are diaphones becuase the diaphones speak quicker than the reeds. So its a single stop called the 64ft Dulzian. The transition between the two types of pipes isnt noticed.
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Yes it is quite interesting.
I was reading on the ACCHOS website a couple of days ago, that when Midmer-Losh were installing the organ they had problems with the bricks in the ceiling falling down to the floor because of the shaking that the 64' (and presumably the 128' resultant) caused.
JA
Yes, they also had problems with rivets shaking loose in the roof beams. What i would love to know is how does that organ sound it its new acoustic?
The Organist Entertains
in The Organ
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Jean Martyn is playing organ (and she is most certainly entertaining on tv) .She is playing a yamaha EL900 organ. If it was hammond, or classical she was playing she wouldnt have got through, people wouldnt have stood for it . Jean has been touring the UK, Europe and the US for 30 years playing piano, and organ,. She plays in classical, light, theatre, boogie woogie, rock n roll, jazz and pop styles. She has played for celebrities several times, including royalty, and has appeared on the bbc several times too.
"Personally I would have thought we had more than enough organists in this country already !" whats that suppose to mean?