Barry Jordan
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Posts posted by Barry Jordan
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My recollection of the Chamade in question is that it could be duplexed to several neighbouring parishes, let alone divisions, and remain audible! (Was it not the late Gordon Reynolds who quipped that the famous medieval (forget exact date) instrument at Winchester could have been used to accompany nave services at Salisbury?!)
There is a Phoenix toaster in a church in Burnley that has a Tuba on the swell, the drawing of which activates the swell unison off on the other swell stops allowing a Tuba solo on the swell, accompanied by the great plus any swell stops (minus the Tuba of course) through the swell to great coupler.
Gosh how useful. If Bach had had one of those, he'd have been able to write truly great music.
Bloody tracker action.
Barry -
Knock knock.
Who's there?
Knock knock.
Who's there?
Knock knock.
Who's there?
Knock knock.
Who's there?
Knock knock.
Who's there?
Knock knock.
Who's there?
Philip Glass
It's just a joke....
B
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Were they that old fashioned? It's ten years or so since I last spun my copy of their recording of the Bach Double Violin Concerto, as it rests in the (domestic) loft with the rest of my vinyl. However, I seem to remember the outer mvts. being pretty crisp, brisk and exciting.
Yes. But modern instruments, high pitch and plenty of vibrato. But I liked them.
B
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In the Bach of my streaming consciousness, I think the words "Krebs" and "Orgel" mean much the same there as they do here.
"Krebs" is a composer, and something you eat, and "Orgel" is a musical instrument, and refers to no part of the body whatsoever, that word being, as in English, "Organ" except for that bit which everyone things of in English when you say the word "organ", which is rather "Glied", meaning "member" - oh this is complicated. But my son had teachers in primary school called "Frau Glied" and "Frau Brust". Probably just as well that it was primary school.
I HAVE heard of I Musici. I have even heard them. Old fashioned, but good.
Cheers
B
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Many thanks MM - have sent you a PM. If the book got banned, that's the best selling device of all!
Back to my trawling the archives here.
Thought for the day:
Is it my imagination or do organists generally have a better developed sense of humour than many other species of musician? Hmmmmmmm . Could it be something to do with putting up with corny and inexhaustible supplies of wisecracks about organs? Sigh......
Jenny
You mean, of the "What's worse than lobsters on your piano?" sort? Yes, possibly. One of the reasons I moved to a German-speaking country.
B
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Carlo Curley.... there is a quite popular German organist with similar body shape...and years ago there was the joke going around, that they have invented the concave radiating manual keyboard for him...
Eisi? I hadn't heard this, but it's funny.
B -
Well, who mentioned Harrison? I know I didn't.....
But there was Hill, too, and also Lewis.
B
Why would one want to imitate the English organ? Because if you are looking for an instrument on which you can play Reger AND Franck, you really can't do better, even if neither are "authentic", that terrible word, which is in danger of reducing the possible repertoire of any instrument at all to almost nothing. What can you really play authentically on a modern Steinway? Even Rachmaninov wouldn't recognise the beast. And Brahms wouldn't have recognised Rachmaninov's piano either.
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Should I really? Well, here goes.
In the pictures you can see the setters for the combinations very well. In this case they are little drawstops.
You can set up up to 5 registrations. These are then activated by pressing the appropriate combination pistons or pedals - you see these very well in picture no. 5. Normally they would be cancelled again by a button labelled "HR" (Handregister) or "Auslöser", which strangely enough I do not see. There is unfortunately no close-up of the row of pistons under the first manual, which is probably where it is lurking.
Sometimes the "Auslöser" is a sort of general cancel, whereas you have to press "HR" in order to get going... you have to watch out for this.
If you are playing, for example, on combination 3, you can add stops to the registration by drawing the appropriate stop on that level - that is, not using the rocker tablet, but the green drawstop "3" above the stop you want. (You can do this with the "glass box system too, of course, if you have someone standing by to do it).
The row of pistons directly above the 4th manual can be used in order to remove couplers from the crescendo - a Gt to Ped which comes on too soon can be a real nuisance when playing Reger, for example. This piston can then be released when the coupler is needed.
I can't see what is behind the music desk, but these are likely to be "Zungenabsteller", by means of which reed stops can be turned off so that they do not sound in the Walze either - a real boon if you've been sloppy about tuning your reeds.
The crescendo pedal was usually set by the builder. Modern combination systems usually allow for programming at least 4 different crescendos. But I've never actually played an organ on which more than one had actually been set up. Theoretically it could be useful, I suppose.
I think "Walze" is more of a slang term, incidentally. "Walzen" means to roll something out flat, a steam roller is a "Dampfwalze", for example. Builders tend not to use the term.
Divisional combinations are indeed a rarity. Our new organ will have them, but that is because I grew up with them and like them, because I find that they are useful in service playing, and also in playing Reger, for example. Germans tend to use up lots of Generals instead. It's a question of what you're used to. Now that English organs are all the rage amongst younger Germans, I imagine that they will become more common here. The combination systems used here nowadays are pretty universally made by Laukhuff or Heuss. Probably the front runner is Heuss's MP 92, which can be delivered to provide either 4000 or 10 000 generals. They work exactly like the equivalents by SSOS or anyone else - set up your combination, push the setter button, go away, come back later, all gone.....
Just remains to be said that the "free combinations" were of course pneumatic - quite a luxury, to have adjustable combinations on a pneumatic instrument. That made them very bulky, of course, so that even a fairly modest console tends to be look pretty complicatd from behind:
http://www.gewalcker.de/SpieltischeWeb/images/1757o2.jpg
Cheers
Barry
and whether they affect everything, including couplers, as our own General Pistons would.MM
In picture No 4 you can see that the three couplers (bottom row on the right) are also equipped with setter draw knobs (four for each rocker tab)
Cheers
B
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I think most English people get thrown off Piporg-l.....something to do with American academia I think....no sense of irony.
MM
Really? I never have been. Makes me feel a bit left out.
But then, I'm not properly English, am I, being a colonial. Perhaps theymake exceptions.
B -
Hi Nigel,
The organ is by Ennio Bonifazi and was built in 1630. The CD was released in 1999 and is played by Czech organist Jiri Lecian who, from what I can read of the Italian on the inside front cover, was at one time a pupil of Fernando Germani at the "Conservatorio di Santa Cecilia di Roma".
The other thing with those photos I psoted earlier is that they don't give away the somewhat nice decoration on the case.
I think that the one track that gives this organ at its best is ths first track (which is CM Widor's "Marcia Pontificalis" from his "Sinfonia no. 1 in D minor, Op. 13").
If you want I will digitise that track and send you a link by PM for your benefit only: I somehow think that if I made that track open to all then I might find myself in breach of the forum rules. But it is great to listen to.
Dave
It would of course be absolutely impossible to play the "Marche Pontificale" on an Italian organ of 1630.
I would surmise that a new or newer organ resides inside one half of the case, whereas the other case contains either the unrestored rest of a divided organ, or the rest of the second organ - or even nothing at all, any more.
Cheers
Barry
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Excellent.
Oops, somebody nudged the camera half-way through!
John
After abiut three months it started to sag a little........
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Good morning and welcome....
this may perhaps amuse you for a minute or so.....
http://www.aktion-neue-domorgeln-magdeburg.de/webcam.php
Cheers
Barry
The voicers arrive on Tuesday.
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4 oboes and more... is that due to the dedication to short-cup reeds of those Orgelbewegung people?
This should make it's way into my calendar! Thanks, Barry
Charly,
I checked my score and found that I had exaggerated - it's only 3 (or actually 2 plus english horn). 2 Flutes, 2 clarinets, 2 Bassons, Timps and strings.
Cheers
Barry
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The Casella is indeed a nice thing, but needs large orchestra. What about Anton Heiller's 'Organ Concerto? I do not know the size of the orchestra neede. But he also wrote a concerto for positive organ, harpsichord and chamber orchestra (all Doblinger edition).
Charly,
I played the Heiller for my Konzertexamen. The Hochschule was not pleased, it cost a fortune. It needs flocks of oboes (4, if I remember correctly) and lots of other wind - and a very good conductor. The last movement particularly is a cracker though.
The Jongen will be played at the dedicatory concert of the new organ here (18th May 2008, attendance compulsory.....) soloist Martin Haselböck, conducted by me.
There's a recording by Pierre Pincemaille, organ sounds excellent, orchestral playing seriously scrappy.
Cheers
Barry
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When I ordered my copy of Glass's Mad Rush, I saw that there seems now to be a company called CheterNovello - have the two houses become as one? A website address of www.chesternovello.com is indicated but seems not to exist. Does anybody know what's happening?
Peter
Yes it does, I've just looked at it!
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Except that this is not quite the same, Barry!
In 1965, H&H installed a new piston system on the organ of Exeter Cathedral. There were two black panels with a few hundred miniature circular switches, which could be pulled (or pushed) into one of three positions. As you say, R&D (and JWWW - and probably many other builders) provided these piston-setter panels. Walkers (and occasionally R&D) often placed them behind the music desk, which was less than practical if one wished to change combinations during a service.
However, I do not regard these in the same category as a system which places three or four switches immediately adjacent to each stop or stop key, simply to operate two or three free combinations. For one thing, I find that such consoles look incredibly messy and for another, it is surely more conveninet to group all the switches on a panel in its own small cupboard beside the console if, of course, there is room.
This I realise; I was attempting to explain that I was aware that German organists did not normally require their instruments to provide for kaleidoscopic changes of registration, 'colour' Psalms or stir the soul of the listener during Stanford's For lo, I raise up - for example. However, the time at which point I had to go to play for a full practice at the Minster was rapidly approaching and so I had little time to think about the details of the post.
Well, the principle on which they work is identical. Essentially they are duplicate groups of stop controls on another circuit. Of course the little coloured lolly sticks are messy, and nobody builds them any more. But they had the advantage of being easy to set up, easy to see, and, since they were not intended to replace registrants, of being manipulable while actually playing.
"Kropf", generally known as "Charly", has a Schnitger organ (yes, Neuenfelde), so, no, it diesn't have a combination system. Although in England it might have, by now.....
Cheers
B
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DJB managed perfectly well at Gloucester without them, Cochereau did not have them (as far as I can remember) and, for that matter, I do not have them. On a Sunday, I improvise in various styles - often on as many as eight occasions during the day, if sorties are included. Personally, I have never felt the need for them! Hand registration, eight divisional pistons, eight general pistons and a few different memory levels have, to-date proven quite satisfactory.
Certainly general pistons are useful; but I still do not understand why German organ builders make them with such an unnecessarily complicated layout. Why bother with providing two or three little switches to each stop key, just to have two or three general combinations - why not simply provide one setter piston and between eight and sixteen general pistons - possibly with divisional pistons, too?
However, I agree with you regarding divisional pistons - I am interested to note that you suggest these to your colleagues. I understand that German organists play their organs differently to English organists - for example, their type of choral accompaniment generallyrequires a different approach to the English 'cathedral' style (for want of a better word). I realise that this is a generalisation but I think that there is some truth in it.
These "free combinations" haven't benn used for years - in fact, English and American builders used them too, but the fact that they looked different obscures the fact. Or have you never played an organ with little "soldiers" in a drawer next to the organ, or complicated setters, Rushworth style, in a cupboard behind the console? If not, it's possibly because the English update their consoles all the time, whereas Germans like to restore the consoles to their stone-age condition. Setter buttons as we know them only really became universal when solid state technology started to be affordable. Most builders over here now equip their instruments with the ubiquitous Heuss stuff, which starts with stepper and 4 000 generals. 10 years ago, having 64 was really a lot. May I ask how old you are, Sean?
As to your second question, Germany does not actually have a tradition of accompanied choral music at all, unless ccompanied by orchestra, of course. Or continuo.
Cheers
Barry
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I have a CD of the late Donald Joyce playing some of Philip Glass's organ music, who is a minimalist composer. Don't go looking for great streams of Reger, it isn't there. it's actually pretty simple in terms of harmonic progressions etc, but in terms of effect, very interesting. I bought copies of two of his scores, Dance IV, something like 42 pages of Arpeggios in contrary motion and so on, but his "Mad Rush" I really like very much. Pretty sad, and it works excellently on the organ. The sort of stuff that you can literally sit and play from sight, but a difinite change from the usual.
I wonder if anyone else plays anything by him?
Richard.
Can you tell me who publishes "Mad Rush"? I looked for it on the site of my usual online suppler and came up blank.
Thanks
B
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I was curios about the two celeste stops in the swell - have you thought (of course you have...) about having one of these on the Positive?
I like the presence of stops with higher pitches in the pedal - maybe there are rather few pieces of written music that demand them, but they are so fine for improvisation, und much better than a Sw4'/Ped coupler...
You told us that you will get the Kowalshyn levers - on each division? On the IFO recording of the Lausanne instrument by Fisk, at the Duruflé toccata, the Recit seems to be a bit late and its attack a bit muddy...
Anyway, are you willing to tell us more about the action of Magdeburg and the involved solutions to control 20 and more stops per division? How many chests, how many pallets per note....?
Thanks
Charly
Hi Charly,
well, there is a vox Coelestis on the positiv. It is the quietest celeste. I wanted it like a Hill Vox angelica, and I wanted it on the swell, with the louder, more french one on the positive, but I lost. I could have done without the Voce umana. But that is what happens when you have a whole army of "Sachverständigen".
There are Kowalshyn machines for HW and pos. All the normal couplers work through them. The octave couplers are electric, which was not what I wanted. The awful secret about Lausanne is, that the recording was made from the electric console. There the swell is in the central part of the case directly above the console, whereas the HW and the positive divisions are in the towers, the pedal is behind the organ. If the microphones are concentrated on the towers, I suppose the swell could sound late. But actually its action is extremely direct.
There are two chests per division here, with some off-sets. We will see how well it all works. It is too big, of course.
Cheers
Barry
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I must say I admire Adrian for expending the time to reply to comments on this topic. I agree that we must now look forward and be constructive with our comments. Otherwise Adrian might go the same way as the much missed SJF.
Ed
Amen. But if you haven't got an instrument at the moment, you've probably got a lot of spare time. (Joke, you know).
Still waiting for your programme......
Cheers
Barry
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However, if you wish to hear some of the very FINEST organs built since around 1970 then America would be a very good starting point.
Yes, indeed. The interesting thing is the wide range of styles evident in American organ building, which are not however slavishly copied but serve as models for flights of creativity and imagination. One of the most beautiful organs I have ever had the joy of playing a recital on was certainly this one:
http://www.frittsorgan.com/opus018.htm
Look at that case work, clearly based on Stellwagen, St. Marien, Stralsund - but note the swell. The whole thing is unbelievably versatile, colourful and singing, with a stunningly responsive action, crisp, but not hard.
If anyone's interested, you might like to read an article I wrote for piporg-l which concerns itself mainly with organ building in America today; you can find it at:
http://www.albany.edu/piporg-l/FS/bj.html
On Sunday I played a recital on the 6-year-old Marcussen in the cathedral in Wesel on the lower Rhine. Nowhere near the same quality, I'm afraid. Sloppy voicing, slow electric couplers, non-functional slider motors and a very temperamental combination system - and worst of all, 60 stops in a case which has room for 45 at the most. An expensive mistake.
However - America not only has possibly the best organs being built today, it also has the worst.
Cheers
Barry
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I think we said 2.00 pm.
Ian Crabbe
A single note on a single stop? How can this happen on a slider chest? Is this on an electric off-set?
B
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I failed to find a mention of the organ on the church's website, (but was interested to read about their three handbell choirs
)http://www.pipesounds.org/Dream.htm
Best
B
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Just to clarify, I have no connection with the HW product. In fact I have never seen or used Hauptwerk; I've been arguing about principle here. It strikes me that the HW project, in computer terms, is in the "emulator" category and the "calcant" provision is completely understandable in those terms in addition to its, possibly subjective, musical worth.
Michael
I too must confess that I have no experience with HW, although it certainly interests me. But I assume that one is once again at the mercy of loudspeaker sytems, often the weakest part of such sampled set-ups anyway. And then: these organs are no sounding into "wrong" acoustical surroundings - please don't tell me that these have been sampled too - and, more importantly, are being played from on-off keys, are they not? Which particularly in the case of an organ like a Silbermann could really make a huge difference, since the touch is so responsive. A calcant bell doesn't reduce that problem to irrelevancy, I'm afraid.
B
Barry
B
B
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Philip Glass
in The Organ
Posted
Hang on, I did say it was just a joke.....I rather like Glass's music, as it happens, was mad about Reich and Riley when I was a student, and I even studied with Feldman for a while.
But there is a serious point behind this, and that is simply that composers like Reich and Glass use the principle of repetition for a purpose which is not to be found in the music of Mozart, whose principle is development, motivic, tonal, whatever. Things which don't interest Glass. Feldman famously said "I like music which lets you hear what you want to hear", which for him happened to include Mozart and Josquin; music was for him "bubbles on the suerface of silence", a beautiful description of this kind of aesthetic.
So don't get your knickers in a twist!
Cheers
b